Bad cafe culture?

[spanky]

Idly surfing when I should have been working, I came across this on the BBC website. Having been to Paris only twice (but coming for a third time next month for my honeymoon!), obviously I can't comment on the incidence or not of "poor or non-existent welcomes", "lack of basic courtesy or reactivity" and so on. But I'd be interested to hear France-based (and other) egulleteers' perceptions on this article. Have people noticed that service has been getting poorer? Have the numbers of cafes, brasseries etc been visibly dwindling over the past 15 years? And would an institute and/or charter of quality make much difference?

Cheers

Spanky

[Bux]

... incidence or not of "poor or non-existent welcomes", "lack of basic courtesy or reactivity" and so on. But I'd be interested to hear France-based (and other) egulleteers' perceptions on this article. Have people noticed that service has been getting poorer? Have the numbers of cafes, brasseries etc been visibly dwindling over the past 15 years? And would an institute and/or charter of quality make much difference?

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The answer to your last question is "probably not." From what I remember of the 60's which is about as far back as I go in France, no one ever went to a cafe for the welcome or the service. One assumed the "garcon" would be rude and the service surly. It anything it was part of the charm. Times change and the institutions of one era, don't always serve the next as well. Fast food has made tremendous inroads into France as has a faster paced life. It's not a pace that's going to disappear in France, Spain, Italy or any place that wants to compete in the first world industy and trade.

[nanuq]

We stopped at a few cafe's on our recent trip to Paris, mainly around St Germain. I had no issue with service, but the food was unexciting. Mediocre Salad Nicoise ( I had a better one at a tourist trap in Montmartre) or Croque Monsieur, with very few other options at lunch, unless you want a steak and frites.

Mind you, I noticed that Steak Tartare was the special at many of them, and most of the locals were ordering that, so maybe we just needed to broaden our lunch horizons.

[Bux]

Although cafes are often attached to brasseries, they are almost universally not places to take food seriously. That said, we had some nice salads this afternoon at a little cafe this afternoon. Locals will usually know what's best at a local cafe. Indeed our cafe visit was at a cafe on rue Montorgueil for reason of nostalgia on the part of someone who briefly lived in the neighborhood ten years ago. Noted changes in the neighborhood were that the shops no longer all closed for lunch and that the vendors no longer hawked their wares out loud on the street. Chanterelles were on sale for 6.00 € a kilo! They were from Portugal, but they looked good, seemed fresh and had an enticing aroma.

[bleudauvergne]

It's true that we don't normally see smiling happy young waiters in colorful polo shirts, khakis and white sneakers bouncing up and greeting us with enthusiastic smiles the instant we approach the cafe.

It boils down to a question of when the service starts for the French. You won't be ignored in a cafe if you are patient. Seat yourself, don't wait for a greeting, as it is not customary.

The waiters are usually in constant motion and busy all the time. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a waiter taking a break. If they are talking to another customer, part of their job, they will finish their discussion, as is the French custom in more places than cafes. (they also do this at the grocery store, butcher, baker, etc.)

Here it is completely proper for them not to address you at all until they are taking the order - in most cases they won't even make eye contact to acknowledge your presence before they serve you, which some people interpret as ignoring. It's really just the custom. If you accept this and don't take it personally, your experience will be generally more agreeable.

If you get wound up feeling ignored and act unpleasant when they do get to your table, you'll usually get the same coming back at you.

It's also generally understood that if they are busy they will not take more time than absolutely necessary to take your order, unless, of course they are serving a regular customer, and in that case, they may stop to exchange words and keep their regular happy.

The efforts to "improve service" are most likely rhetoric in reaction to a memo coming from somewhere, in my opinion. It's true that the French becoming more aware of the way the customs here are interpreted by international visitors, and the article show that. But whether it's going to make much difference in the long run, I'm not sure. The problems come in when people expect things that are not in the French way of doing things, people react with anger, and then both sides are insulted.

[John Talbott]

Idly surfing when I should have been working, I came across this on the BBC website. Having been to Paris only twice (but coming for a third time next month for my honeymoon!), obviously I can't comment on the incidence or not of "poor or non-existent welcomes", "lack of basic courtesy or reactivity" and so on. But I'd be interested to hear France-based (and other) egulleteers' perceptions on this article. Have people noticed that service has been getting poorer? Have the numbers of cafes, brasseries etc been visibly dwindling over the past 15 years? And would an institute and/or charter of quality make much difference?

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Must have been a slow news day.

1. No, just 15 days ago I sat with a fellow eGulleteer (French) for several hours on the terrasse of a cafe, nursing our cafes, chatting and we were treated very well.

2. Yes, they are getting fewer.

3. I suppose consciousness raising cannot hurt but I cannot see too much to come from it.

[Bux]

One assumed the "garcon" would be rude and the service surly. If anything it was part of the charm.

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Perhaps that needs to be put in context. "Rude" in contrast to the very formally polite social ettiquette that guides most of public life in Paris. The formal greetings that are de rigeur upon entering a neighborhood bakery shop or restaurant are not part of the large sidewalk cafe life. One must say hello before placing an order for a loaf of bread, or being seated in a restaurant, but one just takes seat in a cafe and orders from the waiter without any social acknowledgment. That always struck me as so removed from the conventions that govern most of interpersonal contact in Paris ande consequently as a rude and gruff relationship that was independent of anything to do with the way the garcon actually carried out his job. "Garcon" is also a term that's particularly not politically correct. One never called a restaurant waiter "boy," yet that was how one called the cafe server no matter his age or professional demeanor.

It was an entrenched and institutionalized relationship and I see no reason why there's anything the waiter could do to make a difference. Actually if anyone has a gripe, it's the waiter. Any expected improvement in the relationship might be expected to start with the attitude on the public.

[spanky]

Apologies for not replying earlier--bitching about the lack of security in the new Scottish Parliament building has taken up my time, I'm afraid.

Thanks to those who replied for taking the time to consider this story. It wasn't really a slow news day, what with all the hunting protesters shoving their way into the House of Commons. Perhaps it was a case of licking wounds with some Franco-bashing. Who knows?

When we're in Paris next month, we fully intend to make as much use as possible of Cafe Vavin, which is just around the corner from our hotel and which I'm sure won't charge 14 euros each for our breakfasts (fingers crossed!) as the hotel will. We've eaten there before (not so great for an evening meal but I'm told perfectly fine for a coffee and some viennoiserie) and the waiters are preoccupied but not rude, surly or otherwise (especially if you speak a wee bit of French). That's fine by me. I've found myself scalded by the too cool for school attitude of, say, Starbucks employees before now.

I suppose decent places find their clientele and rubbish places go to the wall. I just find it a little odd that people feel the problem--if there is one--of getting people back into these places needs an institute and charter. Lip service, perhaps... Still, I watched "La Maman et La Putain" not too long ago and still harbour rather romantic ideas of having a cafe on the terrasse of Les Deux Magots...

Cheers all

Spanky

[Ptipois]

Ah, the Paris café waiter!

I hope nobody ever changes him. He's not rude, he is brisk. True, he is constantly at work. This attitude - brisk, snappy, sometimes snappish, sometimes gruffly cheerful - is the STYLE of the Paris waiter and I don't believe it ever was any different since the beginning of Paris cafés in the early 19th century.

The Paris café waiter's style is more than service, it's a rhythm, it's a sort of dance, it's a special kind of humor, sometimes witty, sometimes coarse, most of the time endearingly terrible or plainly infuriating. Cracking a bad joke in the course of three seconds while slapping a coaster onto a table and banging a glass of beer on top of it, spilling a few drops, is the heart of Paris itself. Don't let anyone destroy this.

Sometimes the briskness goes over the top, just like the beer, and the waiter is very rude and unpleasant. This is rare, just as rare as, say, a rude restaurant waiter, a rude pâtissier, a rude shoe vendor (much rarer than a rude taxi driver). Then the Parisian waitee just says so and fights back. That's part of the folklore. Cafés were originally founded by people from the rough mountainous center of France, Auvergne and especially Aveyron. Gruff people, with a long past of poverty, counting every sou, but opening up their hearts once someone treats them like human beings. "L'avarice de l'Auvergnat", Alexandre Vialatte wrote, "n'a d'égale que sa générosité." Which means: the Auvergnat's thriftiness is only equalled by his generosity. I found this to be very true. The severe-looking man brooding behind his zinc counter while making coffee, with the 18-year-old German shepherd dozing on the tiled floor nearby, may hold treasures of generosity if you go to him with the same kindness that you expect from him. The waiter may be just the same if you ask him for information, for a location on a map, for the dates of a flea market. Just like everywhere else in the world. Paris café manners are a style, this should be remembered.

[Bux]

Ptispois has said best what I was thinking. I might have said "brusque" rather than brisk, but it is a style and nothing I've said should have been taken to suggest I thought it was a style that could or should be "improved."

[Ptipois]

Ptispois has said best what I was thinking. I might have said "brusque" rather than brisk, but it is a style and nothing I've said should have been taken to suggest I thought it was a style that could or should be "improved."

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Oh, don't worry. I was referring to the dubious possibility that Parisian waiters might be "trained" into being artificially smiley. Not to your post precisely.

[MysticMilt]

Then the Parisian waitee just says so and fights back.

This is the part that worries me most, being a person of only a tenuous grasp of the French language. I have no problem with brusque waiters in a café, but I worry about how to handle it if I do encounter some genuinely bad service and I lack the linguistic skills to "fight back," as it were.

Don't get me wrong: I'm doing my best to brush up on my French, and I will make a valiant effort to speak it in as many situations as possible, but I do have low-grade anxiety over being defenseless against some rotten guy who loathes Americans.

Suggestions? Or are my concerns baseless?

[bleudauvergne]

Don't get me wrong: I'm doing my best to brush up on my French, and I will make a valiant effort to speak it in as many situations as possible, but I do have low-grade anxiety over being defenseless against some rotten guy who loathes Americans.

Suggestions? Or are my concerns baseless?

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Milt, don't worry. You don't have to speak French to understand the customs here. Understanding what the customary exchange here between waiters and clients in a cafe is really enough to keep you from feeling singled out. The waiters treat everyone with the same indifference...

[mrsadm]

I was a bit taken aback at their demeanor when I first visited Paris. But then I am used to the American painfully cheerful greeting, "Hello, I'm Amy, I'll be your server today!"

[Druckenbrodt]

The thing about France is this (am borrowing this acute observation from my boyfriend): whereas some cultures and economies are geared towards the consumer, France's is geared towards the producer.

So if you are a consumer in France, don't expect to get things as and when and how you want them. And if you are a producer in France, you can expect a generous holiday allowance and the option to say 'no' to any customer request that is too tiresome to fulfil.

Once you understand this, life is a lot less frustrating, and you realise not to take things personally if a waiter is a bit slack. It also means that if you work in France, you'll have more spare time to sit in cafes being ignored by the waiters.

[Carlsbad]

I tried to stay out of this one, but I finally have to weigh in.

I have found service in France to be equal or superior to that in the U.S., and certainly much more personal. Their pharmacies are like ours were 20 years ago. You take the prescription in, the pharmacist comes out, talks to you, gets the medications, tells you how to take them, and you are out in about 5 minutes or less. And you'll pay much less for each medication. It's nothing like going to one of our huge Savons or Rite-Aids, where it takes an hour sometimes to get something filled, and costs an arm and a leg.

The people in the shops are extremely courteous, and they greet you formally nearly every time you enter. If you greet them, they will treat you well. Restaurant waiters are well-trained and professional. Bellmen in hotels are often young and engaging. Bartenders in good places know how to mix drinks and chat in several languages.

Cafe service is fine, if you understand that a waiter is serving a lot of people and has little time for chit chat or explanation of the menu. Just be ready to order when they get there- you will have ample time to look at the menu. And ask for the check a few minutes before you want it. And stay as long as you want.