Taillevent Merged topics

[Steve Martin]

He had his blue dress short out under his blazer.

Sounds like an electrical fault while cross dressing.

A TV, perhaps.

[John Talbott]

Let me address the khaki part of Derek's query. French men don't often wear the type/tone of khakis we do; pants are either darker or very much lighter. Clean, pressed, tight, blue, designer jeans on women work; black jeans with a leather jacket on men work.

As for dress in restaurants, I'll come back to something I said days ago; it depends on where you're eating. At the new Chez Catherine, everyone has suits, white shirts and ties (at the old one almost no one did); at Tante Marguerite or the Restaurant of the Polytechniciens ditto whereas at the other two Tantes it's not so.

Carlsbad and Busboy have it right about shoes and shorts and sandals. But who are we kidding; our accents usually give us away. My street commercants may mistake me for English or Belgian or Dutch but not for French. For security and other reasons I don't carry a wallet or map or guide that's visible; everything is in a (French) briefcase. I invariably wear a jacket (formless light weight or leather or elegant (French) blue blazer) unless its over 30 degrees. But under it I might wear a solid (French) tee-shirt. Are they fooled?; no way. But sporting khakis, white running shoes, Burberry raincoats is worse.

Two tips; one, look outside and see what folks in the quartier are wearing, remembering that it always gets much warmer in the afternoon; and second, a quick trip to C&A will tell you what's Eurotrashable.

[Zingano]

You'll feel better overdressed than underdressed, so long as you don't go too far. My suggestions would be a simple, loose cut, good quality grey suit for sir, ideally Nehru collar, worn with a plain white shirt, also Nehru collar, no tie. Cufflinks should be platignum and expensive. Madam should wear simple black, V-necked dress (yours looked good) with her best platignum & diamond necklace. Don't wear too much make-up, and avoid lipstick and perfume - you don't want to spoil that food.

Both make sure you have room for a little expansion!

And if I might risk upsetting some Americans, here is how I spot you

- shirts tucked in

- check or plaid shirts

- slacks (Europeans wear jeans or trousers, never slacks. Don't ask me how I know the difference, I do.)

- short shorts (my husband and I call them American shorts. Give them up, they only suit you if you're 6ft 2 and skinny as a green bean. And you're at the beach.)

- socks with sandals

- white socks with sandals

- white trainers with socks with shorts

- bouffant hairdos (women)

- no hairdos at all (men)

- old fashioned consumer durables (video cameras and the like)

Apologies in advance. Now have a return pop at the English ;-)

[MysticMilt]

While dressing up to go to dinner is a no-brainer for me, the thing that's a bit challenging about dressing up everywhere is that as a tourist you're going to be doing the typical touristy things. Your days are filled with visiting museums and monuments galore, doing lots and lots of walking, being out in the sun (and heat, during the summer months). Tennis shoes and jeans may not be chic, but they're utilitarian and comfortable.

I may look fabulous in a sleek pantsuit and kitten heels, but how much fun will I have if I have blisters at the end of the day? Surely there must be a happy medium between sloppy-but-comfortable and dashing-but-miserable, right?

[Busboy]

Apologies in advance. Now have a return pop at the English ;-)

Based on a week skiing in Courcheval, I spot British tourists by their sunburns and hangovers. Also, the funny way they stare at their plate when French food arrives (admittedly, a trait shared with many Americans).

[tony h]

conventional wisdom...says that wearing  jeans immediately marks one as "boorish American tourist"

really depends on the size of your arse

[Bux]

Who are all these people and why do they think they can presume to tell us what to wear is the question that keeps coming to mind. One doesn't have to read carefully to find contradictions and some very questionably subjective advice. Some of the sure ways to spot an American will more often than not get you an German or a Scandinavian. One thing to bear in mind is that differences in dress between social or economic groups within a country are as great as those between two EU members, more so perhaps. Dress in rural areas is quite different than what is worn in urban areas. Dress in any particular restaurant may be dependent on very local conditions in the neighborhood. I'd only add that I wouldn't be upset to be spotted as an American. I don't think I've ever wanted to pass as a European since my college days. At that time, it did seem to make it easier to meet American coeds. Then again they didn't have a clue. Since then it's had little appeal. The one thing we want to tell restaurateurs is that we've come a long way to eat here and that puts the burden on them to have made it worth our while. I'm afraid that's of little use in Paris only because it's not a unique situation, but elsewhere in France and Spain at least, we find we often get special attention as we eat with some enthusiasm and respect. We also tend not to be the sharpest or shlumpiest dressed diners wherever we are. I wear khakis or chinos a lot, all over the world, though I wouldn't pay the price I see Dockers selling for in France.

[wnissen]

I've always felt that the supposed comfort of jeans is massively overrated. Rough fabric, large seams, lots of rivets; they were originally designed for miners, guys who were constantly destroying their clothes because they were working around sharp rocks all the time. A pair of dress pants (slacks or trousers, whatever that means) and some sturdy walking shoes are far more comfortable. Plus, it will take an extra 2.5 seconds for the Parisians to identify you as a foreigner.

With respect to Taillevent, jacket and tie is sadly not required, and you will be stuck in a room with all the other Americans in any case. It's a very nice room with far fewer smokers, but it's the American room nonetheless. We saw a woman in one of those atheletic shirts thats actually not intended for athletic use, and she seemed to get the same perfect service as everyone else. However, the setting clearly demands fancy dress, in my opinion.

Walt

[sockettrousers]

I wear khakis or chinos a lot, all over the world, though I wouldn't pay the price I see Dockers selling for in France.

I wouldn't wear Dockers if they were given away. Certainly not to Trevillant. If you're making an effort to eat somewhere special, make an effort and dress for the occasion. It can't make things worse. If you're not comfortable being ultra smart, wear a linnen suit and a casual shirt (no, not a polo shirt). If you're really worried, carry a tie in your pocket just in case you are under dressed.

If you're a film star or a pop star, wear a tee shirt with your linnen suit - you can leave the tie at home in that case.

I'd try to avoid walt's walking shoes. Forget those awful penny loafers too - you don't want to look like a banker.

Madame should wear a simple frock and as many solitare diamonds as she has limbs.

[bloviatrix]

And if I might risk upsetting some Americans, here is how I spot you

- shirts tucked in

- check or plaid shirts

- slacks (Europeans wear jeans or trousers, never slacks. Don't ask me how I know the difference, I do.)

- short shorts (my husband and I call them American shorts. Give them up, they only suit you if you're 6ft 2 and skinny as a green bean. And you're at the beach.)

- socks with sandals

- white socks with sandals

- white trainers with socks with shorts

- bouffant hairdos (women)

- no hairdos at all (men)

- old fashioned consumer durables (video cameras and the like)

Apologies in advance. Now have a return pop at the English ;-)

It's interesting that to you these traits scream American to you. To me, many of them are signs of Germans. Particularly the short shorts. I've been seeing a lot of that on the subway this summer. It's hideous.

In regard to suggested dress codes when visiting the continent: everyone always says that wearing sneakers will get you outed as an American. And yet, all the Europeans wear sneakers here in NY. What's up with that? Do they think they blend in? Cause they don't.

Edited July 22, 2004 by bloviatrix (log)

[robyn]

jeans don't make it in any major city in the world (and even in the former case - you're talking about jeans that are accessorized very carefully).  They don't mark you as a "boorish American tourist" - just a boor

perhaps you'd like to check in with giorgio armani, who always seems to be wearing jeans, white tee shirt and a very stylish jacket.

If you (or anyone else) looks like Armani looked 20 years ago (or like the male models in this month's Esquire look today) - I give you a free pass . If you look like most middle aged guys - forget it. The main issue is whether one can carry a particular look. When it comes to a high end fashion look - most people (men and women - including me) can't. Robyn

[robyn]

Robyn: bad news. The untucked shirt look is bursting out across the pond, and a lot of men who don't look like a movie star or a model are adopting it.  Funny, that's how I used to dress for errand-running on a hangover.

I've seen the fashion write-ups (most recently in the NYT this week I think). But like I've said - it takes a person of a certain age and physique to pull off a high-fashion look and not look like an idiot. The male models I've seen are about 20-30 - 6'3" - 170 pounds - and gorgeous. If this describes any of you guys out there - I think it's the look for you . Robyn

[Bux]

I wouldn't wear Dockers if they were given away. Certainly not to Trevillant.

Or wherever. Personal choice in brands is not an issue. My point was to note that what might be considered a down market brand in the US, seems to be sold rather up market in France, not to endorse the brand or to propose chinos in five fork and spoon restaurants. I'm a rather casual person, but rarely find myself under dressed in top restaurants. Most people's dress prejudices are far too authoritatively expressed.

As MysticMilt has so well expressed, there's a big difference between dining at a top restaurant in Paris and going to the Musée Rodin or having a beer at a cafe in a residential neighborhood in Paris. This conversation seems to drift back and forth. Outside of Paris there are fewer and fewer restaurants where the French seem obligated to wear a tie. In Paris that obligation seems faltering as well. The American tourist who bothers to seek out these restaurants is usually not the most casually dressed one in my experience. The look that seems least respectful to a restaurant is the dark jacket and slacks, and white shirt without a tie.

[Bux]

It's interesting that to you these traits scream American to you. To me, many of them are signs of Germans. Particularly the short shorts. I've been seeing a lot of that on the subway this summer. It's hideous.

It is more the tourist look than the American look. I suspect that if one is in an area with heavy tourism coming for a particular country, one might learn equate the dress with the country. For me, socks and sandals, as worn by the busload of German pensioners dropped off at a Spanish monestary, never screams American. My French friends are far more likely to wear sandals with socks than my American friends as well. I'll swear it's a very European look.

[robyn]

While dressing up to go to dinner is a no-brainer for me, the thing that's a bit challenging about dressing up everywhere is that as a tourist you're going to be doing the typical touristy things. Your days are filled with visiting museums and monuments galore, doing lots and lots of walking, being out in the sun (and heat, during the summer months). Tennis shoes and jeans may not be chic, but they're utilitarian and comfortable.

I may look fabulous in a sleek pantsuit and kitten heels, but how much fun will I have if I have blisters at the end of the day? Surely there must be a happy medium between sloppy-but-comfortable and dashing-but-miserable, right?

No problem. We're basically talking about restaurant wear - not what one wears to do the obligatory 5 miles of tourist walking in a major city like New York, London or Paris. I frankly don't care if I look like a tourist when I'm in that 4th or 5th mile (although I try to avoid doing anything - like wearing expensive jewelry - that would make me a target). When it comes to evening and dinner at a nice place - with a cab to and from - I don't have to worry about blisters. Robyn

P.S. I don't think of this as an American vs. everyone else thing. When you're walking 5 miles a day - taking in sights - museums - whatever - you need comfortable clothes and shoes. Dressing for dinner is a totally different issue.

Edited July 23, 2004 by robyn (log)

[Bux]

I don't think of this as an American vs. everyone else thing. When you're walking 5 miles a day - taking in sights - museums - whatever - you need comfortable clothes and shoes. Dressing for dinner is a totally different issue.

I think a few of us, myself included, may have left confusing posts or at least posts subject to misinterpretation on this issue.

[Busboy]

While dressing up to go to dinner is a no-brainer for me, the thing that's a bit challenging about dressing up everywhere is that as a tourist you're going to be doing the typical touristy things. Your days are filled with visiting museums and monuments galore, doing lots and lots of walking, being out in the sun (and heat, during the summer months). Tennis shoes and jeans may not be chic, but they're utilitarian and comfortable.

I may look fabulous in a sleek pantsuit and kitten heels, but how much fun will I have if I have blisters at the end of the day? Surely there must be a happy medium between sloppy-but-comfortable and dashing-but-miserable, right?

No problem. We're basically talking about restaurant wear - not what one wears to do the obligatory 5 miles of tourist walking in a major city like New York, London or Paris. I frankly don't care if I look like a tourist when I'm in that 4th or 5th mile (although I try to avoid doing anything - like wearing expensive jewelry - that would make me a target). When it comes to evening and dinner at a nice place - with a cab to and from - I don't have to worry about blisters. Robyn

P.S. I don't think of this as an American vs. everyone else thing. When you're walking 5 miles a day - taking in sights - museums - whatever - you need comfortable clothes and shoes. Dressing for dinner is a totally different issue.

Though, in years of wandering through cities, including my own, I can neither remember nor imagine making it through the obligatory "tourist five" without ducking into one or another cafe, tratorria, pub, diner or restaurant for a bite and a dram. That thought pretty much always keeps me from dressing as badly as I do at home.

[Pan]

The look that seems least respectful to a restaurant is the dark jacket and slacks, and white shirt without a tie.

Least respectful? I don't get it. Are you describing a black leather jacket and blue jeans or a blazer and dark dress pants?

[robyn]

Though, in years of wandering through cities, including my own, I can neither remember nor imagine making it through the obligatory "tourist five" without ducking into one or another cafe, tratorria, pub, diner or restaurant for a bite and a dram.  That thought pretty much always keeps me from dressing as badly as I do at home.

Agreed. But in most cases where you'll have a big deal lunch - you'll have a reservation and dress accordingly. If it's not a big deal lunch - slacks/shirt/sweater/jacket in cool weather ought to do. FWIW - a lot of manufacturers make nice light/medium weight golf slacks for men and women. They look very presentable - and travel well. And ever since I was refused entry to Bouley because I was wearing sneakers (I think it was a 10 mile walk that day ) - I carry a nice pair of shoes in a bag - like a lot of women who work in big cities do.

When the temperature is over 80 during the day - all bets are off - particularly in places like the NE US - Europe - Canada - etc. - where many places are under- or un-airconditioned. I wear shorts. I don't mind suffering a bit for my art - but slogging through the Prado when it wasn't air-conditioned and it was 90 outside is too much for me. Those of us who live in the SE US - the most air-conditioned place in the world - really aren't used to sweating . (I just had a terrible image - a friend who gave an outdoor wedding for his daughter in Miami in January. It was unseasonably hot. He's one of these people who likes everything at about 68 degrees - and he sweated so much in his tux that he had black stains running down his shirt. All of us women in little nothings of dresses got off easy that night.). I guess the only exception to that rule is in places like the middle east - where women have to cover up. A good reason not to go to Egypt in July. Robyn

[bloviatrix]

I may look fabulous in a sleek pantsuit and kitten heels, but how much fun will I have if I have blisters at the end of the day? Surely there must be a happy medium between sloppy-but-comfortable and dashing-but-miserable, right?

Prada Sport and JP Tod make great looking shoes that are extremely comfortable for a heavy day of walking. Cole Haan has just introduced a line of shoes that look very comfortable yet stylish as well. Your feet will look and feel great in a museum or in a cafe, whatever your preference.

[Bux]

The look that seems least respectful to a restaurant is the dark jacket and slacks, and white shirt without a tie.

Least respectful? I don't get it. Are you describing a black leather jacket and blue jeans or a blazer and dark dress pants?

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. I meant guys who looked like all they did was come home from the office wearing a suit and take off their tie before going out to dinner. I think it would be alright to decide one wanted to wear relaxed or casual clothes for a great meal, but make them seem specially chosen. I'm afaid I'm tilting at windmills and that this is already an accepted style of dressing.

[Bux]

I'd much prefer to talk about what we're putting in our stomachs than what we're putting on our backs, but talk of shoes, sightseeing and dining at better restaurants makes me want to give a plug to a most comfortable pair of shoes that do not look at all like "walking shoes." These are a pair of cap toe shoes with soft rubber heels and soles made by Allen Edmonds. They are almost as comfortable as sneakers and about as dressy as any shoes I own or at least as dressy as any other brown shoes and I think they come in black as well. They required no breaking in when I bought them. They are my preferred city shoes at home and when traveling. They lace up and thus I don't like to wear them on airplanes and they are so dressy that they seem incongruous with khakis and a tee shirt.

[Carlsbad]

Interesting that there is so much response to this subject. Some random thoughts: I haven't see anyone in Southern California wear short shorts for at least 30 years. If this is an American mode of dress, it isn't done around here. I have a pair of black Ecco shoes that are more comfortable than any sneakers I've ever worn, and I can wear them anywhere and not look out of place. I do generally tuck my shirt in if it's made to be tucked in, although I see a lot of younger Americans who don't. The guy I saw entering the hotel in Monaco with his shirt out under his blazer was about 35 and overweight- not model material. I avoid checks and plaids at all cost. I always thought the British were big into them though. To me, it's not about trying not to look American- I dress pretty much the same way here when I go out as I do in Paris. I think it's more about just trying to be a good guest.

[Zingano]

I hope it isn't too off topic, but this little story may amuse you.

After a long summer afternoon and early evening walking along the Thames, my husband-to-be and I decided to eat in the local Chinese restaurant. It was quite a nice Chinese restaurant, but in a small Thames-side village (Cookham), nothing big city and swanky. We were both wearing walking shorts, T shirts and trainers. The owner of the restaurant refused us admission because of our clothing.

Somewhat peeved by this, we drove home at high speed, and changed. I put on my long black evening gown, high heels, pearls and all the rings etc. I could muster. My husband wore black tie. We zoomed back to the restaurant where we were admitted, to the stares of the other customers (and a wink from a waiter who I don't think approved of the original ban from the owner.)

The final note to this story is when the man from the next table, able to overcome his reticence no longer, leaned towards us and said "You don't need to dress like that for this place, you know."

"Oh, but we do," my husband replied.

Edited July 23, 2004 by Zingano (log)

[Felice]

Since we've covered attire at the best restaurants, let me pose this question to y'all: conventional wisdom (read: the 8,000 Paris books we've bought since getting our air tickets) says that wearing jeans immediately marks one as "boorish American tourist". Have any of you experienced this? Should I forego jeans for khakis, or were the writers just being overly sensitive?

I have to say that I always find it odd when people say not to wear jeans and sneakers in Paris. I live in Paris and people wear jeans all of the time and sneakers are extreamly popular. However, it's true that the French don't look like sloppy, goofy tourists when they wear them. The jeans are usually designer, and dark in color, rather than faded. I even iron my jeans here, something I wouldn't have done at home. You'll see women wearing jeans with heels as well.

As for sneakers, I have even seen very chic older women wearing them, but again they are much more stylish. I've seen older women wearing Converse high tops, but they always look brand new and still manage to look stylish.

I think the key is to just dress up a bit, even if you're going to wear jeans. A French woman looks her best even if she's just going to the market.