Back to the Future II: Top NYC restaurants of 1968

[Fat Guy]

An eGullet reader named Todd Kornfeld saw the thread Back to the Future: The NYC Restaurant Scene, 1994 and sent me the following information:

I have the 1968 edition of the New York Times Guide to Dining Out in New York.  You can quote me on this.  Craig Claiborne was the author.

The four stars were:

La Caravelle

Lafayette

La Grenouille

Le Veau d' Or

Peter Luger

Quo Vadis

Shun Lee Dynasty

The three star list is much longer and I'm too lazy to type all of it in now.  But it included things like Luchow's, P.J. Clarke's, Saito (which was Japanese) and Sweet's.  About half of the three stars were not French.

Thank you Todd.

[docsconz]

Lo and behold! Peter Luger as a four star restaurant! My, how times have changed.

Other than Peter Luger's are any of the other restaurants still open as they were then? I know Shun Lee still has restaurants, but do they have the same restaurant in the same location? I'm familiar with Shun Lee Palace, but not Shun Lee Dynasty.

[Fat Guy]

La Grenouille is still in play, same location since 1962.

[milla]

What was Lafayette? That wasn't the same location as where JGV was in the mid 80's was it?

That guide sounds fascinating...

[docsconz]

La Grenouille is still in play, same location since 1962.

I thought I heard that it was closed or closing. Maybe I'm confusing it with another of the Grand Dames.

[Squeat Mungry]

Anthony Bourdain visited Le Veau d'Or earlier this year. I believe it's still there.

[Fat Guy]

I wonder if the various claims that Le Veau d'Or has been unchanged since 1937 are really true. If so, it would be a fascinating case study in how the standards evolve and leave behind the restaurants that don't. From four stars in 1968 to not even being in Zagat and having virtually no foodie footprint in 2004 -- that's quite a slide. Or perhaps the claims of immutability are exaggerrated and Le Veau d'Or was a truly great restaurant 35 years ago but is now, despite its past, just an average-quality bistro.

Regardless, perhaps someone would like to track down this Robert Treboux fellow at Le Veau d'Or -- sounds like he's easy to find -- and have a conversation with him, for the purposes of preparing a report for eGullet. I bet he has some stories to tell. PM me if that project appeals to you.

[Suzanne F]

When I ate at Le Veau d'Or a couple of years ago, it certainly LOOKED as though it hadn't changed -- a fabulous example of Arte Moderne. I had a different reaction to the food than AB, but could try it again since he was so enthusiastic.

I'm curious about the ratings of Restaurant Associates' early establishments, if they were (still) around, such as La Fonda del Sol.

[Gary Soup]

Wake me up when we get back to 1961/1962.

Does anybody remember a restaurant called Le Vert Galant? I never ate there, but lived immediately upstairs from it in the summer of 1962. (I believe it was at 58 W. 48th.)

In 1961 I worked at the Top of the Sixes (666 Fifth Avenue). That's the last entry in my culinary resume. I was the flaming dessert wagon attendant, if you need to know. I was paid bubkes but got all the food I could eat.

[Todd36]

I'm curious about the ratings of Restaurant Associates' early establishments, if they were (still) around, such as La Fonda del Sol.

One star in 1968. Based on the text in the book, I think it was higher when it first opened.

[albie]

What were the reigning Italian eateries back then? Romeo Salta? Orsinis? The Italian Pavilion? Barbetta? It seems that although NYC may have more Italians than Rome, Manhattan was pretty much of a culinary desert for the genre before Lidia and Tony May?

Anyone recall a French place named Henri V?

It's hard to believe that Le Veau d'Or was ever rated that highly.. I used to love the bistros that lined W 46th's Restaurant Row in those days.. joints like A la Fourchette, Chez Cardinale (prop. Gino Mularoni), Jack's Epicure....again, does anyone remember these places?

[docsconz]

We used to go to an Italian restaurant called "Teddy's" in lower Manhatten. I remember having some escellent meals there. That was when veal "francese" or veal "piccata" were big.

Brooklyn was probably a better bet for excellent Italian food in the '60's and '70's than Manhatten in general. There were some awesome places such as "Two Toms" that had the best pork chops ever and Casa Storta and Brioni's and Monte's on Carroll St. with the best Linguine with Clam Sauce.

[Fat Guy]

Teddy's has one of the most wonderfully bizarre histories of any New York restaurant. For fear of getting the details wrong, I'll simply refer you all to an outside source:

Teddy Bartel ran the original Teddy's, a German eatery popular with workers, from the 1920s until 1945. Sal Cucinotta, who bought the place from Bartel, turned it into an Italian restaurant and swank celebrity den that attracted movie stars in the 1950s and 60s. The restaurant was also known as a mobster hangout for a time.

It gets better:

In 1984, artist Antoni Miralda and his partner, Montse Guillen, a chef, created El Internacional, a Spanish restaurant and tapas bar that lasted for two years. It was Miralda who built the 2,500-pound crown and added numerous other funky, artistic touches. Chesnutt opened El Teddy's Mexican restaurant in 1989.

For the full Teddy's eulogy, see:

http://www.tribecatrib.com/newsjune04/crown-jewel-down.html

[Todd36]

When I have time, I will try to type in more ratings from the 1968 book. I will say that Craig Claiborne seemed to have no problems handing out stars to all sorts of things. For example, I think Chock Full of Nuts got one star and I doubt that would be possible in the current NYT. He seemed to be very interested in food and willing to give stars based on the food, not which country the food came from and whether there were white tableclothes. For example, several bars came out well in his reviews. He also clearly liked both Chinese and Japanese food.

One of the most startling things about the book is that something like 95% of the restaurants listed no longer exist.

[Squeat Mungry]

When I have time, I will try to type in more ratings from the 1968 book.  I will say that Craig Claiborne seemed to have no problems handing out stars to all sorts of things.  For example, I think Chock Full of Nuts got one star and I doubt that would be possible in the current NYT.  He seemed to be very interested in food and willing to give stars based on the food, not which country the food came from and whether there were white tableclothes.  For example, several bars came out well in his reviews.  He also clearly liked both Chinese and Japanese food.

One of the most startling things about the book is that something like 95% of the restaurants listed no longer exist.

Todd, please do. I for one find this perspective fascinating. Your remarks on Craig Claiborne remind me that Dorothy Parker is probably no longer remembered as a theatre critic, and yet she is remembered and respected, even revered.

As far as the 95% closure, thirty-six years is a long time. I read just recently that only 30% (on average) of restaurants survive beyond 10 years.

Cheers, and welcome to eGullet,

Squeat

[Todd36]

But 36 years doesn't seem like that much time. And the number of real long time places has really dropped. Things like Gage & Tollner and Luchow's are prime examples. There are very, very few places in NYC now that pre-date WWII. For example, Katz's is probably the only Jewish type deli in Manhattan that pre-dates WWII. The ethnic restaurant theory isn't very helpful (meaning they drove other types out). I have a re-print of King's Guide to NYC (I think from 1892) and it is loaded with ethnic restaurants, including for example a number of Japanese places. At least in NYC, it seems nothing survives for very long. In my spare time, I've flipped through that 1968 NYT book and I think nothing has survived below Canal Street!!!!

[Fat Guy]

I wonder what percentage of businesses in general last 36 years, though. My conscious memory goes back more like 30 years but when I recall the Upper West Side just north of Lincoln Center (which itself wasn't completed until 1968 -- in 1962 my father said to my mother, "You know, they're building this thing called Lincoln Center and we can afford an apartment near there; maybe if we get one now it will be a nice neighborhood in a few years," and that's the only smart economic decision he ever made -- my mother still lives in that same rent-controlled apartment) I can hardly remember any businesses that are still there today. A walk up Columbus Avenue from Columbus Circle to 72nd Street, for example, takes you past about a hundred commercial establishments only a handful of which were around in the early 1970s. Small businesses that survive the retirement or death of the original owner are the exceptions, and if you figure most people don't start their own businesses until they've acquired some experience and capital and are into their thirties then a 30-40-year lifespan for a typical successful small business makes sense. A franchise or a generic establishment can of course just be transferred and operated by another person, but a business with the owner's personal stamp on it is a lot less durable.

My sense of Chinese food is that two things have changed. For one thing, the grand, palatial, luxurious Chinese fine-dining establishment no longer really exists in New York. There are a few such places remaining, and every once in awhile somebody tries to open one, but they feel tired. Chinese food, and indeed all non-Japanese Asian food, has migrated firmly into the middle and lower tiers of the market. For another thing, the relative quality of Chinese restaurants has changed. When you consider that in the 1960s and 1970s places like Le Veau d' Or were thought to be the best Western restaurants in New York, and at the same time you had Chinese places like Shun Lee Dynasty with its Russel Wright-designed china and serving accessories (take that, Grant Achatz!), it's no wonder there were four-star Chinese restaurants. Today, however, what Chinese restaurant compares in luxuriousness and culinary ambition to Per Se?

More generally, it seems that in the 1960s there weren't many restaurants at all that conform to current notions of a four-star restaurant, where the cuisine and all the trappings need to be first-rate. Peter Luger, presumably very similar then to now albeit with the waiters being several decades younger, was probably perceived in a totally different light than it is by today's educated dining public. In addition, restaurants that truly served outstanding food based on the best and freshest products were in that era exceptional -- in 1968, what percentage of the fish and vegetables served at then-four-star La Caravelle and La Grenouille were not frozen, who knew the name of any chef, and who dined out for the food?

Restaurant reviewing itself, moreover, was a completely new discipline. Nobody had really done it, in the modern sense, before Craig Claiborne. He created the system without much in the way of references or precedent, so it reflected much more of his personality than an institutional and precedent-based system. It seems to me that Bryan Miller was most mindful of institutional considerations -- both at the New York Times and in the restaurant context in general -- and that the critics since Miller have been less cognizant of that sense of historical continuity.

[Todd36]

There is at least one fairly new high end Chinese restaurant in town: Mr. K's. I agree that the number of high end non-Japanese Asian restaurants in town is limited. I think that in today's market, there are limits as to what people will pay for cooking from a certain country, and I think French and Japanese are the two types of cooking that people are generally willing to pay the most for. Therefore, it is not a surprise that most of the NYT three and four star restaurants are either French or Japanese: they can charge the most and therefore have the most money to work with. I know, based on conversations with the owner of a NYT three star Japanese place, that his current menu pushes the limit on what people are willing to pay and that he cannot afford to raise prices more to create 4 star service. He thinks his food is four star, he knows his dining room is not. But this raises the question of how important is the service and the room, once you cross a certain point, anyway? Does it really matter whether the China is from Mikasa or Limoges? To bring back the famous joke, does it matter if they give you an expensive pen to sign your check with? Atmosphere to that extent matters if you are paying for entertainment. Or to change the subject slightly, would you turn down Yquem if it were bottled in a mason jar? I myself think that once the dining room is clean and pleasant, and the service competent, little is gained by futher style.

I still think there is something wrong with the lifespan of Manhattan's restaurants. For example, if you walk on Broadway between 72nd and 86th, there are at least 3 and maybe 4 food stores that I think pre-date WWII and not one restaurant: Fairway, Zabar's, Citerlla and Murry's Sturgeon.

[oakapple]

I can only guess at the reasons, but I suspect that Chinese has become associated with casual dining, given the number of extremely low-end take-out places all over town. Because Chinese food at the low-end is so commonplace, perhaps not enough diners are willing to regard it as a high-end cuisine. In contrast, the fast-food equivalent of French cuisine simply doesn't exist.

Therefore, it is not a surprise that most of the NYT three and four star restaurants are either French or Japanese.

I haven't added it up, but I don't think that most of the three-stars are either French or Japanese. There's pretty good representation of other cuisines at that level. At the four-star level, it's all French.

I still think there is something wrong with the lifespan of Manhattan's restaurants. For example, if you walk on Broadway between 72nd and 86th, there are at least 3 and maybe 4 food stores that I think pre-date WWII and not one restaurant: Fairway, Zabar's, Citerlla and Murry's Sturgeon.

Most of the starred restaurants owe their sense of being to a particular individual. Once that individual (usually an owner or chef) dies or retires, there's a good chance that the restaurant will either close, or lose the attributes that made it appealing. In contrast, I don't think we particularly care who's behind the counter at Fairway or Citarella.

[rich]

Having eaten at Luger's for the first time in the mid-60's, it's nice to see that Claiborne agreed with me about their food then. It's not nearly as good now - probably still in the top ten steak places in NYC, but certainly not even close to being #1.

Edited August 24, 2004 by rich (log)

[Todd36]

For what's its worth, the original family behind Fairway is still a part owner.

Yes, at least these days 3 and 4 star restaurants seem to have famous chefs. Again, from that 1968 book....

Luchow's was three stars and was over 80 years old at the time

P.J. Clarke's was three stars and vintage 1900

Sweet's was three stars and opened in 1845

Are any current NTY three stars more than 25 years old?

More three star places in 1968 (country as listed in book)

Baroque (French)

Bo Bo (Chinese)

Cafe Chauveron (French I think)

Casa Brasil (obvious)

Charley O's bar and grill (Irish-American)

Chist Cella (seafood, not sure of country)

The Coach House (American)

The Colony ( American)

Copenhagen (Danish)

Dinty Moore's (American)

El Faro (Spanish)

El Parador Cafe (Mexican!!!!)

Fountain Cafe (American)

The Four Seasons (American, making you wonder.....)

The French Shack (French)

[rich]

Chist Cella (seafood, not sure of country)

I think this was Crist Cella and was a steakhouse. It was a very attractive room with slightly above average steak.

At least that's my recollection.

[Todd36]

Chist Cella (seafood, not sure of country)

I think this was Crist Cella and was a steakhouse. It was a very attractive room with slightly above average steak.

At least that's my recollection.

My typo. It's "Christ Cella" and Claiborne lists it as "seafood", although he does mention steak in the narrative text, so it is probably the place you are thinking of.

Back to an earlier chunk of thread. Some of the more interesting food markets/shops in town (Fairway, Zabar's, Barney Greenglass, Orwasher's, DiPaolo's, Russ & Daughters for example) are still (at least partially in Fairway case) in founding family hands and are quite old. How many restraurants in Manhattan are more than 50 years old and still have original family involvement?

(yes, I can't spell)

[alacarte]

Welcome, Todd, and thanks for the interesting info.

I'd love to see a listing of all the restaurants that pre-date WWII and then visit all of them. I'd also love to go back and visit them "back in the day," but alas, that's not an option.

[Fat Guy]

We've asked to have that feature added to version 2.0 of the software.