Dining Talk 2004

[rdailey]

I highly recommend Piperade, which has some highly acclaimed Basque food. Good location for walking.

Dim sum at Yank Sing is a delicious SF experience as well.

Spend some time in the little Italy of SF, North Beach. Try a cappuccino at Caffe Trieste or maybe pick up some antipasta at Molinari deli and enjoy a picnic in Washington Square.

[lamington]

Wow, it's times like these that eGullet shines! Fantastic suggestions -- thank you so much. I think, on reflection, we will have to avoid places that are toooo Italian/French/Spanish, cos we'll have been a few places in Europe beforehand... USAmerican styles of food and ingredients, perhaps with a touch of the traditional, are probably more interesting and I can see potential interest in a number of places that you have all referred to. Mind you, some of the SF French and Italian menus had my mouth watering too, but I have to discipline myself!

Your various touristy tips have been great too:)

Duncan

[lamington]

I've cruised the menus of as many as I can of the recommendations above... I must say that Boulevard, SlowFood, and the Ferry Building look particularly promising... though I wonder how a burger can cost $14+ at Boulevard -- anyone had one? and how dressy is the place?... I mean, we won't be power dressing for an 8-hour tourist fly-by.

The pork at L'Osteria del Forno sounds fabulous, and I'm tempted by so many other things too. It was amusing looking at Ma Tante Sumi -- the menu could be modern Sydney! So, sounds good, but too Pacific Rim for us;)

Where's the best place for foodbooks?

:)

[ludja]

Where's the best place for foodbooks?

There is a large Borders bookstore on the northwest corner of Union Square (corner of Post and Powell). It's a chain, but has a large selection of cookbooks and is close to the Powell Station.

Another fun tip if you are in Union Square: on the west side of the square is the venerable St. Francis Hotel (host, I believe to Queen Elizabeth at some time previous). Duck into the lobby, walk straight through the older darker part of the lobby until you get to a lighter open lounge area, bear right through the lounge until you get to a bank of elevators. Step inside and push button to go the top. The elevators are on the outside of the builiding and you get a tremendous view of the eastern end of the city, bay, Coit Tower, Bay Bridge, Transamerica Pyramid... Repeat as necessary or as your stomach allows... On the way out, check out the lobby...

Not to add to your choices too much--but two other "fancy" places downtown that emphasize American/Californian cuisine are:

One Market (Near Boulevard; at the end of Market St., near the Ferry Building; they have a website with sample menus)

and

Rubicon (in the Financial district, basically between between the Pyramid, Market St and the Bay, lovely historical neighborhood to stroll through and not far from the Ferry Building, rubicon)

Edited March 17, 2004 by ludja (log)

[Carlsbad]

Just saw this- hope I'm not too late. There are already a lot of great recommendations here. How much can you eat in 9 hours?

My first recommendation would be to stay on BART from SFO and head directly to Berkeley for lunch at Chez Panisse upstairs. Call ahead. You won't get there until about 1:30, but I think they stay open until 3:00 pm for lunch. While it has elements of France and Italy, it is uniquely Californian. You could also go for early dinner and head straight for the airport from there.

I would second L'Osteria del Forno. I've had lunch there 3 times and each one was like a trip to Italy. It's very small and it's wise to get there early or late. You would have to take a cab from the nearest BART station, however. We had dinner at Piperade a few months ago and we loved it. Maye's Oyster Bar is a SF institution and would be great for a seafood lunch.

I think Boulevard has a distinctive San Francisco feel, and the food and ambiance are excellent. It's close to the BART station for a fast get-away. The Ferry Building is very close. If you change your mind and want a romantic spot with terrific, high-end Italian food and a wine list to die for, try Acquerello.

Edited March 24, 2004 by Carlsbad (log)

[pim]

I'm not a big fan of Boulevard, have never been one. I've had about two meals there over the years, and niether time was particularly impressive or delicious.

Definitely go to the Ferry Plaza, that's my usual hang-out Saturday mornings. If nothing there striked your fancy, you could just walk across the street to the Embarcadero building and have one of SF's best Dim Sum meals at Harbour Village. It's far better than Yang Sing and on par with (but much easier to get to than) Koi Palace.

[jschyun]

If you decide to go to Little Italy, I kind of like the sacrapantina at Stella's Bakery, though it's little more than some white cake with cream filling, with cake crumbs on top. I think it's flavored with almond/Amaretto/some liquor that I forget, memory is hazy, though I just had it several weeks ago. Nice with coffee.

However, across the street is an American institution that you can't miss if you've never been. Ben & Jerry's ice cream parlor. My favorite flavors are Cherry Garcia and Mint Chocolate Cookie, but they have all manner of flavors for most tastes. Speaking of tastes, you can get a bunch of free tastes before deciding on your flavor of choice.

[Han]

SF Area, how come no one mentioned about Mexican food ? I am no expert in the cuisine but found it to be a unique food in this part of the world. There are many Mexicans and places abound throughout Bay Area. Love a great burrito with special spicy pork and many other dishes.

Also large population of Vietnamese. Not sure how it is in Aussie. With 8 hours, you can easily get both cuisines.

For some view of the famous Bay Bridge, Alcatraz and maybe a bit of Golden Gate Bridge and some food, probably should go to Pier 39 (Fisherman Wharf). Then go to Ghirardelli, sip some drinks at Kuleto while enjoying the view. Walk a little bit along the wharf. Share an In and Out burger with everything in it. Sample some fre chocolates at the Ghirardelli. Then have a late lunch at Chinatown.

[mikeczyz]

So I'm moving to San Francisco in a few days. I've got THursday night and all of friday to eat. I've got lunch and dinner reservations at Zuni Cafe for my friday meals, but need advice on where to eat for my Thursday meal. I'd like to do something BIG. The Fifth FLoor intrigues me. Anybody been lately? How's the wines by the glass list. I'm specifically looking for information about the degustation menu if any of you have had it. Also, how's Charles Nob Hill? I couldn't help but notice that the chef was awarded a Food and Wine Best new chef award. I've already been to La Folie and Gary Danko so I might want to try someplace new.

Thanks

Mike

[rdailey]

Welcome to the neighborhood, Mike.

I was at Fifth Floor in January and had a fantastic dinner. Very elegant, not too stuffy, quiet with professional service. The food was quite rich, but delicious. At times the food was a little over complicated (a critique I hear often about Fifth Floor). I'm reminded of a 2-way foie gras dish that had an incredible sauteed version with bee pollen alongside a cold preparation with Citron gelee which was far too tart. That said, the Niman Ranch pork belly poached with truffles, crispy skin and a truffle jus was magical. The scallops served with a boullibaise sauce, tapioca, and crispy chorizo was also quite good. My companion's Lobster "Cappuccino", which consisted of a lobster broth emulsified with chestnuts poured over prawns and sauteed lobster, was also highly enjoyed.

Unfortunately I do not recall the wine selection, but I do remember we had some delicious riesling and syrah selections by the glass.

My companion and I really enjoyed ourselves. The service was so accomodating! I definately want to return. I also remember that it was middle of the week and it was about half full at about 8pm. The bar, which you can have dinner at, would be a great place for solo dining. As for the chef's tasting menu, it was really just a 5-course pre-set selection from the ala carte menu that night. They offered wine pairings with each course as well.

[Gary Soup]

At times the food was a little over complicated (a critique I hear often about Fifth Floor).

Maybe the wine list is a little over-complicated, too, as they claim to have 1,400 wines (twenty by the glass).

Their web site says that you can email them for a wine list.

[mikeczyz]

Welcome to the neighborhood, Mike.

I was at Fifth Floor in January and had a fantastic dinner. Very elegant, not too stuffy, quiet with professional service. The food was quite rich, but delicious. At times the food was a little over complicated (a critique I hear often about Fifth Floor). I'm reminded of a 2-way foie gras dish that had an incredible sauteed version with bee pollen alongside a cold preparation with Citron gelee which was far too tart. That said, the Niman Ranch pork belly poached with truffles, crispy skin and a truffle jus was magical. The scallops served with a boullibaise sauce, tapioca, and crispy chorizo was also quite good. My companion's Lobster "Cappuccino", which consisted of a lobster broth emulsified with chestnuts poured over prawns and sauteed lobster, was also highly enjoyed.

Unfortunately I do not recall the wine selection, but I do remember we had some delicious riesling and syrah selections by the glass.

My companion and I really enjoyed ourselves. The service was so accomodating! I definately want to return. I also remember that it was middle of the week and it was about half full at about 8pm. The bar, which you can have dinner at, would be a great place for solo dining. As for the chef's tasting menu, it was really just a 5-course pre-set selection from the ala carte menu that night. They offered wine pairings with each course as well.

What troubles me the most about your post is that I've read reports from a year ago in which featured the same foie with bee pollen dish and the same pork belly and truffle dish that you describe. isn't chef gras trying to come up with anything new? i have reservations there tho, i'll taste these seemingly signature items of his and see if I like them for myself.

mike

[rdailey]

I know that the pork belly is one of his "signature" dishes. Not sure about the foie. I've only eaten there once and only knew about the pork belly's popularity beforehand.

I must caution you, if you order the foie and pork belly in the same meal, that you order lightly for the others. Both dishes are extremely rich and marvelously fatty.

Enjoy!

[shocker]

do not go to Charles Nob Hill.

i had one of the worst high-end meals ever there. the food veered all over the avoidable mistake spectrum, from over salted to undersalted, to drowning a radicchio salad in a torrent of vinegar with not nearly enough oil to balance things out.

and it ain't cheap. i wasn't payin', and i still felt ripped off. and shocked that the place continually garners such accolades.

[fiftydollars]

do not go to Charles Nob Hill.

i had one of the worst high-end meals ever there. the food veered all over the avoidable mistake spectrum, from over salted to undersalted, to drowning a radicchio salad in a torrent of vinegar with not nearly enough oil to balance things out.

and it ain't cheap. i wasn't payin', and i still felt ripped off. and shocked that the place continually garners such accolades.

CNH has not been worth going to since Ron Siegel left.

[pim]

do not go to Charles Nob Hill.

i had one of the worst high-end meals ever there. the food veered all over the avoidable mistake spectrum, from over salted to undersalted, to drowning a radicchio salad in a torrent of vinegar with not nearly enough oil to balance things out.

and it ain't cheap. i wasn't payin', and i still felt ripped off. and shocked that the place continually garners such accolades.

Interesting.

This place has just come back on my radar recently. Hasn't the chef just received a Best New Chef or something award from Food and Wine?

I am surprised your meal was so bad. Can you tell me where else in the city that you like?

I'm not picking a fight or anything, just curious. It's difficult to take a recommendation from someone unless one knows how to calibrate one's palate to that of the person giving the recommendation. Seeing that you're new around here, I'd like to hear more about where else you've eaten and like.

Has anyone else try Charles NH recently? What do you think? Worth a try?

[mikeczyz]

ate at fifth floor last night. very, very good. did the chef's tasting menu, and tossed in the foie appetizer as well. not quite as progressive as i would've hoped but it all tasted good. running theme of the night would definitely be southeast asia. i can't tell you how many times i encountered cardamom, ginger or coconut in the meal. i usually find such repetition of flavors to be offputting, but for whatever reason, it didn't bother me much last night. some other small nitpicky things i didn't like, such as a shooter of verbena and ginger served with dessert that wasn't sweet enough and was wiped out when one took a bite, and then had a sip. gelees that hadn't quite 'set.' there were some other exceedingly, minor irritants throughout the meal. beautiful room, service was quite competent and friendly. chef gras was not in the kitchen last night. TERRIFIC coffee service. single serving french press. marvelous. it cost me five bucks but i didn't feel stilted at all. all in all, an excellent experience. one other thing to rant about, the chef's sashimi plate included in the chef's tasting. i just don't understand this. for a guy who appears to be on the creative side, why serve a simple, unadorned plate of raw fish? it's beyond my comprehension.

[rdailey]

Well Mike, sounds like you enjoyed it all in all. I forgot to mention the coffee service. Although we had cappuccino's, the coffee and espresso was excellent and very well done. I'll never understand why more high end restaurants don't put more attention on the coffee/espresso after such a focused and detailed dinner. (ie French Laundry will offer choices of breads, butters, salts, etc, but no choice in coffee???)

As for the sashimi, I would guess that the reason he served it in the chef's tasting would be because the fish was extremely high quality and felt that it did not need to be covered up by a sauce or other adornment. Was the sashimi at least cut properly? Did it taste good? It certainly seems to coincide with the Asian themes that Chef Gras uses, but I understand your point. It is odd that he would do that considering the abundance of creativity on his menus.

[shocker]

This place has just come back on my radar recently.  Hasn't the chef just received a Best New Chef or something award from Food and Wine?

bear with me if my quoting doesn't work out right.

yes, she did receive the best new chef award. which makes it all the more confounding. her featured recipe in the magazine involved ricotta gnocchi, which were on the vegetarian tasting menu the night i dined there. they were gummy and browned within an inch of their life. translation- no high quality bellwether farms ricotta deliciousness left.

gaffs are forgivable in the restaurant world. consistency is hard to maneuver, making it all the more precious when it occurs. but at this level you'd expect nothing less.

where have i dined? not everywhere, but plenty of places. in town at this level, masa's was fine and dandy. other local favorites in a semi-related genre: quince, incanto, and that benchmark of consistency, delfina. and to reference a favorite of yours, pim, i love me some l'arpege.

i'm absurdly forgiving and barely vitriolic. but the sloppiness of charles nob hill boggled the mind. plus one of my fellow diners that night had been before and much the same had occurred. intimations of 'not an isolated incident,' i'd say.

does that provide the calibration you seek?

Edited July 3, 2004 by shocker (log)

[fiftydollars]

... masa's was fine and dandy...

Ron Siegel now cooks at Masa's.

[tsquare]

do not go to Charles Nob Hill.

Has anyone else try Charles NH recently? What do you think? Worth a try?

Some friends were there a couple of weeks ago, with her parents (we are talking middle age and elder.) There was some concern that everyone would feel like eating after their dinner (too little food?), and that they would think they paid too much. Well, the report was that they all thought it was fabulous. Those not requesting a tasting menu were given some extra courses so as to not feel left out, so they tasted a lot of courses. They did not leave hungry and thought they easily got their money's worth and then some. I didn't get the specifics on what they ate, but they were impressed.

In SF, I know they have enjoyed meals at Delfina and Boulevard, and a host of other higher end places.

[mikeczyz]

anyone here own a copy of patricia unterman's san francisco food lover's guide? i've literally spent the whole walking around checking out food related places. I had a fantastic Frog hollow nectarine. visited a cheese shop. scoped out a few italian focaccia places in the north beach area. enjoyed a coffee and a croissant just outside of chinatown. went to the fog city news for chocolate. jewish deli on polk. this book is really great.

[shocker]

Ron Siegel now cooks at Masa's.

Edited July 3, 2004 by shocker (log)

[pim]

i'm absurdly forgiving and barely vitriolic. but the sloppiness of charles nob hill boggled the mind. plus one of my fellow diners that night had been before and much the same had occurred. intimations of 'not an isolated incident,' i'd say.

does that provide the calibration you seek?

Yes, well, that's a start at least. Thank you.

I had a meal there two nights ago, actually. I was so curious I just had to try. I must say I am a big fan, or trying to be a big fan, of female chefs cooking at that level--you know, sisterhood and all that. (I've given the wildly inconsistent Helène Darroze so many chances I finally gave up though.)

Anyhow, I really should have listened to you.

While my meal wasn't as bad, there was nothing particularly wrong with anything, just not particularly exciting or great. And for almost 200$ per head (we brought one bottle and bought one at the restaurant), I wanted wow.

There was a few things that was good. The Pepper Crusted Sonoma Duck Breast served with Duck Leg Confit and Potato Hash was quite nice, though the duck slices were a tad on the cold side by the time they arrived in front of me.

The quality of ingredients was good, but again not great. Compared to other meals at that level that I've had lately, the ingredient quality was really not all that great. For example, the Bellwether farm lamb was nothing compared to Elysian farm lamb that the French Laundry and Trio use. The scallop was ok, but not particularly succulent. Well, one could argue that this is not a particularly good season for scallops, so it wasn't the fault of the restaurant really. But then again, it begs the question why they would put something that's not at the height of the season on the menu in the first place.

The service was inconsistent, our particular waitress was nice and friendly, but the rest of the front of the house was needlessly stuffy, and even mildly snobbish. I arrived with a coat on, no one offered to take it away, even after about 5 minutes at the bar. I ended up having to specifically asked someone to put this crumpled pile of coat on the back on my bar stool away. When it was time to leave, I had to remind someone to bring it back to me. During the service, a waitress who brought the last of the amuse said to us, "This will be the last of our Canapés today." Canapes??

When I asked for a menu of what we had, we were told that they couldn't give us one, but if we gave them our email address, they would send us a copy, though they warned it could take up to a week!! That was plenty odd.

This was so weird that Melkor, who I've never known to use his eGullet association to his advantage, decided for once that he would leave his egullet corporate email account, just to see what happened. It seemed to help, as our menu was emailed to us in this morning.

Oh well. Too bad. I really wanted to like it. Perhaps, I'll give them another try sometimes soon, just to see if last night was something of an off night.

[melkor]

Anyhow, I really should have listened to you.

While my meal wasn't as bad, there was nothing particularly wrong with anything, just not particularly exciting or great. And for almost 200$ per head (we brought one bottle and bought one at the restaurant), I wanted wow.

The meal was more or less what I expected, it's much more of a neighborhood restaurant than a culinary destination - the neighborhood just happens to be nob hill so it costs $100+/plate to eat there. There are far worse places to eat in SF for the same or more money, I would sooner return to CNH than Boulevard or Fleur de Lys.

Overall, I would say the meal I had at CNH was worth the price, the service was acceptable, and the space while very dimly lit is pleasant (except for the mirrors on the wall which are in need of cleaning). On the bright side, the wine list is reasonably priced, with a surprisingly good selection of 1/2 bottles. I found several of the dishes to be quite good and was only disappointed by the mint lime granite.