Restaurant Hidden Extras

deltadoc · October 29, 2004

Just yesterday the four of us were eating at KFAN in Roseville, MN, and Trent and I ordered the daily special pizza. Now the last time we ate there, about 2 weeks ago, the waitress said the Daily Special Pizza was $8.50. We both heard her say the same thing. But when the bill came it was $9.50. We asked her what the real price was and then she said $9.50. So we let it go.

But when we heard the waiter say yesterday it was $8.50, we asked are you sure, and he actually had to go check and came back and repeated it again, $8.50.

So when the bill came the first thing I did was look, and by golly geewillickers, it said $9.50.

This time we spoke up and the Maitre'd came over and took off the extra $2.

Bet this happens all the time with keyed in regular prices and the cashier doesn't bother looking up at the blackboard with the special prices on it.

Or do you think they might do it on purpose cause nobody questions the bill??

doc

Pan · October 29, 2004

The $25 edamame would be a shocker, though. $25 for beans?
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Yeah, nuts, ain't it?

But seriously, while it's very possible to get really cheap restaurant food in New York, things generally are more expensive here than in most of the rest of the country. They have to pay higher rents, so we have to pay higher prices for food and so forth. And I'm OK with that as long as I know what I'm paying.

The worst "hidden extra" I ever experienced was being charged an exhorbitant price for 33 cl of mineral water at a Hungarian restaurant on Vigado Ter. I hadn't checked the price for water but it never cost much anywhere else, and their food menu prices seemed reasonable. They showed me the price from the menu when I objected, and they didn't speak English and I didn't speak enough Hungarian to argue effectively, plus I did see the entry on the menu, so I paid up. And no, it wasn't some deluxe water, it was their only water and no better than any other mineral water I got during my stay, which I think was 2 weeks long (in 1994). The thing about tourist-ripoff places is that when they serve good food like this one did, I would have returned if they had treated me honestly. The same thing is true of the Romanian restaurant near the Eiffel Tower which served me a good meal and then tried to charge me for wine I had never drunk nor ordered and were unapologetic about the "error." Fortunately, my French is a hell of a lot better than my Hungarian. :raz:

MsMelkor · October 29, 2004

One of my clients took a large group of her customers out for dinner, and when the check came she reviewed it to find that she was charged $3100 for a bottle of wine that should have cost her $100, bringing the total to $5700 instead of $2700. Oops.

TheFoodTutor · October 29, 2004

Or do you think they might do it on purpose cause nobody questions the bill??
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I really don't see anything devious in that particular example. Quoted prices and menu listings differ from what's in the computer frequently because the price went up, but one thing was updated without updating the other. We raised the price of the filet mignon on our menu from $25 to $26, and although it was listed correctly on our printed menu, the price stayed at the old, lower amount in the computer until I brought it up to a certain manager 3 times. In this case, the waitstaff is under the impression that this item is $8.50, probably because it was sold for that price at one point, but the price has changed. When the server went to check the price, he either pretended to check and didn't do it, or he checked by looking at a list of prices that hadn't been updated correctly.

From the tone of some of the responses on this thread, it sounds as if there's a general perception that servers and restaurant owners spend lots of time trying to think up ways of scamming people. I feel it's important to note that patrons try to scam restaurants at least as often, and probably more frequently than the other way around.

A couple of weeks ago, I waited on a couple of ladies, one of whom drank lemonade with her meal. She asked for a second glass of lemonade, and because the two ladies were deep in conversation, I didn't interrupt them to point out that refills aren't free. When they got the bill, they were unhappy over the charge, and I fetched a manager for them. When the manager spoke to the women, she recognized them from another one of our restaurants, where they had made exactly the same complaint. Their ploy was to notify us that all of our other locations gave free refills on lemonade (which they don't) and that she couldn't have possibly known that we didn't give free refills.

After the manager confirmed that she would not remove the charge for the lemonade, having recognized the ladies, they waited for her to leave the table. At this time, the lady paying the bill wrote what would have been an 18% tip on the line - more than she probably would have tipped me if everything had gone perfectly - and then scratched through the tip with big black marks from my pen. So even though there was no possible way for me to have given her a free refill - I don't get free lemonade, either - she decided to express her anger by giving me a zero tip.

Now, because I pay tipshare and taxes on tips I receive, or theoretically receive, that means that I paid money out of my pocket for waiting on these ladies. I paid for the privilege of running to get them more ketchup, and then running again to get the honey mustard, which of course they didn't mention when they sent me to fetch the first thing, and then running to get more things that they didn't mention the first 2 times they sent me running. . .

But that's OK, because one day these ladies will be rotting in the eternal flames of Hell, and I'm pretty sure they don't have free refills on lemonade there, either.

MGLloyd · October 29, 2004

TheFoodTutor · October 30, 2004

But that's OK, because one day these ladies will be rotting in the eternal flames of Hell, and I'm pretty sure they don't have free refills on lemonade there, either.
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The sheer poetry of this statement brought tears to my eyes!
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Thank you so much. Bitterness does seem to inspire a lot of fairly good writing. I write a blog about the things I go through every day as a waitress in ghetto-fabulous Buckhead, Atlanta, Georgia.

I apologize, beforehand, for pimping my writing on eGullet., and I hope the Perlows and Fat Guy don't kick me off this website for doing so.

Pan · October 30, 2004

From the tone of some of the responses on this thread, it sounds as if there's a general perception that servers and restaurant owners spend lots of time trying to think up ways of scamming people.
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I definitely think that's the exception - a very unusual exception, in my experience. Some crooks exist in any situation. Sorry you had to deal with those two customers from Hell.

daniellewiley · October 30, 2004

We were at a very high-end restaurant earlier this week. I was reviewing it. Entrees were all over $30, and included a salad. The server recommended the roasted garlic bleu cheese dressing. I said that sounded great. She then asked if I wanted crumpled Maytag bleu on top. I said, "sure."

I later noticed that the menu charged extra for BOTH of these items. So, it wasn't hidden, but certainly not expected. I ended up paying an extra $2.50 for my salad toppings. This is on a bill that for two people came to over $200. I don't think the waitress was scamming me. I'm upset with the owner for being so tacky. The restaurant had a wine list with an entire page of Chateau Lafitte Rothschild. And, they are charging extra for bleu cheese????

TheFoodTutor · October 30, 2004

I later noticed that the menu charged extra for BOTH of these items. So, it wasn't hidden, but certainly not expected. I ended up paying an extra $2.50 for my salad toppings.
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That's just the sort of information that's valuable to put into a review, isn't it?

daniellewiley · October 31, 2004

I later noticed that the menu charged extra for BOTH of these items. So, it wasn't hidden, but certainly not expected. I ended up paying an extra $2.50 for my salad toppings.
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That's just the sort of information that's valuable to put into a review, isn't it?
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Heck yeah!!

deltadoc · October 31, 2004

Another thing a lot of restaurants do concerns coupons. You have a coupon that says, "Buy 1 meal, get another meal of equal or lesser value free!".

Ok, so you go there and order two exactly the same meals. The bill comes and they start off by listing the price of both meals, total it up, apply sales tax, THEN they deduct the price of the free meal. So in MN you end up paying 13% sales tax on your meal instead of 6.5%. Tax is, be definition, supposed to be applied to the amount that is actually paid for the meal, not on the "free part"!

This is such a widespread illegal practice that I do have some trouble believing that it isn't deliberate.

doc

nwyles · October 31, 2004

I do not know what the law is in your area but here ( in B.C. ) , the government always wants what is coming to Him.

The Man does not care that the restaurant gave the item away , He still wants His Tax. He does not care that I bought you a glass of champagne on your birthday , He still wants his money.

Seriously, do you honestly think that the restauranteur gets to keep the tax.

You must know how invasive the government is. Imagine when you are in the position of collecting taxes for Him.

Unless it is a small Mom and Pop operation with hand written bills , the Man is getting his piece of the pie and just a little bit more. :biggrin:

Edited October 31, 2004 by nwyles (log)

TheFoodTutor · October 31, 2004

The Man does not care that the restaurant gave the item away , He still wants His Tax. He does not care that I bought you a glass of champagne on your birthday , He still wants his money.

Well said. The only way for a restaurant to not charge tax on items that are comped is to not ring the item in the first place and put the cost of that item in the food or liquor columns of their monthly budget. Comps and voids do take a slightly different tack, but I can explain that.

If a restaurant serves you a filet that you ordered medium-rare, but it arrives well-done, and there is not enough time for a new dish to be prepared to replace the one that was wrong, the restaurant takes a loss not only on the food cost of that item, but they also remove the tax from your bill, because that's what's fair. You were unable to eat the food, so there's no way you should have to pay for the tax on that sale. The business owner eats the whole cost, but hopefully you will remember if your server did the best he or she could in serving the dish to you, and remember that when you tip.

But if the business sells you a steak on a different night, and you like it and you are happy with the way everything is prepared, but part of the tender you offer as payment is a coupon for a free steak, why should the owner pay the sales tax on that steak for you? You ate the steak, enjoyed it, and you got it for free, so why would you put the business owner in the position of paying the tax on it as well? Hopefully, you got exactly what you ordered, plus you got a discounted meal, and the owners, the cooks, and the servers all did exactly the same amount of work as they would have if you were any other customer, except for the fact that they took off the charge for that entree.

The general rule is that you should always pay any fees related to the original price of purchase, regardless of what the discounted amount you should have to pay turns out to be. That includes tax and tip.

WHT · October 31, 2004

Another thing a lot of restaurants do concerns coupons. You have a coupon that says, "Buy 1 meal, get another meal of equal or lesser value free!".
Ok, so you go there and order two exactly the same meals. The bill comes and they start off by listing the price of both meals, total it up, apply sales tax, THEN they deduct the price of the free meal. So in MN you end up paying 13% sales tax on your meal instead of 6.5%. Tax is, be definition, supposed to be applied to the amount that is actually paid for the meal, not on the "free part"!
This is such a widespread illegal practice that I do have some trouble believing that it isn't deliberate.
doc
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I don't know about NM but in a lot of states the "free" meal is in fact taxable.

Edited October 31, 2004 by WHT (log)

deltadoc · October 31, 2004

I am totally amazed. The Minnesota Dept. of Taxation posted a newsletter stating that tax can only be applied to the cost of the meal the consumer is paying for when the coupon is NOT reimbursed by a third party.

If the coupon is the restaurant's coupon, and they don't get money back from someone else, then the tax can only be applied to the actual $ the consumer paid.

If on the other hand the coupon is like a store coupon where the manufacturer gives the store back money for the coupon, then the value of the coupon must enter into the taxable column.

Sorry, didn't know that other places did it differently. Its a wide spread practice in Minnesota that is definitely illegal according to the Man himself.

doc

Carrot Top · October 31, 2004

Here's a new variation on the meal giveaway situation. Slightly off-topic, but the topic has wandered in this direction, so there go I too... :blink:

There is a popular independent pizza place in town here...which the children enjoy. Big place, lots of college students, quite active.

Great service, by the way. College-age waitresses that look like they major in phys ed wrangle through the crowds with huge trays of pizza and beer...and they deserve every penny of their tips...they are fast and happy and helpful.

We had our pizza etc...and the owner came over to the table and held up a coin. "Choose heads or tails!" he hollered out..."You win, you get your pizza free."

Well...lots of fun of course. Very theatrical, exciting. And we won!

The waitress brought the bill and there I was, ready to write in the tip...on a much lower amount than the original bill. It was noisy, the kids were bouncy...unthinkingly I wrote in 20%...but then a bell went off in my mind, for it seemed...small.

I crossed it out and guessed at what the original bill would be and tipped on that.

On the way out, I ran into the waitress and asked her, if her tips were being affected by the owner's new 'game' that he'd invented as a way to increase business (a competitor had opened next door, and he wanted to keep customers here...and not going there...). She said "Yes...most people don't even think of what the original bill was."

She was not happy. I don't blame her.

Food Tutor...you may add the owner of this place to the List. And I do have to say...it was confusing reading nwyles post earlier...for I really thought it was YOU writing. Twins, separated at birth, fer sure. :wink: :laugh:

arielle · October 31, 2004

The restaurant where I work has an extensive by-the-glass wine selection, including half-pours (3oz instead of the usual 6oz).

One of the customers yelled and swore at a server when the bill arrived, because his wife had asked for a 3oz glass of wine, and he had asked for "a glass", so the server thought he wanted a 6oz pour. He accepted the drink and consumed it entirely without saying anything, and it wasn't until it came to pay the bill......and then he went ballistic at her "How dare you *presume* anything! You should have asked me to specify! (insert very foul expletive here)"

Man, this sort of thing really pisses me off. (Please insert very foul expletive here on my part, directed at said "gentleman" ) :angry:

TheFoodTutor · November 1, 2004

Food Tutor...you may add the owner of this place to the List. And I do have to say...it was confusing reading nwyles post earlier...for I really thought it was YOU writing. Twins, separated at birth, fer sure.
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That is a good point you made, CT, about how even nice, well-mannered guests can easily forget to tip on items that are comped. I have a good friend and dining companion here in Atlanta who has told me that, while she is a consistent 20% tipper, even she has forgotten about comped items at times. It's probably a good idea, for this reason, to have some indication on the bill of what the original total was before the comp. And yeah, that owner should either go on the List, or you and I can hold him upside-down and shake him to see if any "bonuses" for his waitstaff fall out of his pockets.

nwyles is looking pretty much like a kindred spirit.

lovebenton0 · November 1, 2004

OK. Pulling this back to topic for a moment -- I do know that some restaurants reward their waitpersons for the amount of items they upsell to customers. This can take the form of actual monetary value as in employee comps for meals (even comps that may be used for guests of said employees) or in accolades for "employee of the month" which may be reflected in choice shifts or other considerations such as time off.

Now I don't have a problem with that per se, however, when the waitstaff pushes the extras at every turn -- never mentioning pricing -- or allowing it to seem as though the offer is part of your meal (as in the bleu cheese dressing mentioned up thread) I am aggravated. It is disruptive to my dining experience to have to continually either decline said offerings throughout my meal or to ask for pricing when the item is something that sounds good. It is also true that I don't think everyone wants to hear "Would you like another basket of bread -- that's $5.00," --or "A $2.00 refill on water/soda/lemonade?" from the server.

More to that if a soft drink of any kind is offered as a "refill" not an ordered item then I am charged for it after that has not been specified on the menu (price per glass/cup) I am likely to feel screwed. What is the problem with being specific on the menu?

Reminds me of the old

"Coffee . . . $.50

Warm ups . . . $.50

Half a cup more . . . $.50"

At least that was honest!

Price listed as per cup/glass/bread basket/etc. on the menu -- or a simple "No Refills" would suffice. If you are orderingan item it is not a refill. That puts the responsibility on the diner.

We are usual 20% tippers -- including comps. I assume the waitperson isn't paid enough for the hard work they do, and often have to deal with testy customers that expect them to miraculously know the moment a need pops into one's mind. Unless the service was really below par for the circumstances (and let's face it that can vary greatly dependent on the level of chaos in any situation) we expect to reward the server for pampering us a bit. That's an important aspect to our dining out experience. If the waitperson has been intrusively upselling us all evening I am less likely to feel as though the "extra" tip is justified and will fall back closer to 15%.

TheFoodTutor · November 2, 2004

I appreciate your comments, Judith, and would like to respond to them as thoughtfully as I can muster.

As far as selling incentives provided to servers for "upselling," I haven't seen this or had the benefit of it in any restaurant where I worked. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but in my experience, the only benefit of upselling has been in the potential that the guest will tip on the added expense to the bill, which is a predictable factor in most people's tipping habits. I've even done extra services - such as setting up a service bar for an extra charge of $100 or so, with only the 20% tip (mandatory, as it was for a private party) split between the 5 or so servers who where serving the party.

If you know of a restaurant where they provide service incentives for upselling on top of our regular tips, I'd love to hear it, since I'd like to apply there.

For service staff, it's definitely a difficult proposition to offer extra bread or a refill, if the restaurant owner chooses to offer such with an added charge. Writing it on the menu might work for literates like you, but for a lot of people who choose to look at the menu in a haze without understanding it, there are obvious problems.

I see evidence of people who don't read our clearly-printed menu daily, such as people who bring in a party of 40, unannounced, and proceed to ignore the fact that our menu states that an 18% gratuity will be added to all parties of 5 or more, and so they scratch out the gratuity on their credit card slips and write in what they see fit, even though they've been given good to above-average service.

I've read a lot of what you've written, Judith, and I think you're decidedly cool, so tell me, what would you do?

KatieLoeb · November 2, 2004

I am totally amazed. The Minnesota Dept. of Taxation posted a newsletter stating that tax can only be applied to the cost of the meal the consumer is paying for when the coupon is NOT reimbursed by a third party.
If the coupon is the restaurant's coupon, and they don't get money back from someone else, then the tax can only be applied to the actual $ the consumer paid.
If on the other hand the coupon is like a store coupon where the manufacturer gives the store back money for the coupon, then the value of the coupon must enter into the taxable column.
Sorry, didn't know that other places did it differently. Its a wide spread practice in Minnesota that is definitely illegal according to the Man himself.
doc
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My understanding of this is that you are taxed on items you sell, not on items you give away.

When I fill out the forms for monthly Sales taxes and Liquor taxes to the Commonwealth of PA, the sales figures I enter are net of comps.

irodguy · November 2, 2004

The $25 edamame would be a shocker, though. $25 for beans?
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Yeah, nuts, ain't it?
But seriously, while it's very possible to get really cheap restaurant food in New York, things generally are more expensive here than in most of the rest of the country. They have to pay higher rents, so we have to pay higher prices for food and so forth. And I'm OK with that as long as I know what I'm paying.
The worst "hidden extra" I ever experienced was being charged an exhorbitant price for 33 cl of mineral water at a Hungarian restaurant on Vigado Ter. I hadn't checked the price for water but it never cost much anywhere else, and their food menu prices seemed reasonable. They showed me the price from the menu when I objected, and they didn't speak English and I didn't speak enough Hungarian to argue effectively, plus I did see the entry on the menu, so I paid up. And no, it wasn't some deluxe water, it was their only water and no better than any other mineral water I got during my stay, which I think was 2 weeks long (in 1994). The thing about tourist-ripoff places is that when they serve good food like this one did, I would have returned if they had treated me honestly. The same thing is true of the Romanian restaurant near the Eiffel Tower which served me a good meal and then tried to charge me for wine I had never drunk nor ordered and were unapologetic about the "error." Fortunately, my French is a hell of a lot better than my Hungarian.
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Yep I have a friend who visits Prague on a regular basis. He speaks Czech so he gets the "cheap" menu. He was telling me that the same exact thing was $3 on the Czech menu and $7 on the English version.

Chris Amirault · November 2, 2004

Really interesting thread. I can understand why tourist traps want to hoosegow the sucker Americans, but I'm utterly at a loss as to why most restaurants would want to make a bit of extra chump change and, in so doing, guarantee that you'll never return. Can someone explain this?

Pan · November 2, 2004

Yep I have a friend who visits Prague on a regular basis. He speaks Czech so he gets the "cheap" menu. He was telling me that the same exact thing was $3 on the Czech menu and $7 on the English version.
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This menu was in Hungarian (of which I do know enough to read asvany viz=mineral water), though I think it may have also been in German and possibly English. But clearly, locals would have known that a restaurant in that location was a ripoff.

Pan · November 2, 2004

Really interesting thread. I can understand why tourist traps want to hoosegow the sucker Americans, but I'm utterly at a loss as to why most restaurants would want to make a bit of extra chump change and, in so doing, guarantee that you'll never return. Can someone explain this?
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Must be a calculated decision on their part that they're more likely to make extra money on people who would be one-time guests anyway than on repeat business. In my case, those places were 0-2 in their decisions.

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