Mayhaw Man gets Mad

[Toliver]

Shhh...keep your voices down. We don't want Varmint to get jealous.

Edited to add: When my mom had to get a new oven, she made the mistake of not taking her biggest cooking pan with her when looking at new models. It wasn't until the new oven was installed in her home that she found out her big dutch oven wouldn't fit inside (the new oven wasn't deep enough). Mom wasn't happy, to say the least.

Edited July 26, 2004 by Toliver (log)

[Mayhaw Man]

Varmint could only be jealous if he admires those that live in a quagmire of filth and debris (but he IS a varmint ).

I have hatched a new plan which I cannot fully reveal until the things get final, but I am bidding on a number of fixtures on ebay. THis all started when I found out that the sink Robin had selected was more than any of the refrigerators I was looking at (how the hell can anybody charge $1400 wholesale for a sink? ) I found the same thing, NEW, on ebay for $175.

THen I started looking at fixtures (halogen lights, drawer pulls, some cabinet hdwe., etc).

I don't know if I will even like the stuff, but at the prices I am trying to buy it at I am sure that I can fall in love with it quite easily.

I will let you know the results of my bargain hunting.

[fifi]

Go with the bottom mount freezer ... most fridges today are equally as energy efficient, and I NEVER suggest a side-by-side unless it's at least 42" wide. Anything less and the fridge side isn't wide enough to be usefull (think party platters). After working with a fridge at an orgonomically proper height, you'll never go back.

And the freezer side is just about worthless for anything other than multiple packages of Lean Cuisine.

Yep... That proper height bit is what sold me on the bottom freezer. (I am short.) A friend of mine just bought one from Sears, Kenmore I think. She is doing a happy dance.

The guys at the showroom got a kick out of me spending about an hour "playing house" to figure it out.

[edsel]

I have one of the "armoire-style" fridges (a Kenmore) that I bought at Sears last year. The bottom freezer is nice, but the main reason I got it is for the width of the refridgerator section. There's a drawer running the full width of the compartment and the shelves can be adjusted to allow full-width storage as well. The LG model looks similar. The only downsides: The filtered water dispenser is inside the left-hand door rather than outside; No ice dispenser; You have to give the left-hand door a little push to make sure it seals (it has the swing-out center column attached).

My old appliances have been very considerate. They have all died during the spring appliance sale at Sears. Two years ago it was the stove, last year the fridge, and this year the dishwasher died. I had to remove some tiles to get the old one out just as Brooks did. Now all I need is a sledgehammer to take care of the cabinets and walls.

[Varmint]

Shhh...keep your voices down. We don't want Varmint to get jealous.

Gee, thanks for reminding me.

Although, I'm reminded every stinkin' day I cook in that labyrinth. Ugh. I really hope the partners' bonuses are huge this year!

[Mayhaw Man]

I have one of the "armoire-style" fridges (a Kenmore) that I bought at Sears last year.

THat is a VERY cool refrigerator. (I guess all refrigerators, when working properly, are cool-but you know what I mean )

[Daddy-A]

I so wanted a separate stove top and wall oven because I wanted a gas stove top and an electric oven. As you may or may not know, a by-product of natural gas being heated is H2O. Not good for when you want stuff to get crisp in the oven. The huge gas oven takes a while to heat and retains heat for a LONG time.

Yay Rachel! Couldn't have said it better myself. Of course there's also the whole stigma people have with regards to gas ovens & sticking heads therein ... I actually had a client pay thousands of dollars to have a 60" Garland range converted from gas to electric! Yep, there it was, this piece of culinary monstrosity, fit for a chef of far greater talents than the owner, retrofitted with ELECTRIC COIL BURNERS. I damn near died.

I've had convection for 3 years now and would never change. It's perfect for baking (4 sheets of Peanut Butter Cookies at the same time!!) and it does a darn fine roast too. You'll have to adjust temperatures and cooking times, but with use it becomes second nature.

Can't help you out with the ice maker. In Canada we just go out to the back yard and cut a new chunk whenever we need it. You may want to consider one that can accept door design panels so it will blend in with the cabinetry.

DA

[Marlene]

I had a bottom mount freezer and I hated it. Once the pull out shelves were loaded with food, I found it almost impossible to pull them out. They were too heavy. I also found out I'm in the freezer a lot more than I thought I was I have a huge side by side Kitchen Aid now with ice maker and I adore it.

I also went with convection ovens when I did my kitchen and I wouldn't trade them for anything now. Convection for roasting and most baking is so awesome!

[andiesenji]

I had a bottom mount freezer and I hated it. Once the pull out shelves were loaded with food, I found it almost impossible to pull them out. They were too heavy. I also found out I'm in the freezer a lot more than I thought I was I have a huge side by side Kitchen Aid now with ice maker and I adore it.

I also went with convection ovens when I did my kitchen and I wouldn't trade them for anything now. Convection for roasting and most baking is so awesome!

I do not like the bottom mount freezers at all. Now with my injured back it would be impossible for me to get anything out of one.

I have two refer drawers, one on one side of the kitchen at the vegetable prep area and the other at one end by the baking station. And I also have a Maytag Wide by Side which has the wider part of the refrigerator at the top and that level of the freezer is narrow and contains the ice maker. Then I have a 10 cf small refrigerator just for cheese and some produce.

They just don't make most side-by-sides as big as they used to. In 1972 I bought a 32cf Kelvinator side-by which worked like a horse for many years. The refrigerator alone was as big as most are now, total. It was huge but it worked. It is still working, I gave it to a women's shelter here in town and they have told me that it may use more electricity than the newer ones but the compressor doesn't run as much as the other one they have.

Freezers are smaller now also. I have an upright 30 cf freezer that has an interior "quick freeze" compartment at the bottom. I bought it perhaps 10 or 12 years ago and I don't think they make them this size any longer.

[jgarner53]

Now all I need is a sledgehammer to take care of the cabinets and walls.

Hey, Edsel, when you're done with that sledgehammer, can I borrow it? I'm dying for a new fridge, and the damn thing (12 years old already) won't DIE!

I'm jonesin' for one of these, (which I saw WAY before I saw Rachel Ray's, FWIW), but for budgetary reasons would probably get an Amana Easy Reach Plus (also bottom mount).

At 6 feet tall, everything in the fridge means a bend (except milk in the door), and while I do use the freezer a lot, I use the fridge a whole lot more!

Mayhaw Man, I'm with ya on the OK&M + wall ovens -- wish I had room for both! I love my range; I just wish the oven were bigger and that whenever I used the broiler it didn't throw the oven's thermostat way off.

[Daddy-A]

Unfortunately the only way to get the dishwasher out was to remove some of the flooring.

I guess it goes without saying that you'll have to make sure the flooring goes INTO the dishwasher opening in your new kitchen. Not that a new DW will EVER break down right??

DA

[robyn]

Just my 2 cents. I'd keep the art and delicate electronics away from heat, smoke and grease (all common in my kitchen at certain times).

The older I get - the less I like to bend over to get things. So I like a side-by-side refrigerator (I also have a cheap top/bottom in the garage for beer - soda - wine - water - watermelons - the huge Thanksgiving turkey - and the very occasional party platter). My husband has become like Don Corleone - the older he gets - the more he enjoys wine. So I plan to buy him a wine cooler for our anniversary (shush - don't tell him ).

I have 30" double ovens - one with convection. I'm not a prolific baker - so I don't think I've gotten my money's worth out of the convection feature after almost 10 years.

I am with you 100% when it comes to commercial appliances. I have Kitchenaid. I don't have to "save" my appliances for company because they take 30 minutes to get up to speed - I use them every day. I do use my toaster oven once in a while - to do things like toast pine nuts. But my ovens heat fast and are easy to use - so I use them a lot. Plus - there are even local people who can repair them (I don't know what happens in New York - but try to get someone where I live who knows how to repair a Garland). Robyn

P.S. I think ordinary appliances can look just fine. Here's the way my "ordinary" appliances look in my kitchen. Also note that the double ovens are placed on the wall so I don't have to bend or reach much to get to them.

[Toliver]

I'm dying for a new fridge, and the damn thing (12 years old already) won't DIE! 

My mom's fridge was in perfect working condition but it was about 10 years old. She bought a new one recently and the difference between the old and new showed up on her first utility bill after the purchase (as in decreased power useage). Seeing the energy savings with the new fridge, she's sorry she didn't do it sooner.

Plus, the new one has see through everything (shelving, drawers, etc) so nothing gets "lost" like it did in the old one. No more refrigerator experiments gone wild!

[Marlene]

Every appliance in my kitchen is a Kitchen Aid, except the dishwasher and I've been very very pleased with them. Both my ovens are convection/electric so I can do either/ or with them.

[Daddy-A]

I am with you 100% when it comes to commercial appliances.  I have Kitchenaid.  I don't have to "save" my appliances for company because they take 30 minutes to get up to speed - I use them every day.

Commercial appliances ... true commercial appliances ... are almost impossible to install in residential applications here in BC simply because of building codes ... in particular ventilation (HVAC) and fire codes (built-in sprinkler systems). The one professional chef I worked with who requested commercial grade Wolf ranges in his kitchen ended up scaling things down to "commercial looking" (but very nice just the same) when he got the quote for ventinilation and make-up air.

There are many commercial looking appliances for those of us without buckets of money to invest. IMO, many of them cost extra simply because they are clad in stainless steel. Function should win out over form ... make sure it does what you need.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted here.

By the way ... nice kitchen robyn. The cabinets look European (10" high kicks). Siematic?

DA

Edited July 26, 2004 by Daddy-A (log)

[jgarner53]

My mom's fridge was in perfect working condition but it was about 10 years old. She bought a new one recently and the difference between the old and new showed up on her first utility bill after the purchase (as in decreased power useage). Seeing the energy savings with the new fridge, she's sorry she didn't do it sooner.

Oh, I know that getting a new fridge would probably lower our utility bill. It's just that the frugal, penny-pinching side of me always wins out in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" argument. But if the money ever fell in my lap (Bush tax cut - ha ha ha ha ha ha, dead relative, lottery winnings, you name it), I'd get a new fridge (and probably a whole new kitchen) in a minute.

[robyn]

By the way ... nice kitchen robyn.  The cabinets look European (10" high kicks).  Siematic?

Poggenpohl. This was the 3rd kitchen I did with German cabinets (built in 1995). The cabinets are kind of addictive . You get so much storage per linear foot. You don't need to build a 20x30 kitchen just to store 2 sets of dishes and a set of pots. This kitchen is 13x14 (in a 2800 square foot house - it's positively huge compared to the 10x12 kitchen in our last place - an 1800 square foot condo).

When I go to fine restaurants - I like to look at the kitchens. They tend to be small - but very efficient. The White House pastry chef whose retirement was announced this week - he made all the desserts for state dinners - and 150,000 Christmas cookies a year - in a kitchen smaller than mine!

Next time I move - I think I might try Bulthaup. Ever use them before? What do you think? And my design would probably be more up to date (most stuff along a long wall with an island between the kitchen/dining area). But I'm not planning to move any time soon - so who knows what design trends will be when that happens.

By the way - whenever I remember building this kitchen - I have to smile. The Poggenpohl place is about 300 miles from where I live. The kitchen arrived one morning on a truck - in about 30 boxes that had been taken off a ship. All the writing on the boxes was in German. The guys on the truck only spoke Spanish. We didn't have a clue that this was *our* kitchen until the installer arrived the next day to do inventory (and install the kitchen - he stayed here for a week). It was stressful (like everything else associated with building a house) - but I think it worked out well. Robyn

[Daddy-A]

When I go to fine restaurants - I like to look at the kitchens.  They tend to be small - but very efficient.  The White House pastry chef whose retirement was announced this week - he made all the desserts for state dinners - and 150,000 Christmas cookies a year - in a kitchen smaller than mine!

My showroom in Vancouver is very close to a large collection of condos ... and if you think 1800 s.f. is small, try 400 to 600 s.f. in some of our bachelor suites! I tend to work with suites larger than that, but the kitchens are pretty small just the same. Yet, the most efficient kitchens I design are the small ones. No room for wasted space I suppose.

Next time I move - I think I might try Bulthaup.  Ever use them before?  What do you think?

Any of the cabinetry that employs "full-overlay" (commonly called European) construction will give you the maxium storage you are looking for. I have my own cabinet builder, so I've never worked (directly) with Siematic, Bulthau or Poggenpohl, although I am quite familiar with them. The next time you indulge yourself, ask about the "Blumotion" drawer glides from Blum ... the drawers won't slam shut. Before they close fully, they stop, and them slowly close themselves. Kessebomer also has some amazing accessories.

DA

[oneidaone]

O.K., here is my feelings based on experience with a Sub-Zero 680S, side by side 42" fridge/freezer.

It sucks. I was elated and ecstatic to order one last year, waiting the 8 weeks to get it here by barge. I kept referring to it as "My 600 pound baby," awaiting it's arrival. So it comes and some of

the coils are bent, a call to headquarters (the first of many) leads to an explanation that this happens all the time during production and they are easily bent back to their original shape...... installation is a bitch and doorways need to be altered to get the thing inside.

Hours and hours later the thing is finally installed and we await with anticipation the ice bucket to

fill up and let the party begin..............

Don't ask me why but the specs didn't impact me enough when if you do the math you realize that

the ice-making capacity is only 96 cubes a day.............Even though it's just two of us here we need

more ice than that daily with all the water we drink. First dissapointment. Another call to headquarters in

WI leads to explanations that "in WI we don't use much ice......" I've plenty friends and relatives in

WI and happen to know that ice is pretty popular even in wintertime. I don't know why they have a

'bulk ice' filling feature inside for coolers unless it is for a chihuahua or other small animal. Then

the door is condensing big time making water on the floor. Turns out that in certain areas of the

country and here in Hawaii there are certain areas of the islands that require a special door to

avoid this problem due to high humidity year round (Haiku area, Maunawili, Nuuanu and Manoa here on Oahu) the door takes several weeks again by barge to arrive. Finally the door arrives and

the condesation problem ceases. In the midst of all of this problems calls to Sub-Zero 'service' dept.

in WI result with innane answers to questions with attitude that we are idiots or something to not

be completely thrilled with their product. You'd think they would know/tell the customer through their rep here that if you live in said areas there is the need for a special door, probably they don't fearing that you would turn to another brand.

Oh, and the size of the interior is small and would be better off for someone single who does not like to cook or eat and keep only beverages inside. You cannot move the drawers on the door because then the outside door does not close properly.........The freezer is equally small and the roll out wire bins barely hold the always necessary 5# bag of ice from the store to balance the lack of ice making

properties. When I ordered this there was no way to see one here, no showroom with this model

other 'similar' models shown at expos and such but not this, this was the only size to fit my built in

area without knocking out walls for the next size/model up. To say I have buyer's remorse is not even close and doubt I will ever buy anything of theirs ever ever ever ever again. We are getting

ready to completely re-do the kitchen and unfortunately an ice maker is in our future........I do not

plan to have it be their brand. I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments and look forward to the continuing story and more pictures of your progress Mayhaw - good luck!!! A hui ho....

[phaelon56]

Try to imagine how much fun it is to have all of these knowledgable people at my fingertips. If I ever finish you are all invited over for a big hoe down.   

Oh. So now I have to delay my surprise visit to the Mayhaw ranch. That's not cool 'cause I didnt budget for staying in a motel

My vote is added to the growing chorus of bottom freezer lovers. I had one once and loved it. Just get some stackable wire mesh baskets with handles and it's easy enough to rotate thigns in and out of the bottom and find stuff.

Your wife, saintly woman that she is, realizes that at your advanced age it will soon be difficult to bend over to get things out of the crisper drawer - she's probably suggesting this bottom freezer business to spare your dignity

My GF has a side by side and they totally bite. Things are difficult to stack' there's never enough room for trays on the fridge side and I just ruined a perfectly good iced latte yesterday that was chilling out in her freezer before our road trip. The damn thing tipped over and fell out when I opened the door 'cause stuff just doesn't stack well. Spare yourself this pain and anguish.

Icemaker? Since I moved the damn gin, bourbon and related beverages out of the house some years ago my ice consumption has dropped to about 10 or 20 lbs per year - most of that for shocking veggies after I blanch them.

Wood floors rock. This is my second kitchen with wood and I wouldn't dream of having anything else. I do put a rug in the work area to spare the floor from excessive wear but the rest of the kitchen is bare, easy to clean and stuff doesn't break too easily when dropped due to the resiliency.

[Betts]

I just finished doing a kitchen remodel. I got a great buy on a GE Monogram and went with it and I do love it but it's still not perfect. One little irritant - the door shelves are not adjustable. I love the freezer on the bottom and I fully support your wife.

To add another issue - what are you doing for a sink? The best decision I made, with eG input, was to go with a large single bowl sink. I have a Franke with Chicago faucets/ wrist blade handles. Really big, really deep - contractor said he did not realize that they now made bathtubs for kitchens! I am thankful for that decision every day.

[fifi]

Betts, you got it on the big sink. I can't wait to get back to one. This "double sink" in this apartment sucks.

I hear all of you on the wood floors but I am a little cautious here. The new house (on Galveston Bay) is sort of retro contemporary casual beach house. I am planning pine plank floors for most of the house. But, I am not sure about in the kitchen. I want the pine to be stained sealed and waxed. No polyurethane need apply because at certain intervals you will have to sand down and start over. I am worried about grease stains in the floor in the kitchen. (If any of you saw my post about the exploding carnitas you will know what I mean.) I am thinking of using commercial vinyl tile. I have had that in other houses and I loved it. It is pretty much indestructable and has the same resilience as a wood floor since, in my case, the CVT would be on a wood subfloor because my living area is one floor up. And, "the look" fits with the overall design.

So, can anyone talk me into wood floors in the kitchen?

Yes. Tile sucks. Been there, done that.

[andiesenji]

I just finished doing a kitchen remodel. I got a great buy on a GE Monogram and went with it and I do love it but it's still not perfect. One little irritant - the door shelves are not adjustable. I love the freezer on the bottom and I fully support your wife.

To add another issue - what are you doing for a sink? The best decision I made, with eG input, was to go with a large single bowl sink. I have a Franke with Chicago faucets/ wrist blade handles. Really big, really deep - contractor said he did not realize that they now made bathtubs for kitchens! I am thankful for that decision every day.

Two things I have, which make life much easier is a new sink faucet I got just last year.

It has a very high arch and the on/off control valve at the end.

and the second is a pot-filler faucet over the cooktop that I had installed with the remodel.

I have a big sink, but there are two sections, one is large and square and 10 inches deep. The other is smaller (where the garbage disposal is located), and not as deep. It is a cultured stone sink, very tough.

[Daddy-A]

I am not sure about in the kitchen. I want the pine to be stained sealed and waxed. No polyurethane need apply because at certain intervals you will have to sand down and start over. I am worried about grease stains in the floor in the kitchen. (If any of you saw my post about the exploding carnitas you will know what I mean.) I am thinking of using commercial vinyl tile.

I'd be concerned about the pine as well. Some designers say that with the stains and dirt the pine develops a "patina." I call it stained. It sounds like you don't want to change the wood in the kitchen, and I agree. Looks like you ran out of one wood and substituted another.

CVT is cool. Have you considered linoleum? The good old stuff they used in schools and hospitals? One brand name you can look for is Marmoleum. Terrific stuff, and practically indestructible. We have 2 kids and two Jack Russel Terriers and it looks as good as the day we put it in.

How about cork? I don't know if it is used where you are, but it was very popular with my clients 4 or 5 years ago. Looks good, wears well, and is easy on your feat.

DA

[fifi]

I'd be concerned about the pine as well. Some designers say that with the stains and dirt the pine develops a "patina." I call it stained. It sounds like you don't want to change the wood in the kitchen, and I agree. Looks like you ran out of one wood and substituted another.

CVT is cool. Have you considered linoleum? The good old stuff they used in schools and hospitals? One brand name you can look for is Marmoleum. Terrific stuff, and practically indestructible. We have 2 kids and two Jack Russel Terriers and it looks as good as the day we put it in.

How about cork? I don't know if it is used where you are, but it was very popular with my clients 4 or 5 years ago. Looks good, wears well, and is easy on your feat.

DA

Well, what I am looking for in the rest of the house is "well used pine". I want the look to be natural. If the doggies leave scratches from their toenails, so be it. Traffic patterns, fine. Think a well used summer house with all of its quirks and that is what I am after. I am talking heart pine or that stuff that comes up out of river bottoms.

However, in the kitchen, grungy grease stains and such would bother me.

Linoleum looks to be more expensive that CVT and I don't see the advantage.