What's the problem with restaurants in Italy?

[albiston]

I have been going through the last issue of Gambero Rosso to put together another digest for this forum. Given my limited free time at the moment ít might take a bit, but since the editorial on this month's issue catched my attention I thought to sum up the sense of the article in this post and ask for other eGulleter's opinion.

The editorial looks at the situation of Italian restaurants in Italy and what, according to GR, is wrong with them. The first point made is that, at the moment, there is a widespread uniformity in food trends in Italy: hundreds of wine tastings featuring always the same wines, same articles in the press, same dishes popping up in restaurants all around Italy and so on.

Since I've been away fro Italy in the past 5 years I admit I'm not completely aware of this portrait is accurate or not (personal observations anyone?) but a few observations come to mind. It is in a certain sense ironic to see GR complaining. They've been arguably one of the driving forces between the widespread interest food has achieved today in Italy and clear trend-setters. It's not their fault if chefs and foodies take inspiration from, or better just copy, what the press likes but they can't deny they have played a role in this situation.

Another problem (though also connected to repetitiveness) seems to be where Italian restaurants, especially the "middle-field" ones are taking their inspiration. Too many chefs try to imitate sheepishly fashionable foreign trends, raw food the latest ones. This, the article points out (with a little attack at the NY eating-out scene), is a mere desire to impress the customer at superficial level. If most Italian restaurants would take the bother to properly prepare the Italian classics (pastas, traditional pizza, gelato) many costumers would be happier especially foreign tourists.

I'm a bit unsure about this one. The point about Italian restaurants offering well made traditional dishes is something I've read from other eGulleters before, and it certainly it is a good one. What I'm more doubtfull about is the point about international influences. It sometimes annoys me to read both in the press and Italian food forums how little opening there is to other cuisines. I can understand that looking to NYC for the trend of the mont is seen as silly, simply because no Italian city has a similar restaurant scene. On the other hand Italian cuisine will have to face the new "stimuli" brought by the many immigrants who're settling in and food writers should be wise enough to recognize Italian cooking is what it is because of the ability to use and make the best of foreign influences (pasta came after all with the Arabs). But that's probably off topic.

Finally Bonilli (GR chief editor) takes on the top restaurants. Here what is criticised is not food but rather the PR skills of these places. In his words:"what all of them are missing is a kitchen Pavarotti. The tenor from Modena hasn't been one of (opera's) greats but he was a great communicator." A good point IMO. One just needs to look at the celebrity chefs from Spain, France, the UK and even Ireland. How many foreigners know the name of a single Italian chef? OK, readers of this forum excluded

What is the impression non-Italians (I mean those living abroad here) get of the Italian Restaurant scene? And for the Italians: do you feel the situation is well depicted?

[pia]

Dear Alberto, it is quite some time that we are discussing on this precise subject on Gambero Rosso Forum

For those who can read Italian, this should be the link:

http://www.gamberorosso.it/cgi-bin/ib3/iko...60;entry93717

I've just invited people from the GRForum to come here, read your post and, possibly, add their contribution.

We haven't come to a conclusion yet. In these days I have little time, but I'll keep you updated in the future.

Pia

Edited June 15, 2004 by pia (log)

[DeirdreStraughan]

I guess I don't frequent the types of restaurants they're talking about, at least not very often. We have explored a few of the Giovani Ristoratori Group, inspired by our beloved Lanterna Verde, but that's about it for adventures in high-end cuisine - we can't afford them too often. But I have noticed that even these types of restaurants do something with local traditional recipes and ingredients, often something inspired (again, Lanterna Verde!). And Crotasch, which I reviewed here a few months ago.

The only repetition I noticed between restaurants was the sudden popularity a few years ago of that melty-in-the-middle chocolate cake thing; it seems to have hit the whole world at the same time. But there were still plenty of other desserts on the menu.

I think there's still plenty of variety and local color, if you look for it. We have always liked the specialties of Valtellina, which our move to Lecco last year happily brought us closer to. We are Slow Food members, and thanks to them have known about Valtellina wines for years. So when we're home we mostly stick to the local goodies. When we travel elsewhere in Italy, we ask locals (e.g. shopkeepers) for restaurant recommendations, and thereby generally end up eating excellent local and seasonal specialties.

Maybe instead of lamenting a lack of creativity and showmanship on the high end, Gambero Rosso should look at the flourishing middle. It's almost impossible to eat badly in Italy, and you can't say that about any other country in the world. Maybe there are no stand-out master chefs simply because there are so many good chefs everywhere that it's hard to single out one.

I will agree that there's a lack of marketing flair. I suppose most places keep so busy with local traffic that they don't see the need to widen the net, and wouldn't know how anyway. The same goes for tourism. I am constantly amazed at the amateurishness (and poor English) of most tourism websites. I do what I can, in my small way, for a few favorite sites and restaurants (nope, don't get anything in return).

[albiston]

I guess I don't frequent the types of restaurants they're talking about, at least not very often. We have explored a few of the Giovani Ristoratori Group, inspired by our beloved Lanterna Verde, but that's about it for adventures in high-end cuisine - we can't afford them too often. But I have noticed that even these types of restaurants do something with local traditional recipes and ingredients, often something inspired (again, Lanterna Verde!). And Crotasch, which I reviewed here a few months ago.

Deirdre, thank you. Your comment confirms my superficial feeling of Italian restaurants. The experiences I had in the occasional visits I make to Italy match yours although I must admit that most of my visits are restricted to country restaurants. My feeling is that the "accused" establishments are to be found mainly in the eating scene of Rome and Milan, at least from what I managed to hear through the grapevine.

Maybe instead of lamenting a lack of creativity and showmanship on the high end, Gambero Rosso should look at the flourishing middle. It's almost impossible to eat badly in Italy, and you can't say that about any other country in the world. Maybe there are no stand-out master chefs simply because there are so many good chefs everywhere that it's hard to single out one.

I have the feeling that GR has a bit of an identitiy crisis. For years they've clearly pushed a modern Haut Cuisine model of dining out, praising to the excess Adria and co and snobbing what you properly call the flourishing middle. Suddenly last year things changed with editorials on "good old traditional food", Trattorie awarded extra recognition in their restaurant guide for the first time and so on. To me this is a bit ironic given the similarity of this "new wave" to what Slow Food has been doing since years, and seeing the recurring poisonous comments devoted to the loved/hated cousins of Slow Food in the monthly GR.

The point about the chefs is a good one. What surprises me is that there is no good, not necessairly top, Italian chef that mamages to get some media attention abroad. Maybe I'm wrong and just it's my Italian inferiority complex but I can't help feeling that if Italian food is seen abroad as something nice, pleasant but which doesn't cut the edge when it comes to top-end eating experience it is also because of the lack of a "personality" collecting attention.

[slkinsey]

In [bonilli's] words:"what all of them are missing is a kitchen Pavarotti. The tenor from Modena hasn't been one of (opera's) greats but he was a great communicator."

Pavarotti hasn't been one of opera's greats?! It's hard to take someone seriously when they say something like that.

It sounds to me like Bonilli is looking at Italian restaurant culture through a French lens.

[DeirdreStraughan]

"The point about the chefs is a good one. What surprises me is that there is no good, not necessairly top, Italian chef that mamages to get some media attention abroad. Maybe I'm wrong and just it's my Italian inferiority complex but I can't help feeling that if Italian food is seen abroad as something nice, pleasant but which doesn't cut the edge when it comes to top-end eating experience it is also because of the lack of a "personality" collecting attention. "

There's Mario (or is it Marco?) Batali on the FoodTV network, but I know nothing about him beyond the name. I'm not sure if he's "genuine" Italian or Italo-American.

I think that overall Italy collectively and individually lacks the marketing nous of many other countries, when it comes to tourism and food.

We went to Vienna for Easter, and I was both impressed and a bit disgusted with their clever exploitation of their famous sons, Strauss and Mozart. There were at least four orchestras, some of them in "period" costumes, performing well-known pieces in historic places for the benefit of tourists. We went to one in the Orangerie. It was pleasant, very orecchiabile, and provided employment for young musicians, singers, and dancers - all to the good.

Surely Italy could do more than the freelance "gladiators" hanging out at the Colosseum!

The attempts to defend "real" pizza, products, etc. via legislation simply come off as shrill and silly. Education is more effective. And, whether GR likes it or not, Slow Food's approach is WORKING.

[Craig Camp]

I have the feeling that GR has a bit of an identitiy crisis. For years they've clearly pushed a modern Haut Cuisine model of dining out, praising to the excess Adria and co and snobbing what you properly call the flourishing middle. Suddenly last year things changed with editorials on "good old traditional food", Trattorie awarded extra recognition in their restaurant guide for the first time and so on.

This is true for both food and wine. For years the Gambero Rosso only awarded top wine awards (Tre Bicchieri) to the most new-wave oaky wines from each region. Now that this is going out of fashion both with consumers and producers they are having to recognize the great wines of traditional producers. This is the same for food where they only heaped praise on international style restaurants (Enoteca Pinchiorri for example) where now all the attention is on region food with artisan raw materials. The Gambero Rosso is now caught in a net of their own extremes.

[albiston]

There's Mario (or is it Marco?) Batali on the FoodTV network, but I know nothing about him beyond the name. I'm not sure if he's "genuine" Italian or Italo-American.

Batali is Italo-American and sure, he does a great job in communicating about Italian cooking. And Marcella Hazan's fantastic work needs to be mentioned too. But they're almost unknowns in Italy. And if you try to explain to Italain foodies that it is these people who carry the Italian food flag abroad, I've done it quite often, you'll get, if you're lucky, a look of disbelief. It's like a link was missing. We Italians have great food, at least I believe , but we take it for granted. If one of "our own" could show what our food is like abroad and, to us, what the world appreciates about it, we'd probably start seeing things with a bit more self-consciousness. At least I hope.

The attempts to defend "real" pizza, products, etc. via legislation simply come off as shrill and silly. Education is more effective. And, whether GR likes it or not, Slow Food's approach is WORKING.

I'm with you there. I really like what Slow Food does in Italy, except maybe their recipes books . Their guide is the reference I use when I look for places to eat in Italy. But don't they push for products legislation too?

If I remember correctlyin '92 when the first GR came out, they were quite close to SlowFood. I never really understood why they moved apart so much. I was reading GR occasionally back then and it was full of references to Petrini and co. Four years later I picked up GR again and references to Slow food had almost disappeared. Anyone knows what happened there?

[albiston]

Pavarotti hasn't been one of opera's greats?!  It's hard to take someone seriously when they say something like that.

I'm afraid that's a quite widespread opinion in Italy, at least between opera lovers. Guess it's another of our Italian idiosyncrasies: if someone has commercial success start criticising them

[pirate]

It seems to me Marchesi received international attention but didn't succeed in Italy nor in Paris. Never having eaten his food, I can't speak to that. I'd like to read some knowledgable comments.

[Carlsbad]

Certainly, Pavarotti is well past his prime, and he is almost shameful in his commercial excess, but I think he will go down as one of the great tenors in the history of opera.

[albiston]

This is true for both food and wine. For years the Gambero Rosso only awarded top wine awards (Tre Bicchieri) to the most new-wave oaky wines from each region. Now that this is going out of fashion both with consumers and producers they are having to recognize the great wines of traditional producers.

Craig doesn't Slow Food have a part in this too? After all the wine guide is a GR-SF joint effort, each going throughthe production of certain regioni. I'm sure SF does Piemonte for example.

Edited June 21, 2004 by albiston (log)

[Craig Camp]

This is true for both food and wine. For years the Gambero Rosso only awarded top wine awards (Tre Bicchieri) to the most new-wave oaky wines from each region. Now that this is going out of fashion both with consumers and producers they are having to recognize the great wines of traditional producers.

Craig doesn't Slow Food have a part in this too? After all the wine guide is a GR-SF joint effort, each going throughthe production of certain regioni. I'm sure SF does Piemonte for example.

I believe the only Gambero Rosso publication published by Slow Food Editore is the Vini d'Italia wine guide. The Gambero Rosso Ristorante d'Italia is published by Gambero Rosso Editore. This causes a lot of confusion. My guess is there is only a legal reason (and thus financial) this situation still exists with Vini d'Italia as I am sure that Gambero Rosso Editore would like to avoid sharing the profits.

The Gambero Rosso Vini d'Italia has been pushing wine producers away from everything Slow Food preaches: local tradition and flavors - for decades and have rewarded growers using foreign methods and varieties and ignored (or worse) producers working in classic styles. However, I am sure that Slow Food is making too much money from publishing this guide to seperate themselves from it even though it preaches an anti-Slow Food position.

Gambero Rosso Ristorante d'Italia is that organizations statement on restaurant quality while Osterie d'Italia is the Slow Food statement - very different positions.

[pia]

The Gambero Rosso Vini d'Italia has been pushing wine producers away from everything Slow Food preaches: local tradition and flavors - for decades and have rewarded growers using foreign methods and varieties and ignored (or worse) producers working in classic styles.

Although I'm risking the OT, let me express my opinion about the evolution of Italian wine-making. I think that Italian wine-makers needed to confront themselves with French competitors with "comparable" wines on the international market. By using foreign methods and varieties they have been able to show to the community of wine lovers that Italians were also skilled in wine making and that Italy could produce high quality wines, elegant and reliable.

It would have been very difficult to win our present market share by promoting the local varieties, mostly unknown abroad, although I'm convinced that they represent our great treasure. And maybe, we wouldn't have been able to produce wines as we do today without testing ourselves through the methods developped by our cousins.

Thanks to the acquired reputation, we can now promote and exploit our "diversity", the wide range of local vines and classic styles of typical Italian wine-making.

I don't know who has been pushing in the past and who's bringing back to tradition today, but I think it had to be so.

[akwa]

Since Catherine de Medici left, Italian gastronomy has been in a difficult position to balance tradition and gastronomy.

I would still argue that the most avant garde chef in the world is Italian:

Davide Scabin of Combal Zero Rivoli Castle Turin

[Craig Camp]

The Gambero Rosso Vini d'Italia has been pushing wine producers away from everything Slow Food preaches: local tradition and flavors - for decades and have rewarded growers using foreign methods and varieties and ignored (or worse) producers working in classic styles.

Although I'm risking the OT, let me express my opinion about the evolution of Italian wine-making. I think that Italian wine-makers needed to confront themselves with French competitors with "comparable" wines on the international market. By using foreign methods and varieties they have been able to show to the community of wine lovers that Italians were also skilled in wine making and that Italy could produce high quality wines, elegant and reliable.

It would have been very difficult to win our present market share by promoting the local varieties, mostly unknown abroad, although I'm convinced that they represent our great treasure. And maybe, we wouldn't have been able to produce wines as we do today without testing ourselves through the methods developed by our cousins.

Thanks to the acquired reputation, we can now promote and exploit our "diversity", the wide range of local vines and classic styles of typical Italian wine-making.

I don't know who has been pushing in the past and who's bringing back to tradition today, but I think it had to be so.

I would agree with this on a commercial level. Barriqued wines from Langhe and Toscana got Italy more attention that would have been possible in any other way. Many of these wines are also very good to great: Sassicaia for example.

However, the use of non-traditional varietals, new cultured yeasts, extreme barrel exposure, roto-fermenters and super-mature grapes have buried the regional characteristics and terroir that Slow Food holds so dear and claims to protect.

Yes these techniques have made Italian wine more commercially successful, but at the same time it has made some of Italy's most famous and expensive wines boringly the same as wines from anywhere in the world. In the short term this was commercially successful, but it the long term it will be a disaster as it removes Italian character from wines and ultimately educates the consumer that there is no unique reason to search out an Italian wine because they taste more or less like all the world's wines.

You can argue that Italy can now promote its traditional varietals and character because of this success, but it is not true. Wines from potentially great varietals like negroamaro, nero d'avola, aglianco, lagrein, refosco and sagrantino (not to mention sangiovese and nebbiolo) are hopelessly buried under waves of oak that eliminate their reason for existence. If you want a wine that tastes like Australian Shiraz you can buy one cheaper from Australia - and it costs them half as much to produce it.

The effect on wine is no different than when you pasteurize cheese. It is no longer a living agricultural product.

[Bill Klapp]

akwa, I couldn't agree more re: Davide Scabin. I just returned from going ten rounds with his "menu creativo", and while I have not yet done the Adria thing in Spain, nothing I have read leads me to believe that Adria is serving up a superior meal. In fact, there are too many reports of mistimed courses and wine service screw-ups at Adria's place, and his experiments, while interesting, lack the whimsy and soul of Scabin's work, which uses traditional Piemontese and Ligurian ingredients and recipes as a lauching pad for some truly creative and delicious stuff...

[pia]

You can argue that Italy can now promote its traditional varietals and character because of this success, but it is not true. Wines from potentially great varietals like negroamaro, nero d'avola, aglianco, lagrein, refosco and sagrantino (not to mention sangiovese and nebbiolo) are hopelessly buried under waves of oak that eliminate their reason for existence.

I agree with you about everything you wrote, except on the quoted part. Indeed there are varietals with extraordinary potentialities, hidden by the mis-use of oak. But after the drunkenness due to novelty, there are many wine-makers who now aim for clearness. And also there are some monuments of Italian wine-making who never lost their way. What about Valentini ( Montepulciano) , Giovanni Conterno (Barolo) , Bruno Giacosa ( Barbaresco e Barolo) , Quintarelli Giuseppe (Amarone) , Jermann ( Vintage Tunina , stainless steel only) , Gravner (waxed amphoras) , Mascarello Bartolo ( Barolo) , Massolino with his Vigna Rionda (Barolo) , Rinaldi e Borgogno ...

I'm confident for our future

[akwa]

akwa, I couldn't agree more re:  Davide Scabin.  I just returned from going ten rounds with his "menu creativo", and while I have not yet done the Adria thing in Spain, nothing I have read leads me to believe that Adria is serving up a superior meal.  In fact, there are too many reports of mistimed courses and wine service screw-ups at Adria's place, and his experiments, while interesting, lack the whimsy and soul of Scabin's work, which uses traditional Piemontese and Ligurian ingredients and recipes as a lauching pad for some truly creative and delicious stuff...

Actually, Ferran has used many of Davide's concepts.

To be sure, Ferran has changed the dynamic of world cooking as much as anyone in the 20th century, in my opinion.

With Davide, we are talking about the 21st century,

where philosophy trumps technique.

[pia]

Actually, Ferran has used many of Davide's concepts.

This is funny! I'm saying it with some regret, because, being Italian I'd rather prefer to say the contrary ... but Ferran Adria started to be Adria long before than Davide Scabin was becoming Scabin!

[Bill Klapp]

Pia, I agree, but I think that the emerging debate is likely to be that Adria is a scientist and Scabin is an artist...

[akwa]

Re precedence, not true entirely

History Scabin began in 1980,

it is merely that on a pop culture level Ferran became an icon first.

[Rob@Nice]

Hi new member here.

I eat in Italy a lot. I live about 1 hour from the italian border in France and visit Italy for markets travel,etc. whenever I can.

Seems to me that Italians are naturally suspcious of anything fussed over. In Italy "sophisticated" is often used in the negative. Though my Italian friends take pride in seeing the success of Super Tuscan wines, etc. None of them drink them, and deep down they realize these are marketing cons.

Why is it that only Italians can make great espresso? And the French, for example, makel espresso almost as bad as Starbucks with the same coffee and machines? Because the Italians do it effortlessly. The whoile process takes about 10 seconds. We have an old family friend from near Spoleto who is one of the best Italian cooks I know. She claims that tomato sauce should never cook more than 10 minutes.

What makes Italian cuisine great is local, fresh ingredients simply prepared. The only "foreign" influences needed are perhaps a little parma ham, parmesan cheese or pecorino from Sardinia.

Last year I went to Radda in Chianti with an Italian friend. We ate a restaurant with soft music, subdued lighting, small artistic portions, and attractive female waitstaff who spoke in hushed tones. IT WAS AWFUL. Sorry, but it was not Italy. There is a place you can Ital--fusion-fpseudo cuisine. It's called California. There's Dallas too.

This year we had a fantastic lunch in the Maremma: pasta with sea urchins, a whole grilled bronzino washed down with local Vermentino. What more could you want?

Where we live in the south of France, many people, when they want this kind of mediterranean cooking by the sea, go to Liguria. They leave the overpriced overdone restos with the star chefs here to the tourists.

[albiston]

Rob,

first of all welcome to eGullet, and thanks for a very stimulating first post.

Your description of what makes Italian cooking great is very well put. Certainly the richness of great local products is fundamental to this. The problem is maybe that many Italians take this for granted. We (I'm Italian too) grow up with certain tastes and they become, for many, the norm. In a certain sense we are sitting on a treasure chest but often ignore it is there. A little more self-awareness would certainly do some good.

Since you put the view-point of a foreigner down so well, there's a point in your post where I'd like to share an Italian point of view.

you write:

Last year I went to Radda in Chianti with an Italian friend. We ate a restaurant with soft music, subdued lighting, small artistic portions, and attractive female waitstaff who spoke in hushed tones. IT WAS AWFUL. Sorry, but it was not Italy. There is a place you can Ital--fusion-fpseudo cuisine. It's called California. There's Dallas too.

I understand your point here, and certainly I'm not calling for places that serve traditional fare to disappear, but is Italian cooking only that of traditional Osterie? If I'm in Italy I certainly like to eat traditional fare but every now and then I also would like to have the chance to eat Italian top-range cuisine. I've often read on this forum that many top-range Italian restaurants monkey the French too much. The question then is: what should Italian restaurants do to reach excellence without loosing their identity?

[pia]

The question then is: what should Italian restaurants do to reach excellence without loosing their identity?

Well done, Albiston! Very good question!

If Rob answers with the same precision of his previous post, we'll have the solution on the subject aroused here and widely discussed also on Gambero Rosso Forum! Almost 130 posts and we haven't been able yet to define which is our identity!

Welcome Rob!