"going all out for chinese"

[mongo_jones]

on the sichuan peppercorn thread i made reference to the san gabriel valley near los angeles as the ground-zero of chinese immigration and cuisine in north america. here's an article from 1999 in the atlantic--i apologize if it is has been linked to and discussed here before.

it verifies that the area has the largest immigrant chinese population in the u.s. more importantly it illustrates why anyone in the u.s who is interested in experiencing a full range of chinese cuisines but cannot go to china should plan a trip to l.a

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jan/chinese.htm

[susruta]

For Chinese food, the best place in North America is probably Toronto, according to my Chinese friends (I would say "foody" friends but most Chinese have an interest in food that far surpasses that of people in other cultures). The general consensus is that it has surpassed Vancouver in the level of the cuisine; I've even heard some people say it is giving Hong Kong a run for its money!

We were there last weekend and enjoyed two wonderful meals. The best was at a fairly new restaurant called Jade Village in Don Mills. It featured peking duck, lobster with ginger, a superb fish dish, a wonderful seafood soup, pork and eggplant, and a vegetable dish at a munificent cost of $40 (US) for four people, though six could, have been satisfied. (The same place features banquets costing up to $900) I live in Chicago but come from Toronto, and the difference between the two otherwise similar cities (both of which I love) couldn't be more striking Chinese restaurants in Chicago are ok but nothing on the Toronto level. In fact, I know of families who drive up to Toronto for the weekend to eat. There is also an incredibly degree of specialization in Toronto: restaurants that specialize in dumplings, in noodles, in tea, in eels, etc. The largest concentrations are in the suburbs, where tourists probably never go.

There is also an interesting subset of restaurants featuring West Indian and Chinese cuisine.

[mongo_jones]

susruta,

not having explored chinese food in toronto (or toronto itself) in detail i can't comment. i wonder, however, if you or anyone else have eaten in both toronto and the san gabriel valley--it would be nice to get a direct comparison. the valley comprises a number of smaller cities--monterey park, rosemead, alhambra, san gabriel--and if toronto has a chinese (people and food) presence of this scale i didn't see it (which is not to say it isn't there). the specialization you speak of is what the san gabriel valley is all about--as the article indicates the competition there is so strong, and the primary audience so discriminating, restaurants that aren't very good don't survive more than a couple of months.

i would love to do a food trip to toronto though--i ate some very good indian food there (it was 6 years ago and i don't remember the name of the restaurant).

regards,

mongo

[susruta]

There are around 500,000 Chinese and Southeast Asians in the Toronto area, an enormous population base that can support a lot of specialized and high-end restaurants. ALso, many of them are from Hong Kong. The South Asian population is, I think, around 250,000 or so. There are a lot of South Indian and Tamil restaurants in the suburbs as well as innumerable West Indian places. Roti (Trinidadian style) might one day become the Canadian (or at least the Torontonian) national dish!

[mongo_jones]

There are around 500,000 Chinese and Southeast Asians in the Toronto area

that's 5 times as many people total in the city i currently live in! no idea what the total chinese population in the san gabriel valley is.

but now i must go order some crappy chinese take-out.

[Ben Hong]

500,000 East Asians, the majority of which are Chinese, is a very conservative figure. There are propbably that many Chinese in Toronto. My work involves frequent contact with my extensive network of trade and diplomatic people from the "orient", ie: China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, etc. Most of the diplomats would agree with Susruta when he says that Toronto could give Hong Kong a run for the money in the culinary field. And, these guys are serious about FOOD. I know.

[mongo_jones]

okay, so i did a little research and as of 1990 there were roughly 245,000 chinese immigrants in los angeles county (the majority in the san gabriel valley). monterey park was already the second most popular destination for immigrants from china and taiwan (the most popular for the taiwanese) behind nyc. my understanding in my years in l.a (i too arrived after 1990, though not from china) was that the real explosion happened in the mid 90s. wonder what the numbers are like now.

this is the study i'm drawing on: http://www.camla.org/history/sangabri.htm

i suppose another question might be this: how much of toronto's immigrant chinese population is first generation? my sense of san gabriel valley chinese populations is that they're made up of vast numbers of newly arrived immigrants.

that being said, let me amend my initial statement and make the claim i made for north america for the united states only.

[Gary Soup]

There are  around 500,000 Chinese and Southeast Asians in the Toronto area, an enormous population base that can support a lot of specialized and high-end restaurants. ALso, many of them are from Hong Kong. The South Asian population is, I think, around 250,000 or so. There are a lot of South Indian and Tamil restaurants in the suburbs as well as innumerable West Indian places. Roti (Trinidadian style) might one day become the Canadian (or at least the Torontonian) national dish!

The San Francisco Bay Area has 1.3 million Asians, according to U.S. Census Data. (By definition, this includes Japanese, Indians and Filipinos as well as Chinese and SE Asians). There's STILL not enough Asian restaurants.

2000 Census Data for SF Bay Area

[tissue]

I can attest that the SGV has very very good Chinese restaurants in terms of quality and types of cuisine (meaning more than cantonese), better than New York, better than SF. Probably a notch below Vancouver, but haven't been to Toronto so I don't know.

[Gary Soup]

I can attest that the SGV has very very good Chinese restaurants in terms of quality and types of cuisine (meaning more than cantonese), better than New York, better than SF. Probably a notch below Vancouver, but haven't been to Toronto so I don't know.

I presume you meant better than SF in non-Cantonese. I think SF can hold its own in Cantonese cuisine with any North American City, but is sadly thin in other regional cuisines.

[russ parsons]

anyone interested in chinese food in the sgv ought to check out carl chu's invaluable book "finding chinese food in los angeles" if i was smart enough to figure out how to include an amazon link i would ... it's there.

[tissue]

I can attest that the SGV has very very good Chinese restaurants in terms of quality and types of cuisine (meaning more than cantonese), better than New York, better than SF. Probably a notch below Vancouver, but haven't been to Toronto so I don't know.

I presume you meant better than SF in non-Cantonese. I think SF can hold its own in Cantonese cuisine with any North American City, but is sadly thin in other regional cuisines.

Is it true that live seafood tanks are outlawed in SF?

[Ben Hong]

I would hazard a guess that the majority of the Asian, especially the Chinese community in Toronto is first generation. The start of the 40 year surge in Chinese immigration was in the late sixties, with the liberalization of the Canadian immigration laws, reaching a crescendo in the decade leading up to the repatriation of Hong Kong. This massive tidal wave of immigrants from HK was the first time in the history of human migration where the new arrivals were, as a group, wealthier and better educated than the resident host country. Socialogically, this speaks immense volumes.

[Gary Soup]

I can attest that the SGV has very very good Chinese restaurants in terms of quality and types of cuisine (meaning more than cantonese), better than New York, better than SF. Probably a notch below Vancouver, but haven't been to Toronto so I don't know.

I presume you meant better than SF in non-Cantonese. I think SF can hold its own in Cantonese cuisine with any North American City, but is sadly thin in other regional cuisines.

Is it true that live seafood tanks are outlawed in SF?

Absolutely not. Every decent Chinese restaurant and many markets have them. The animal rights activists have thrown their best ammunition against Chinatown markets, but the powers that be have wisely upheld the cultural values of the Chinese community (lot of votes out there). You can still get live fish, crustaceans, chickens, frogs, soft-shelled turtles, whatever. My wife buys live "huang mao" chickens and brings them home on the bus!

[mongo_jones]

i believe the study i looked at (or maybe another one) says that something like 90% (!) of adults over the age of 25 in the san gabriel valley are first generation immigrants.

[susruta]

Ben, you are so right! The contributions of Asian immigrants to Toronto and Canada has been enormous, on the economy, of course, but especially in the culinary area. And this doesn't apply only to Chinese food; if you go to a French restaurant in Toronto, for example, a large proportion of the clientele will be Chinese. Someone told me that in Vancouver the waiters in French restaurants speak Cantonese -- but this story may be apocryphal. . .

[Gary Soup]

Vancouver and TO have benefitted from some tranplanted chefs and HK-owned restaurants (San Francisco has a few of those, too). San Francisco may also have a definable "evolved" Cantonese cuisine of arguable haute-ness.

A book with the title "Western US Chinese Cuisine," published recently in Taiwan, caught my eye while browsing in EastWind books in San Francisco last weekend. Unfortunately, except for the title, the book was entirely in Chinese. Based on the pictures, however, it was NOT a history of chop suey, nor a paean to retro sweet and sour pork and tomato beef chow mein. It was replete with illustrations of exquisitely presented (and presumably prepared) dishes that would elevate the cachet of any Cantonese wedding banquet. Inside the back cover was a group photo of the 1982 graduating class of an SF Chinatown cooking school, and I'm guessing that the chef whose picture graces the frontispiece was part of that class. Has anyone else seen this book? I'd love to get Ju Ju to read it and tell me what it says, but fat chance of that.

[confusion]

Wonderful thread. I went to Toronto a couple of years ago and I have to admit the food was incredible. First night I flew in around 10:00 (I think) and ate at this packed 24 hour restaurant. Ordered about 6 dishes for 4 people, and each blew away everything I've had in the states. Though it didn't hurt that I was starving from the plane ride.

However I'm moving to LA this August so I'm not going to comment on which is better just yet. Wonder if renting an apartment in east LA is worth the traffic from hell.

[Fred12fred]

Admittedly, my tastes run more towards the Cantonese style Chinese food (blame it on my HK born wife )...but I've found that the Chinese restaraunts on the East Coast (NY and Philadelphia Chinatowns) are significantly better than what I've found in LA. We've lived for years in Southern Calif, Wash DC, and San Francisco.

To me, the biggest difference is that the restaraunts that we've frequented on the East coast will serve the food very soon after cooking, so you get that "wok-chi" effect of smoky goodness (especially for chow-fun and other noodle dishes and don't get me started on the custard tart right out of the oven that I had in Philadelphia which was THE singular best dim sum item I have ever had...it haunts me to this day... ). From my experience in LA, you just don't get that immediate serving of the dishes and, as a result, you lose that essence that, to me, separates restaraunt Chinese food from home-style. Also, for some reason, LA chinese food tends to be salty to my taste.

To me, SF Chinese food is better than LA. I especially like the roast duck and cha-shu that we used to buy on a weekly basis from one of the BBQ shops in Chinatown...we still haven't found any place that makes roast duck that even comes close...

Also, based on limited experience, Toronto and Vancouver Chinatown restaraunts are on par with NY and Philly. We had an especially memorable chow fun in a hole-in-the-wall restaraunt in Toronto's Chinatown on a vacation there years ago

[russ parsons]

i don't presume to know enough about fine chinese cooking to comment on the relative merits. but i do have in my hot little hands the new edition of chinese food finder: los angeles by the estimable carl chu. he has really done an amazing job of organizing the various regions and which restaurants in la/sgv represent them best.

[andiesenji]

I love the House of Louie in West Covina. It is a Hong Kong style restaurant, not the usual type of place. I don't even look at the menu, I ask what the server recommends and also ask if they can make what I like and if they have the ingredients they will prepare whatever you ask for, within reason. The spicy green beans with cloud ear mushrooms is so good I could make a meal on that alone. The Hot Pot is also very good. The last time I was there I was served a bowl of soup with little purple "flowers" in it, baby octopi. It was sort of like Wor Won Ton in that there were fat noodles in the bottom of the bow, but not filled. Delicious....

While not a traditional strictly Chinese restaurant, Tasty-House in the City of Industry serves Chinese, Thai and Korean food and does it very well indeed. Friends and I go there whenever we have been to Fairplex for various events and have never been disappointed. Service is excellent and their prices are phenomenal.

They have a web site: http://www.tasty-house.com/door/

However, my favorite over all, is Quanjude Beijing Duck Restaurant in Rosemead. This is a branch of the famous restaurant in Beijing. It is more expensive than most of the Chinese restaurants and you need reservations for weekends, but the food is authentic and mostly Mandarin style. The duck especially is outstanding.....

They have a framed clipping on the wall of President Nixon having Beijing duck at the restaurant in China during his trip there.

[Hest88]

The San Gabriel restaurants are indeed incredible. There are some HK style Cantonese restaurants here in the SF Bay Area that are as good, but we don't have anywhere near as many. Plus, they also have a lot of other regional cuisines. There are a lot more authentic Chinese restaurants here, particularly in the South Bay, then there were even 5 years ago, so hopefully we'll catch up soon.

I was last in Toronto 10 years ago when they were just starting to build those HK style shopping centers, but if they've surpassed Vancouver now they must be quite something.

Fred12fred, you must come back and try the higher-end HK style restaurants. I can't speak so much to the noodle dishes---that's not usually what I eat when I'm down in So. Cal.---but there are certainly seafood restaurants and dim sum that are very fine indeed.

[Fred12fred]

The San Gabriel restaurants are indeed incredible. There are some HK style Cantonese restaurants here in the SF Bay Area that are as good, but we don't have anywhere near as many. Plus, they also have a lot of other regional cuisines. There are a lot more authentic Chinese restaurants here, particularly in the South Bay, then there were even 5 years ago, so hopefully we'll catch up soon.

I was last in Toronto 10 years ago when they were just starting to build those HK style shopping centers, but if they've surpassed Vancouver now they must be quite something.

Fred12fred, you must come back and try the higher-end HK style restaurants. I can't speak so much to the noodle dishes---that's not usually what I eat when I'm down in So. Cal.---but there are certainly seafood restaurants and dim sum that are very fine indeed.

Hest88,

When we were in LA, we would take weekly trips to the San Gabriel 99 Ranch shopping mall. (on a side note, I have to say that you don't know what a great place 99 Ranch stores are until you don't have one nearby. They have the best fresh fish counter that I've ever seen. I especially like that the one that we live near now stocks live black cod for $6.99/lb!!! )

My wife and I just loved the vegetarian steamed dumplings and the hand pulled noodles at Chu's Mandarin in the mall. Also, we would make frequent visits to MPV Seafood for dinner. For dim sum, we used to go down to Empress Pavilion in Chinatown...but it was always so crowded that we started to feel like it wasn't worth the time...

But, it's been years since we were there...a road trip may be in order now...

[jschyun]

i don't presume to know enough about fine chinese cooking to comment on the relative merits. but i do have in my hot little hands the new edition of chinese food finder: los angeles by the estimable carl chu. he has really done an amazing job of organizing the various regions and which restaurants in la/sgv represent them best.

When can we get a copy of this? It says July 2004 publishing date. Or maybe I'm wrong.

--never mind found it

Also, if this was an update of his 2003 book, why the different name?

Edited July 22, 2004 by jschyun (log)

[hzrt8w]

I think SF can hold its own in Cantonese cuisine with any North American City, but is sadly thin in other regional cuisines.

Gary Soup:

My wife and I will be visiting San Francisco in August. Is there any Shanghainese cuisine in SF at all? Would be nice to have some xiaolonbao and lion heads. Couldn't find those in Sacto.