My Own Kitchen Renovation

[JennotJenn]

I know several other kitchen renovations have been covered here, but I have some specific questions that I can't find the answer to elsewhere.

We've just bought (well, we have a contract on) our first house. It was built in 1953. 1200 square feet. Kitchen, including eating space (there is no dining room, though we could turn the small bedroom into one) is 16.5x9. Not tiny, but not huge either. We want to spend under $7000 total, including appliances. Oh, we only really need a range, but depending on the condition of the dishwasher, we'll need one of those, too. The fridge appears to be in good condition.

I agreed to buy this house on one condition: that we could redo the kitchen upon closing. Immediatly. It's very mid-late 80's, with the cheap looking "oak" cabinets, white/pink/blue wallpaper, oak trim, and vinyl floor.

There will not be any major work. No tearing down walls, no new/ripping out cabinets, no reconfiguration, etc. We will have to have countertops installed eventually, and that (other than appliances) will be our major expense. Basically, it's a small first house, and we don't want to put too much money into it for fear that we won't be able to get it out when we sell it, but I want to be able to enjoy my kitchen for the 5 years or so I'll be in it. Appliances are a big deal, something I don't find spending more on, since we can take those with us when we move.

We do plan on ripping up the vinyl, which will be likely be replaced by hardwood. The wallpaper will be removed. I'm going to put wainscoting in the dining nook. I'm going to paint the walls and cabinets and build in a couple of floor to ceiling shelves around the windows in said nook. If we run into major problems (rotten wood underneath the floor, something like that), we'll hire help, but barring that, we're DIY.

Now, on to stuff I'm not even sure I know how to ask: the ventilation is unlike anything I've ever encountered in a kitchen. It's vented through the roof, but the fan is like a bathroom vent fan...set into the ceiling, no vent hood or anything. Is this normal? Is this going to cause problems? The range is at a place where a hood would be difficult to put in...it's in an island type place (but not really an island). It would have to suspend from the ceiling, and because the kitchen is pretty small, I'm afraid it would dominate the room.

I guess that's the main problem for now. I don't know what range I'm going to go with, but it's going to need to be around 30'' to fit in existing space. Seriously, I'm pretty baffled about what to go with, even after reading all these threads. I want something pretty high quality, but I don't want to spend a ton. I can handle around $2000. Any ideas? I'm afraid most of the brands I would be interested in would be priced out of my range, but I'm open to suggestion. I'm thinking about a Miele dishwasher (hate, hate, hate noise), but was wondering if anyone had experience with less expensive dishwashers that were almost as quiet as (or as quiet as) the Miele.

Oh, also, the house is heated by gas, but the appliances are electric. Anyone have any experiences with having the house converted to gas in the range area? Since we already have a hook up, I don't think it will be a problem, but I'd like to know if anyone knows for sure.

Sorry if all this has been covered before or if my writing style makes no sense.

Edited May 22, 2004 by JennotJenn (log)

[mnebergall]

If I were you (which I'm not) I would take a look here.

[andiesenji]

In a 30 inch range, to get the most bang for your buck take a look at the Bosch.

http://www.us-appliance.com/hgbo30gasfrc1.html

Two of my neighbors bought this model, one last summer and the other in December (It was a Christmas present).

They both love it. I have cooked on it and the cooktop is every bit as good as mine and cost less... The 15000 btu burner is hot enough to adequately heat a wok and the continuous grate makes it easy to move large pots and pans.

The warming drawer is a great plus and one that is not found on every range.

If I had to furnish a kitchen with a small range this would be my choice.

[Cusina]

Woo Hoo! Congratulations on the new house. Your first is such fun.

We have had a 1950s house in the past, and it had a vent fan like the one you are describing. It's just fine for normal cooking. It's major fault is that you will loose heat/ac from there, but not enough to worry about (or at least that was our experience). With a standard 30" range, you should be just fine without a hood.

Definitely go with the hardwood in the kitchen, I did and haven't looked back. Have a few contractors come in and price out the install for you. I was suprised at how relatively inexpensive the cost was to have it done vs. just purchasing the raw materials. Maybe that is just our area, but it's worth checking it out.

I LOVE my Dacor. It's a standard 30" range, gas burners, convection/electric oven. It was the big splurge in my kitchen (I think it was about 2,000 or 2,500)and so well worth it. I did have some small problems with the self-cleaning function, but they came out and fixed it immediately. link! We have the stainless version. It was not terribly expensive to run the gas line up to our kitchen. As long as you have gas in the house already it is no big deal, any plumber will do it for you. I love this stove for it's huge burners.

Also look into having your cabinets refaced instead of replaced. That can be a big money saver. And don't go with black formica countertops... we made that mistake in our first house. They look cool, but every single little waterspot or bit of salt spilled on the counter was visible. Kind of a nightmare.

Good luck!

[JennotJenn]

Thanks. I actually went to Consumer Reports from there, which, as a testament to what kind of week this has been, completely slipped my mind as a good source of information.

[JennotJenn]

Woo Hoo! Congratulations on the new house. Your first is such fun.

We have had a 1950s house in the past, and it had a vent fan like the one you are describing. It's just fine for normal cooking. It's major fault is that you will loose heat/ac from there, but not enough to worry about (or at least that was our experience). With a standard 30" range, you should be just fine without a hood.

Definitely go with the hardwood in the kitchen, I did and haven't looked back. Have a few contractors come in and price out the install for you. I was suprised at how relatively inexpensive the cost was to have it done vs. just purchasing the raw materials. Maybe that is just our area, but it's worth checking it out.

I LOVE my Dacor. It's a standard 30" range, gas burners, convection/electric oven. It was the big splurge in my kitchen (I think it was about 2,000 or 2,500)and so well worth it. I did have some small problems with the self-cleaning function, but they came out and fixed it immediately. link! We have the stainless version. It was not terribly expensive to run the gas line up to our kitchen. As long as you have gas in the house already it is no big deal, any plumber will do it for you. I love this stove for it's huge burners.

Also look into having your cabinets refaced instead of replaced. That can be a big money saver. And don't go with black formica countertops... we made that mistake in our first house. They look cool, but every single little waterspot or bit of salt spilled on the counter was visible. Kind of a nightmare.

Good luck!

Ok, this is all great information. Yay! $2000-$2500 isn't out of my price range (heh, no pun intended), especially knowing that it won't cost too terribly much to run a gas line.

And it's so good to know that we won't really need a hood. That was a fairly major concern.

We'll check out the cost of flooring install. Dude, David Sedaris's brother has a hardwood flooring business in our town. It's even a division of "Silly P" enterprises. I should totally see what "The Rooster" charges for an install. Since it's such a small area, it may be possible. I'd rather save the money and get awesome appliances though

[fifi]

Below is some of my experience in designing a kitchen for a new house. Also, some of it may be specific to my area so take that into consideration.

I would suggest that you look at the GE line of appliances. Their top is Monogram which might be a bit pricey for the budget. The dishwasher in that line is "European style" and is supposed to be quiet. (That is also a major consideration for me in the new house.)

Here is the monogram home page.

The next line down is Profile. That DW is supposed to be quiet, too. I will ask my daughter. She just bought a condo in the DC area and it has Profile appliances.

Here is the Profile home page.

No, I don't work for GE. I just found that, for the Houston area, they had about the best combination of cost and features. They also have the best service here. That was a big part of my decision. I researched the hell out of this for the new house. There are a lot of options out there and a lot of other brands. I started at the big upper end home stores (Expo) and some builder supply places.

I am a bit confused about you being able to take the appliances with you when you sell. How would you do that? That might influence of your decision on how much to invest. (Here, if I ripped out a cooktop, for instance, it would have to be replaced with something in order to sell the house.)

The ventilation issue is certainly intriguing. I can imagine that what you describe is pretty much useless. At least you have the ductwork to the outside. You really can't get by without a hood. Yes, they are less conspicuous on a wall as opposed to an island.

Island cooktops can be a problem for that reason. Gas is certainly the way to go for the burners, electric for the oven. In some jurisdictions, building codes do not allow gas cooktops in an island. In some places, you can do it but the ventilation requirements can get complicated. And, running a gas line to the island could be a big problem unless you have access to the space under the kitchen. (Basement? We don't have those here.) Don't discount the possibility of moving the range to an outside wall. That may be a reasonable solution and less trouble than you think. (But then maybe not. That depends on a lot of the details of the existing construction and utilities.)

A warning about countertops... The Silestone and granite countertops are certainly beautiful but I... Just... Can't... make myself spend that kind of money. I would be wary of putting that kind of investment in a starter home. When you investigate those options and get a price, be sure that you are sitting down. For my house, pretty big kitchen (16x16?) with an island, I could buy a pretty decent car for the cost of that. My designer is looking at tile and laminate, leaning toward laminate because it fits the look of the place. I have had laminate in most every house I have had and have never found it wanting. I have also had tile in my sister's and mother's kitchen and it was fine. You can do some beautiful things with tile and it can be surprisingly cheap.

Best of luck. I am sure you will get a lot of advice here. If you can do pictures, that would be a big help.

Oh... edit to add: Before you get too excited about the cost of the 30" range, don't forget to add installation. Again, building codes rear their ugly head. Any electrical or gas work will likely require a licensed plumber and electrician and those guys are not cheap. That is not a DIY proposition. And you need to keep permit records and installation records on that type of renovation work or your insurance could be void. If you are in an area where there are no codes, be sure to check with your insurance to be sure that DIY doesn't void the policy anyway.

[JennotJenn]

It's not exactly an island. The kitchen is L shaped, with cabinets covering the long leg of the L. The space above the short leg is open, and is where the range is.

Here, no appliances are assumed to convey. You can take the fridge, range, washer/dryer, whatever. The house we looked at before this one, neither the range nor the fridge conveyed.

[Rachel Perlow]

It's not exactly an island. The kitchen is L shaped, with cabinets covering the long leg of the L. The space above the short leg is open, and is where the range is.

That's called a peninsula.

Good luck with the renovation. I think wood is a good choice, I which I had done wood instead of tile on the floor.

[JennotJenn]

It's not exactly an island. The kitchen is L shaped, with cabinets covering the long leg of the L. The space above the short leg is open, and is where the range is.

That's called a peninsula.

Good luck with the renovation. I think wood is a good choice, I which I had done wood instead of tile on the floor.

We lived in a fairly posh apartment when we first moved into town, and the kitchen was tile. I learned very quickly that I did not want tile when I did my own kitchen---makes my legs and back hurt if I stand too long, and since I do both a lot of baking and a lot of cooking, I'm always standing for too long. I think cork would be cool, but that it might lead to some head scratching on the part of any potential future buyers. Besides, hardwood matches the rest of the house.

Thanks for telling me what that feature was. If I'd paid a little more attention in geography when I was a kid, I could have figured it out Now I know how to describe it to anyone who asks. I'm still waiting for a tiebreaker opinion on whether or not I'll need a hood of some sort.

I've decided to look hard at solid-surface veneer for countertops. It looks the same and performs about the same as full-on solid surface, but is a 1/3rd cheaper on average. I am not careful in the kitchen. I'm lazy, absentminded and clumsy as hell, and am always setting something on the counter that I shouldn't, or dropping things, pr scratching the surface with my bread knife (oh, no need to drag out the wooden board) and so on. Laminate is cheap, but may not be the best thing for me because of the aforementioned charcacter flaws, though it's still coming in as a solid 2nd choice. I do have a little area off to the side of the fridge that has a small, one door cabinet and an about 1'x1' counter, and I'm thinking about turning that into butcher block, for cutting breads. I do quite a bit of bread baking, and it would be nice to be able to get rid of my unwieldy (cheap) wooden cutting board. Besides, it's a small space and therefore, upkeep wouldn't be horrible. Rock of any sort is out. I can't do the upkeep and it's too pricey.

I'm looking at the GE Profile series for the range. Not too expensive, reliable, a good performer, and it has terrific oven capacity. I'd love to be able to do a cooktop and a separate oven, but the space just doesn't allow for it. The reasonable price will also allow extra cash for running a gas line, any installation fees and any additional venting that I may need.

Consumer Reports has some good dishwasher ratings...if we need one, I'm looking at the GE as well.

[fifi]

I talked to my daughter who has a GE Profile dishwasher. She says that it is very quiet. Having looked at the specs on dishwashers, the one thing that I find aggravating is that they don't give noise ratings in something like decibels.

I can't fit wall ovens into the new place either. On reflection, since I have had both wall ovens and a range, I really think I prefer the ovens in the range. I am short. I find that the lower down position of the oven in a range works better for me. My sister has double wall ovens, stacked. The upper one is a bitch for me to deal with.

I have also had butcher block on a small area as you describe. Don't worry about upkeep. I don't recall that I ever did anything to it other than clean it once in a while. When it was first installed, it was sealed with food grade mineral oil (like you get at the drug store) and that was it. You don't want to use vegetable oil as it polymerizes and gets sticky. Of course, I used it primarily for bread, not carving greasy roasts.

I am planting a subliminal thought here that you need good ventilation. I have had kitchens with it and without. I consider without close to unacceptable. (And, codes may require it for gas.)

[JennotJenn]

I talked to my daughter who has a GE Profile dishwasher. She says that it is very quiet. Having looked at the specs on dishwashers, the one thing that I find aggravating is that they don't give noise ratings in something like decibels.

I can't fit wall ovens into the new place either. On reflection, since I have had both wall ovens and a range, I really think I prefer the ovens in the range. I am short. I find that the lower down position of the oven in a range works better for me. My sister has double wall ovens, stacked. The upper one is a bitch for me to deal with.

I have also had butcher block on a small area as you describe. Don't worry about upkeep. I don't recall that I ever did anything to it other than clean it once in a while. When it was first installed, it was sealed with food grade mineral oil (like you get at the drug store) and that was it. You don't want to use vegetable oil as it polymerizes and gets sticky. Of course, I used it primarily for bread, not carving greasy roasts.

I am planting a subliminal thought here that you need good ventilation. I have had kitchens with it and without. I consider without close to unacceptable. (And, codes may require it for gas.)

Yeah, I wish I could sneak in there and find out how hard that fan sucks. My grandma has an insanely strong attic fan (too strong, but God it will suck everything out of the room)), that has a vent that looks like the one in the kitchen. Of course, we have a bathroom fan that has a vent that looks like the one in the kitchen. I'm hoping that the one in the kitchen will be somewhere between the power of the attic fan and the bathroom fan. That would work out ok, I think. At least there's already a vent out the roof, so we wouldn't have to do much work there.

The home inspection is on Wednesday. I'll see if I can make the inspector check, or at least sneak in there and turn the fan on myself. Wonder if I could just add a stronger fan and still not have a hood to direct the fumes/steam/whatever.

[JennotJenn]

Ok, I'm just going to have to go with an island hood, I think, and my husband is just going to have to get over it (he's...thrifty...). I could do a downdraft, too, I guess, which he likes better because it's cheaper. I've heard they don't work as well, though. Any ideas about that?

It's not that we can't afford to do this right, but my husband takes some convincing if something costs over $100.

[fifi]

What you need to know is how many cubic feet per minute that the thing sucks.

I found this sizing guide based on hood dimensions. However, when I was specifying my appliances I recall that the guideline was based on collective BTUs of the range. That meant that this range and hood set up (click on "view installed product") calls for 1200 cfm. Actually, I think the sizing approach on the first link makes more sense. Maybe we will get an HVAC expert in here on this.

[JSD]

I can't fit wall ovens into the new place either. On reflection, since I have had both wall ovens and a range, I really think I prefer the ovens in the range. I am short. I find that the lower down position of the oven in a range works better for me. My sister has double wall ovens, stacked. The upper one is a bitch for me to deal with.

A range is not your only alternative to wall ovens. You could have separate wall ovens installed under the counter. The only advantage to a range is a little flexibility, allowing you to put the ovens in a location that's more convenient. We have two wall ovens, installed under the counter, opposite each other.

[ruthcooks]

The one time I built a house, I had two single wall ovens built in side-by-side, with drawers beneath for pots and pans. Avoided that "oven in the sky" problem. Had 36 linear feet of counter space, plus another 12 of breakfast bar. Yes, Virginia, it is possible to have a too-big-kitchen. I've lived in over 25 houses over the years and find a U-shaped is most convenient, but I love islands too.

[fifi]

A range is not your only alternative to wall ovens.  You could have separate wall ovens installed under the counter.  The only advantage to a range is a little flexibility, allowing you to put the ovens in a location that's more convenient.  We have two wall ovens, installed under the counter, opposite each other.

When I did a two or three month cooking diary before designing this kitchen, I considered what you propose. I found that in my style of cooking, I was more comfortable with the heat sources being in one place, ergo a range. Also, I would have had to sacrifice a window to put in wall ovens. Since those windows would look out on Galveston Bay, there was no contest. But that is just me. Anyone that does a cooking diary to see what they need could come to a completely different conclusion.

[JennotJenn]

Without getting into some expensive tearing out and replacing of cabinets, wall oven isn't going to work. Which is fine, really...not spending money on custom cabinets is more important than having a cooktop and a separate wall oven. I am sorta thinking about dual fuel now, though, which would serve the purpose I was going for all along...gas cooktop, electric oven. Though, seriously, I think a gas oven wouldn't be too much of a problem. Consumer Reports gave the all-gas GE Profile excellent ratings in both the cooktop portion and oven portion of that range. Really leaning towards that product. Now I'm off to gardenweb, which mnebergall

posted, to check out talk on range hoods. I think my dealie is that I've got the roof vent and the fan, but not the chimney and the hood. Despite warnings by our real estate agent not to speak to the home inspector (she says he's a "talker", and she is not a patient woman), I'm going to ask him to check that out while he's in the attic. I realized that once I take down the God-awful chandelier that's crapping up the dining nook, a slim chimney wouldn't look so bad after all. The idea of a chandelier and a chimney hanging down in the same room was messing up my vision. And I've told husband that 1) he doesn't have a choice, and 2) if he'll give in on this point, his clothes will never smell like caramalized onions again (a problem in our poorly ventilated apartment). I'm thinking that's worth a grand or two right there.

[bleudauvergne]

Despite warnings by our real estate agent not to speak to the home inspector (she says he's a "talker", and she is not a patient woman), I'm going to ask him to check that out while he's in the attic.

By all means ask him! Too bad for the real estate agent. Even if it takes up an extra 20 minutes of your time, it's that much more you'll know about the house, and that much more knowledge you can take into a conversation with someone giving you an estimate on an installation. Screw the real estate agent and milk that guy for all he's worth. Talk it to death, is my advice.

Have you considered rubber flooring? We put that in our kitchen and I love it. Here's a link to Artigo, we chose the Plansystem ND-NAT. If that kind of flooring interests you, you can most likely find a local distributor or someone who makes a similar product. We also considered stone and mosaic, and all the rest, but as you said the prices are just sky high. I started thinking about a kitchen my father installed in the basement of the house he built (a second kitchen), which he floored with stud rubber flooring. I chose something completely different in style but stuck with the rubber flooring. We like it a lot.

[JennotJenn]

Despite warnings by our real estate agent not to speak to the home inspector (she says he's a "talker", and she is not a patient woman), I'm going to ask him to check that out while he's in the attic.

By all means ask him! Too bad for the real estate agent. Even if it takes up an extra 20 minutes of your time, it's that much more you'll know about the house, and that much more knowledge you can take into a conversation with someone giving you an estimate on an installation. Screw the real estate agent and milk that guy for all he's worth. Talk it to death, is my advice.

Have you considered rubber flooring? We put that in our kitchen and I love it. Here's a link to Artigo, we chose the Plansystem ND-NAT. If that kind of flooring interests you, you can most likely find a local distributor or someone who makes a similar product. We also considered stone and mosaic, and all the rest, but as you said the prices are just sky high. I started thinking about a kitchen my father installed in the basement of the house he built (a second kitchen), which he floored with stud rubber flooring. I chose something completely different in style but stuck with the rubber flooring. We like it a lot.

My husband and I just IMed each other with that very sentiment: "Screw the real estate agent." She's driving us batty. Sort of a cross between Judge Judy and Roseanne Roasannadanna. We've got two months till closing and she's pushing us like we've got 2 weeks. I know it's a busy time of year, but she needs to take some deep breaths.

We are going to ask the inspector that stuff. I'm actually quite a talker myself

And now I'm looking at BlueStar ranges. We have to go w/a slide in anyway, which is going to be more expensive with most models...the BlueStar is in line with what we would be paying for the Profile (around $400 more), and I've heard good things. Have to see if there's a local dealer, though...otherwise repairs could be an issue.

If we could move the configuration of the range, we could go with one of the new Bosch models, but they're only freestanding models and this has to fit into the island.

Actually, what's in there now is a drop-in. I'm hoping I can convert the space to a slide in. If not, I'm going to be pretty screwed.

[JennotJenn]

Oh, and rubber flooring actually gives me the same concern that cork does: I have a cat who really enjoys clawing cork and rubber in other, non-flooring forms. I'm afraid she'd tear up the floor! Every pair of rubber flip flops I own has been destroyed by her. I'm afraid anything with any give is going to be demolished.

[Rachel Perlow]

Unless she's a buyer's agent, she's working for the seller. You are paying for the home inspector (right?), talk to him all you want. It sounds to me like you went with the first inspector she recommended (since she seems so familiar with him). Regardless, you are the one paying his bill. You use his report to help you plan home maintanence and improvements. So while you don't need to say "screw" her, you do need to let her know that you know she is working for the sellers. The home inspector works for you and you'll talk to him all you want. Of course, if he's charging you by the hour instead of for the job, you may want to just let him get to work instead of allowing him to talk your ear off.

[JennotJenn]

Unless she's a buyer's agent, she's working for the seller. You are paying for the home inspector (right?), talk to him all you want. It sounds to me like you went with the first inspector she recommended (since she seems so familiar with him). Regardless, you are the one paying his bill. You use his report to help you plan home maintanence and improvements. So while you don't need to say "screw" her, you do need to let her know that you know she is working for the sellers. The home inspector works for you and you'll talk to him all you want. Of course, if he's charging you by the hour instead of for the job, you may want to just let him get to work instead of allowing him to talk your ear off.

She's actually a dual-agent (does every state have dual agency or should I explain it?), but yes, we went with the first guy she suggested. I'm glad to know that we can ask questions.

Edited to say that I didn't mean any snideness in my offer to expain dual agency. I honestly don't know if every state has that or not, or if anyone knows what it means. Not trying to be rude!

Edited May 24, 2004 by JennotJenn (log)

[bleudauvergne]

I hope things will be simple for you, and that the inspector has positive things to say about the possibilities. I've got my fingers crossed for you.

[SKinCA]

I'm hopping in on this fairly late, but I'm hoping to do a kitchen renovation of my own. It would help me if I understood where, geographically speaking, everyone is located.

I enjoy the blessing/curse of living in No. Cal (Silicon Valley) and I'm distressed at how expensive contracting costs are! I can get all the organic vegetables I want, but no one to install flooring!

My kitchen is also too big! I'll be following this saga with interest.

Thanks for posting it.