orange chicken

[mongo_jones]

in a recent thread on the southwest forum i admitted shame-facedly to being a connoisseur of spicy orange chicken. now, suddenly i don't know if there's any cause for shame. however, i do wish to know whether the orange chicken we know in the u.s is largely a chinese-american invention or whether it closely resembles a chinese ancestor.

who else wants to come out of the orange chicken closet?

[mnebergall]

Is this the stuff with the fried orange peel in it? If so, its pretty good, if done properly.

[mongo_jones]

yes--fried orange peel, lots of spicy red chillies, crispily fried chicken. when done well it is great; however, in most malls it is horrible. but either way it may be the chinese dish (if indeed it is chinese and not american) that has penetrated the mainstream american palate the most. restaurants that have nothing to do with chinese food serve orange chicken now--even the ubiquitous kung pao chicken can't make this claim.

[mongo_jones]

aha--i see i have nothing to be ashamed about; not on this score anyway:

http://chinesefood.about.com/library/blrecipe017.htm

[Pan]

Both orange-flavor chicken and orange-flavor beef can be excellent, though they're usually hideously over-breaded and deep-fried to a revolting, stomach-turning oiliness. It's possible that the first place I had really good orange-flavor dishes was the Sichuan restaurant that used to be on the 2nd floor of the block-long building between 109th and 110th Sts. and Broadway, Manhattan, in the late 70s. I haven't had a good rendition of either dish in quite a long time.

[Chris Cognac]

Man I love it, who the hell cares where it came from...as long as its here!...Speaking of Kung Pao...there is a little place behind our police station that makes the absolute best....its so great cause i can leave the back door of the Detective bureau and be there in 2 mins on foot...plus the whole lunch deal is only 4 bucks!....all hail Little Asia

Edited May 12, 2004 by Chris Cognac (log)

[Carolyn Tillie]

I confess, I confess...

I used to have to sneak into Panda Kitchen, that hideous Chinese wanna-be chain, and hide behind the local Target (aren't they ALL in those strip malls?) to consume the brightly-colored bright orbs of gooey goodness.

Now, thank god, Trader Joe's has a frozen version. Now I can indulge in the privacy of my home. The TJs version has the chicken in a bag, where you bake them until crisp, then toss them in the enclosed bag of spicy-sweet sauce. Really quite very good, considering...

I'm so happy I have my support group to help me through these trying times...

[mongo_jones]

the chinese place in the university village food court by usc in los angeles used to have a killer orange chicken (this is about 8 years ago). for my room-mate and i, starving grad students both, and carless in l-a, that food-court was the major eat-out destination. this was not long after the riots and the area had the bombed out feel from which it has still not fully recovered. anyway, it got so that the family that owned the chinese place then (for all i know they still may) treated us like the regulars we were, giving us much larger portions in our combo, and always letting me know if i should wait another 10 minutes for fresh out of the kitchen orange chicken. however, the orange chickens at the foodcourts in both the century city and santa monica malls suck the big one. there's a place here in boulder that also has a pretty good orange chicken (may wah in the basemar center, for any boulder-ites reading), but only if you ask for it extra-spicy.

[Gary Soup]

It undoubtedly has a predecessor in China, though probably nothing as candy-sweet as found in mall food-court Chinese in the US. The pairing of tart fruit with meat, especially fatty meat, is fairly common in western and southern China, and even Shanghai has its jujubes with fatty pork cuts and orange beef cold appetizer. Then, of course, there's the plum sauce that's served with Peking Duck.

[mongo_jones]

yes, a good orange chicken in my opinion is one which doesn't present sweetness as its first or last impression. i also find that the more orange an orange chicken is in color the less i am likely to like it; the best ones seem always to be a dark red, almost maroon, in color. the place in boulder i mentioned serves theirs garnished with sauteed snow-peas. i much prefer green onions.

[Richie111]

the chinese place in the university village food court by usc in los angeles used to have a killer orange chicken (this is about 8 years ago).

Is that the one in the village east of campus? That place rocked. They let you do a "to go" all you can eat deal and let you cram as much food into a styrofoam container as possible. Could feed a small fraternity for days on that.

Consider this my coming out on orange chicken and beef ( I go both ways)

-Richie

[mongo_jones]

if it is the same place it must have been before or after my time--nothing quite so decadent was in place when i ate there.

[Busboy]

What's the difference between Orange Chicken and General Tso's?

Anyway, put me down as a "hell yes" on both fronts.

[skchai]

I think the most plausible story is that Orange Chicken / Beef it was originally an adaptation of Szechuan Tangerine Peel Beef. Then it got the Sino-Americanization treatment: (1) battered before being deep-fried (2) lots more sugar in the sauce (3) lots more cornstarch in the sauce. Which I guess (except for 2) is not that different from the Sino-Indianization treatment or the Sino-Koreanization threatment.

[jo-mel]

I think the most plausible story is that Orange Chicken / Beef it was originally an adaptation of Szechuan Tangerine Peel Beef.  Then it got the Sino-Americanization treatment: (1) battered before being deep-fried (2) lots more sugar in the sauce (3) lots more cornstarch in the sauce.  Which I guess (except for 2) is not that different from the Sino-Indianization treatment or the Sino-Koreanization threatment.

Dittos on that.

Oranges have a looooong and respected history in China and preserved or dried peel finds its way into beef, duck and pork dishes. Bruce Cost said that even if the orange were inedible, the Chinese would probably have grown it just for its peel!! LOL!

It is probably the Western love of sugar that has resulted in the sweet, breaded dish that we have come to know and love.

Skimming thru some of my books on traditional Chinese cooking, the dishes with orange peel have so little sugar that it is almost not a factor in the taste of the dish.

[Gary Soup]

Bruce Cost said that even if the orange were inedible, the Chinese would probably have grown it just for its peel!! LOL!

They would have grown it just for its symbolism.

[fee]

It is probably the Western love of sugar that has resulted in the sweet, breaded dish that we have come to know and love.

Skimming thru some of my books on traditional Chinese cooking, the dishes with orange peel have so little sugar that it is almost not a factor in the taste of the dish.

New to this forum, but I thought I'd jump in on this one.

I agree with the above, and do admit that many dishes in America tend to become "over-sweet" (or "candy sweet," nice turn of phrase by Gary Soup) in the transition from China to the USA.

However, there surely must be some "traditional" Chinese meat dishes that are sweet. I live in Taipei and tonight I had "cha shao fan", which was pretty darned sweet. Not a tourist place, just an NT$ 75 place near YongKang Street.

And last night we had some "jing du pai gu" which were very sweet. I have had some "la zi ji ding" that bordered on sweet (and was certainly spicy), and "jing jiang rou si" is usually sweet-ish.

Now, I'm not saying that these dishes are as teeth-achingly sweet as some of the same dishes served in the States, but I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say about the origins of these "sweet" meat dishes in China.

In my case, perhaps these dishes that I came across have been sweetened up to appeal to Taiwanese palettes, in the same way that in many of the Sichuan places here in Taipei, the use of "hua jiao" is very limited.

And my apologies if my post is off-topic. (Perhaps I should have started a new thread .)

[hzrt8w]

..... i do wish to know whether the orange chicken we know in the u.s is largely a chinese-american invention or whether it closely resembles a chinese ancestor.

Agreed with other posters that "Orange Chicken" seems to be a U.S. adaptation of the Chinese dish ( 陈皮鸡 ) "chun pee ji" (??). Way too sweet and over-battered.

The name 陈皮 "chun pee" literally means "old skin", or dried peel. It doesn't say peel of which fruit but it's well known that it's the peel of tangerines, not oranges. It is ironic that this dish is called orange chicken while it should have been called tangerine chicken. It is further ironic that most Chinese takeouts do not put any dried tangerine peel to make this dish. I think some just squeezes in a bit of orange juice or throw in a bit of orange zests and call it Chinese orange chicken.

[Laksa]

Agreed with other posters that "Orange Chicken" seems to be a U.S. adaptation of the Chinese dish (  陈皮鸡 ) "chun pee ji" (??). 

May I suggest "chen pi ji"? It may be just me, but I don't like to see "pee" in any way associated with food.

However, there surely must be some "traditional" Chinese meat dishes that are sweet. I live in Taipei and tonight I had "cha shao fan", which was pretty darned sweet.

When I think of sweet Chinese food outside of the US, Cantonese "ku lou yook" comes to mind.

As for the theory that Chinese food is sweetened for American palettes, I find it interesting that other foods that can be found in the typical American shopping mall food court don't feature sweetness as prominently. (I'm conveniently ignoring desserts for the purpose of this argument.)

Hamburgers, pizzas, subway sandwiches and tacos/burritos/enchiladas are not sweet. One could argue that the hot dog relish and bbq sauce are sweet, but I see them as condiments that play only a supporting role. What struck me most about American food, when I first arrived here, in general (very general terms), is the overwhelming saltiness.

So it puzzles me why Chinese food should be sweetened, if that is really happening, to appeal to Americans? Maybe adding more salt might work better?

[Jeannie]

However, there surely must be some "traditional" Chinese meat dishes that are sweet. I live in Taipei and tonight I had "cha shao fan", which was pretty darned sweet. Not a tourist place, just an NT$ 75 place near YongKang Street.

And last night we had some "jing du pai gu"  which were very sweet.  I have had some "la zi ji ding" that bordered on sweet (and was certainly spicy), and "jing jiang rou si" is usually sweet-ish.

Now, I'm not saying that these dishes are as teeth-achingly sweet as some of the same dishes served in the States, but I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say about the origins of these "sweet" meat dishes in China.

In my case, perhaps these dishes that I came across have been sweetened up to appeal to Taiwanese palettes, in the same way that in many of the Sichuan places here in Taipei, the use of "hua jiao" is very limited.

And my apologies if my post is off-topic. (Perhaps I should have started a new thread  .)

Taiwanese food is well known for it's sweetness. It's one of the defining characteristics of their food.

Shanghainese cooks has also been accused of putting sugar in everything, which isn't true! although we do use it a bit more than most people. We also put sugar in some vegetable dishes too, for example, stir fried broad beans and stir fried shiitake mushrooms.

Edited July 8, 2004 by Jeannie (log)

[jschyun]

So it puzzles me why Chinese food should be sweetened, if that is really happening, to appeal to Americans? Maybe adding more salt might work better?

I don't get it either. I suspect it's probably less prevalent in a place like Monterey Park, but I'm sure it still happens even there. I'm Korean-Am, and I know that a few Korean restaurants in L.A. and Orange County deliberately make their foods (barbecue marinades, whatever) sweeter. I, my friends and family avoid those places. However, I noticed that the Americans do seem to prefer the sweeter, less...strong(?) stuff and rave about those restaurants.

What I find interesting is that Chinese people seem to prefer the Korean places that Koreans prefer and not the washed out, sweet stuff that most Americans of my acquaintence seem to like. We have lots of Chinese (actually I think mostly Taiwanese) and they seem to know all my favorite haunts.

[Jeannie]

Generally speaking the Chinese palate isn't as fond of sweet things as the Western palate. Ice cream and cakes in China are a lot less sweet. When I eat Western cakes, a lot of the time I have to eat them with a glass of water.

Edited July 8, 2004 by Jeannie (log)

[FoodZealot]

I think orange chicken is one of my favorite foods in the world, regardless of it's pedigree. I have some local favorites, but I still search for the ultimate version of it. If it has Sichuan roots, maybe I should try it at Chungking in Monterey Park?

Since busboy asked about General Tso's chicken, here's one of the eG threads. They appear to be somewhat similar in procedure, but less similar in flavor profile. At least in name, it's not a common menu item at the Chinese restaurants I've been to.

[Gary Soup]

Shanghainese cooks has also been accused of putting sugar in everything, which isn't true!

.... unless they happen to hail from Wuxi. My wife is a Wuxiren, and she adds a bit of sugar to nearly every dish "to balance the salt."

[Dejah]

I'm from Toisan/Guongdong, and have also been taught to balance the salt with a bit of sugar.