Guide Michelin comes to NY

[bloviatrix]

The May 10th issue of New York reports that Michelin is crossing the Atlantic and that their first New York guide will be available in 2006.

French Invasion

[bourdain]

This should be interesting--if only to see the Zagat Family reaction.

[ronnie_suburban]

This should  be interesting--if only  to see the Zagat Family reaction.

Can you say "grabber"? Heh, I knew that you could

=R=

[Louisa Chu]

I was wondering how long it would take for this to make the media. I'm interested to see the New York/American reaction in general. And to see how French rules play on American turf.

[Cpalms]

...if michelin does as poorly with the american version as they do with the Italy guide it will be just as useless as zagat's NY guide is....

[docsconz]

The French restaurants will likely do well relative to anyone else. Then again, we may be in for a surprise. It will be interesting to see how they handle restaurants like Craft, gramercy Tavern and Blue Hill.

[Pan]

I was wondering how long it would take for this to make the media.

You mean you knew about this and didn't tell us? (Hmmm...no pouting emoticon. )

I'm surprised by this move by Michelin, but it'll be interesting for discussions in this forum.

[oakapple]

This should be interesting--if only to see the Zagat Family reaction.

In Europe, to gain even one star is quite an accomplishment. Zagat, on the other hand, rates hundreds of restaurants, from ADNY to Gray's Papaya. To compare Michelin and Zagat is really apples to oranges---they are doing different things, for very different audiences.

[cbarre02]

Do you think it is going to as effective as the mobile guide? HA!

[godito]

I like the idea, except that they seem the be shorthanded in Europe. Will that change in the US? I just hope they follow the same standards as they do in France. Maybe it would a good thing for US gastronomy..., then again, maybe not

[bloviatrix]

I can't help but wonder where they will draw their inspectors from and how many inspectors they will assign.

[Fat Guy]

Zagat will be a competitor only in terms of short-term book sales. The more significant competition -- the mind-share competition -- is the New York Times.

Right now, when New Yorkers who know anything about fine dining speak of New York restaurants, they speak in terms of New York Times stars. They are the New York equivalents of Michelin stars in France, though of course the scales and systems are quite different.

The question is, will Michelin be able to get its stars recognized by the relevant upper-end of the consumer population, or will the Michelin stars for New York just be a curiosity like the Gayot ratings. In the long run -- and one assumes Michelin will put enough money behind this effort to build it over a period of years -- that's what will support book sales.

My guess is that it will be a total flop, primarily because the Michelin system is ill-suited to a polyglot dining culture. It is has barely even been sustainable, from a consistency standpoint, since the Nouvelle Cuisine era. But it has tremendous inertia in France. It has virtually no inertia here. Americans know about Michelin stars in Europe, but what percentage of Americans who have been to Michelin-starred restaurants in France have actually bothered to buy a Michelin guide, or have ever even seen the pages of one?

Michelin's hiding-its-cards, tight-lipped approach will also, I think, be unappealing to Americans, who are going to want a bit more language.

And of course there will be the problem of rejectionism, because many Americans will likely say "Who the hell are these Michelin people to rate our restaurants?"

[marcus]

I believe that it will be a great success. Knowledgeable New Yorkers are hungering for a credible guide other than the lightweight Zagat and the idiosychratic NY Times. Gayot is beneath mention, depending on second tier reviewers and little process. I also think that the idea that the guide is French based will be a plus, the French have great credibility with food and the term imported has always been a positive selling point in NY. It should also be noted that Michelin has always recruited its reviewers from nationals in the country of the specific guide, although there is undoubtedly a significant level of common methodology across countries. I also see their guide remaining very viable and credible in France, and I think that its continuing success goes well beyond inertia. I continue to personally find it very useful.

The key point where I agree with Fat Guy is that Michelin has never adapted well to a polyglot dining culture. That is their challenge in developing this guide. The fact that it will not be published until 2006 indicates that they recognize this problem and want to take some time to work it out.

[Fat Guy]

Knowledgeable New Yorkers are hungering for a credible guide other than the lightweight Zagat and the idiosychratic NY Times.

In my opinion knowledgeable New Yorkers are looking for exactly what both Michelin and Zagat have never and will never offer: reviews with substance. After all, knowledgeable New Yorkers don't need guidebooks at all. They use Zagat as a phone book, not for serious recommendations, and they don't need Michelin to tell them the names of the top tier restaurants in New York. That's just common knowledge.

Gayot is beneath mention, depending on second tier reviewers and little process.

If the recent revelations about Michelin are true, then Michelin hardly has a claim to rigorous process.

I also think that the idea that the guide is French based will be a plus, the French have great credibility with food and the term imported has always been a positive selling point in NY.

Ducasse would probably disagree with you, as would all the French or even French-appearing chefs who struggled for business post-9/11. And those are restaurant situations, where the French have the most credibility. It doesn't seem clear at all to me that the French have much guidebook credibility, which I see as somthing separate from culinary credibility. Cooking French food is one thing; telling New Yorkers which American, Italian, Chinese, and Mexican restaurants are the best is quite another.

It should also be noted that Michelin has always recruited its reviewers from nationals in the country of the specific guide, although there is undoubtedly a significant level of common methodology across countries.  I also see their guide remaining very viable and credible in France, and I think that its continuing success goes well beyond inertia.  I continue to personally find it very useful.

In what way do you find it useful, though? Does what you find useful about the Michelin guide in France translate to New York City?

[marcus]

I think that Michelin, whatever its warts and shortcomes, remains the gold standard for rating restaurants, particularly French restaurants. Whether this translates successfully to NY remains to be seen. No one else comes close in terms of time, effort and investment. I do agree with Cpalms that their Italian guide is poor, and as I mentioned previously, I agree with FG that solving the polyglot restaurant challenge is the key issue.

We need to recognize that the guide will have 2 audiences, travelers and locals.

For travelers the benefit is clear. I think that locals, such as ourselves, will also find it useful. Yes, we know what the leading restaurants are, but a Michelin rating will provide additional perspective. In addition, there are bound to be surprises, restaurants that we've never tried for whatever reason will get a Michelin star and become more interesting.

AD/NY was poorly planned and inroduced and having problems in NY long before 9/11. These problems were of its own making and not because it is French. Daniel, Jean-Georges, Le Bernardin are all French, as NY's best restaurants have always been, and they are beloved by New Yorkers. I also don't think that there will be lingering anti-French after-effects of 9/11. Look at the giant store that Louis Vuitton has just opened on 5th Avenue.

[Fat Guy]

The hostility against Ducasse had nothing to do with 9/11. It had to do with a French big-shot trying to capture the top of our market with a foreign restaurant. Negative reviews can perhaps be explained by disappointment with food, but the hostility and in some cases outright hate in the early articles about Ducasse can't possibly have been driven by culinary concerns.

Alan Abelson in Barron's:

Alain Ducasse is not a household name. At least, thank heavens, not in our household.

Among the gourmerati, however, M. Ducasse is not just renowned, he's also revered as Super Chef, a kind of rich man's Colonel Sanders or Beefsteak Charlie. Symptomatic of his exquisitely refined taste is that he chose to be born in France (he'd never have come close to earning even half a star from Michelin if he'd first seen the light of day in Liverpool, say, or, wurst yet, Frankfurt).

M. Ducasse's almost missionary zeal in pursuit of his metier has impelled him not only to satisfy the uncompromising appetites of his countrymen but also to seek, via a string of haute cuisine outposts, to educate the crude palates of the barbarians from Tokyo to the New World.

His latest such endeavor at culinary colonizing is a noble effort to shoulder the white bread burden: the launching of a restaurant smack dab in the center of the world capital of everything, New York City. It bears the great one's name and indisputably is his piece de resistance.

Steve Cuozzo in the Post:

"ADNY," as it's stamped with Trumpean pomposity on plates and silverware, is less about "the world's greatest French chef" than about franchise sprawl. Globe-girdling Alain Ducasse means to tap Manhattan's cash gusher while it lasts, and ADNY is the mediocre, often comical result.

Rebecca Ascher-Walsh in Fortune:

Dante, have we got news for you: There's now a new circle of hell. At Alain Ducasse at the Essex House, you'll see grownups spitting food into napkins, you'll bite into bread so burned you'd think Freddy Krueger were running the kitchen, and you'll experience the thrill of frogs legs and chicken wings fighting their way down your gullet like a kung fu master. As one of my companions muttered into his practically raw sole, which followed a lobster goop that tasted like Play-Doh and preceded a fresh-from-the-fridge slab of Camembert, "If I weren't here, I wouldn't believe it." The good news: The restaurant is so bad--from the choose-your- weapon presentation of knives to the artwork that looks like an elephant has thrown up tubas--you'll be able to dine out on the story for years. Assuming, that is, that you ever want to dine out again.

How easily this all would translate to Michelin.

Daniel, Jean-Georges, and Le Bernardin are French restaurants owned by Americans. Daniel and Jean-Georges are 100% home grown, and Le Bernardin has fully assimilated. As Jerry Shriver perceptively wrote in USA Today regarding ADNY, "New Yorkers are open to out-of-town talent - the waiting list here is said to be three months long - but you still have to earn your accolades on the home field." As Erica Marcus reported in Newsday, "Colman Andrews, editor of Saveur magazine, concurred that New Yorkers were no doubt offended by Ducasse's 'hubris,' and he pointed out that although both Daniel Boulud of Daniel and Jean-Georges Vongerichten are French, they started out in New York as relatively obscure chefs who paid their dues and rose to prominence here, whereas Ducasse is considered an interloper." Yet even the most beloved New York French restaurants noticed drops in business after 9/11. Anti-French sentiment is running very high in the US right now. Louis Vuitton is already part of our culture, but I think it will be much harder to introduce new French concepts to the US going forward.

According to the president of IC&A Inc, a business that imports only French products, demand for these products fell in the vicinity of 40% to 50% from February 2003 levels. The Movement of French Enterprises (Medef) has reported that "French enterprises are suffering today from the differences that have arisen among states over the Iraqi question."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/encyclopedia/a...e_united_states

[marcus]

This discussion is becoming very hypothetical and I don't see a conclusive resolution. One can argue, but my bottom line opinion is that Michelin is a well respected priemium brand in the US and they have paid their dues. Their tires are well known, and their guidebooks have been available in most every bookshop forever. There was no outcry when they expanded the green guide to various US locations many years ago, I'm sure that most people saw it as a natural evolution and welcomed an additional option. I think that the red guide, while it will be more controversial, will be welcomed as well. That people are already familiar with its appearance and format will also help.

I believef that the problems that Alain Ducasse had in breaking into the NY restaurant market were unique and shouldn't be universalized. They related to his particular reputation and to mistakes that he made in introducing the restaurant. I agree that one can argue that he wasn't treated fairly, but I wouldn't personally extend that to all French chefs and all French businesses. Ducasse is controversial in France as well, and you can also find Ducasse haters over there, however you may disagree with the merits.

Time will tell as to the anti-French aftereffects of 9/11, but my guess is that they will be short lived, particularly in NY.

[Fat Guy]

The other thing is, how will New Yorkers handle the truth? I mean, almost every current NYT four-star restaurant should get one or two Michelin stars, and most of the three-stars should get one or none. Maybe, just maybe, Per Se and ADNY can hold legitimate three-star ratings even in light of full-on Michelin inspection, but they're the only restaurants in town that even have a chance. So Michelin will have to choose between grade-inflation and insulting the local population.

I can see the charges of arrogance mounting quickly. The green guides are not comparable: they offer actual content. The red guides simply ask us to rely on Michelin's expertise.

And who will Michelin use as its inspectors? The same geniuses who pick the Beard Awards? Where's the labor pool for this?

I'll note, as well, that there are plenty of Michelin-haters in France.

What I really fail to see, though -- and this is less speculation than the rest of the points -- is what Michelin has to offer in this market. In other words, assuming the most favorable circumstances, assuming the same level of quality Michelin offers in France (a longshot, since it has failed to offer that level of quality in any country other than France -- but let's assume it for now), what would make a New Yorker want to buy the Michelin guide for New York?

[marcus]

To continue the dialog:

I've heard many New Yorkers say things like a one star in France is better than any restaurant in NY. That's actually an overstatement, but does indicate an understanding and even appreciation that Michelin's stars represent a more stringent rating than NYT stars. My own view of New Yorkers is that they are realists, and that they will welcome and won't be put off by the truth. If this were Texas it would be a different matter.

With regard to who the inspectors will be, I don't think that they will need a huge number, most likely fewer than 10. The job will be desireable, so with some careful selection, testing, and training, finding inspectors should not be insurmountable. The training in the Michelin methodology will make the key difference, versus the cacaphony of people who have opinions about restaurants, and political agendas as well.

With regard to who will buy it, I think that Zagat has already demonstrated that there is a market for NY restaurant guides. Michelin has a similar but superior product, and should be able to tap into and expand that market. A large number will be sold to visitors, whose motivation to purchase is clear. The others will be sold to New Yorkers, many knowledgeable, but still obsessed with finding that extra bit of information. I consider myself to be in that group. I would anticipate that I will buy it.

[bilrus]

And who will Michelin use as its inspectors?

This is a pretty basic question, but who do they use as inspectors in Europe?

[oakapple]

In my view, a rating system based on stars is useful only if there's a reasonable number of restaurants in each category. Let me give a concrete example:

Last year, I spent the better part of five months working in Edinburgh, Scotland. This is a major city, and it has just two restaurants with one Michelin star, and none with two or three. Now, I am not saying that Michelin has mis-rated the city of Edinburgh; by its historical standards, it may be that no other restaurants in the city deserve as much as a single star. But when a major city has just two rated restaurants, the guide isn't of much use if you're planning a week's visit, much less an extended stay.

I entirely agree with Fat Guy about where the NYC restaurant population will rank, if Michelin follows its historical standards. The current NYTimes one- & two-stars, and some of the three-stars, will get zero. With so few of the city's restaurants carrying any rating, most visitors won't find the guide all that helpful, and for natives there is already an abundance of information.

[Fat Guy]

The thing is, there aren't any restaurants like Daniel in France. Daniel serves French food but it's an American restaurant. The category of high-volume high-energy fine-dining doesn't really exist in France, other than in the places that are direct responses to American restaurants (Spoon/Mix/Atelier). New York is a different universe. So Michelin's stars, in a sense, miss the point: New York simply hasn't oriented its market towards the pursuit of Michelin stars; it has oriented itself in a uniquely American direction. Sure, places like ADNY and Per Se are super-luxe and slow-paced, like the three-stars in France, but they're not really part of the New York scene. The New York Times system, though it has been diluted by a succession of critics who have been sloppy with their stars, is the better way to represent New York restuarants on their own terms. It's a home-grown system appropriate to this market, understood by people in this market.

I'm also wondering what "the Michelin methodology" is. As far as I can tell, they don't visit the restaurants very often, so they're mostly relying on an impressionistic system. It's not like Consumer Reports, where they have an actual documented rigorous system of testing and they produce detailed reports to back up their conclusions. It's much more of an electing-the-Pope system, where a bunch of Cardinals sit in a room and hold secret discussions until the smoke signal goes up.

[herbacidal]

Sure, places like ADNY and Per Se are super-luxe and slow-paced, like the three-stars in France, but they're not really part of the New York scene.

Please elaborate.

I would expect them to be just the higher end part of the New York scene.

[marcus]

I'm also wondering what "the Michelin methodology" is. As far as I can tell, they don't visit the restaurants very often, so they're mostly relying on an impressionistic system. It's not like Consumer Reports, where they have an actual documented rigorous system of testing and they produce detailed reports to back up their conclusions. It's much more of an electing-the-Pope system, where a bunch of Cardinals sit in a room and hold secret discussions until the smoke signal goes up.

Michelin has always maintained a high degree of secrecy, so it's difficult to really know. I believe that they consider their methodology to be a trade secret. Reading between the lines over the years, I've come to believe that they hire highly qualified inspectors, put them through an apprenticeship, and that they have scoring sheets, much as Consumer reports does, to insure a level of common criteria and consistency. I believe that they also often visit restaurants in pairs, and this helps the various inspectors to learn to look at things in largely the same ways.

How they get to a final judgment, I'm not sure, and there have been many rumors. However, having a number of skilled inspectors who work together with a common methodology seems to me to be by far the most rigorous approach in the industry. I also think that the results, particularly in France, have been quite credible and largely speak for themselves. I haven't actually counted, but my impression is that among eGullet posters that visit France regularly and frequent the starred restaurants, there has been a strong consensus that Michelin has yielded overall the best ratings.

[Pan]

It's my opinion that anyone who would count Michelin arrogant for giving out fewer stars than the New York Times simply doesn't understand the Michelin star system.

Also, to oakapple: How many restaurants are listed in the Michelin Guide Rouge for Edinburgh? Because a mere listing without a star - with the possible exception of some hotel restaurants - is a recommendation from Michelin. I've sometimes found that restaurants that were merely listed without stars in Michelin guides were quite good.