Craft Bar

[Steve Plotnicki]

"I confess I might be minorly annoyed if a restaurant said, "Come visit our new and radically different establishment" and then did nothing whatever to distinguish itself from any other restaurant. But come on, Craft has done something. A lot of things. The menu structure is just one thing, the one I'm dwelling on here. But it is also as I have mentioned before a different way of presenting food, a different focus in cooking technique, and a lot of other different stuff. "

Shaw - No you have it wrong. I am not asking Craft to uninvent itself, I'm claiming they haven't invented anything, but act like they do. I don't think they have done any of those things you said in that quote. If you pare away what you describe as new and different, you have the same old food they have everywhere else. I mean where is the revolution you are describing? My seared Loup de Mer atop stewed artichokes and tomatoes was good, but could have been had in hundreds of restaurants. There's not a single signature that I can associate with Craft when it comes to cooking style or technique.

You know if you are someone who promotes opera, and you advertise a new way of performing La Boheme, you would probably attract flies to your honey. But if when you got to the opera house, it turned out that what they meant was that you had to stand on your head during the performence, aside from their needing to dispense Tylenol after the performence, they really haven't come up with a new way of performing it, they have suggested a new way of listening to it.

The difference between the two is not a small distinction. I find that at Craft, they have not developed any new or earthshattering cooking techniques. Nor have they figured out unusual pairings of food, or have they incorporated non-traditional ingredients into the house style. So I don't understand where you come off saying they have done anything new? But what they have done though the way they list the food and then serve it (and charge for it too by the way,) they have changed  the form of the meal. I have no objection to their doing that, if it enhanced the meal in any way and as I've said a million times, I think it detracts from it.

Look I understand why this happened. TC had to come up with a concept that was as good as GT, but radically different. How else could you get 3 stars in the Times? But if what was offered to the public was simply the food, and the stylistic components of menu construction and serving style were stripped away and all you were left with was evaluating the food, and the conclusion was it was a well-done, NY bistro, it would have trouble getting that all important third star. So I get the need for the bells and whistles.

But I have to say I am disheartened by it to some extent. It would be nice for a place to live on their food preperation alone (providing all other services were up to standard,) and it would be great if the NY food press would recognize such an acheivement which they probably wouldn't. But having just come from my meal at Arpege, a place where they have radically changed things, nothing about how they list the meal or serve the meal is involved in how Passard makes his statement. His statement is limited to his craft, what cooking utensils he uses, how he approaches each ingredient and pairs them, and what order he serves the dishes in. In otherwords, the substance of the meal, not the form of it.

[Fat Guy]

The difference is, when a thousand people go to an operatic performance they all sit and watch the exact same opera, whereas if they all go to a reastaurant they will all have different meals unless it's one of those throwback restaurants in France where everybody eats the same meal. But typically a restaurant customer will control a significant number of the parameters of a meal through something called ordering. To order fish versus meat is not the equivalent of watching an opera seated versus standing on your head. And it is even more significant if a restaurant offers a method of ordering that lies outside the standard range of what people normally expect. What Craft does is tantamount to offering an audience not only a choice of operas to view on any given evening, but also the ability to pick and choose favorite arias to be performed.

Now, as to the form of dining versus the substance thereof: You seem to be defining physical ingredients as substance and all else as form. This distinction does not hold up. Is the choice to grill or roast a steak a question of form or substance? Is the choice of a sauce for that steak form or substance? Is the choice of vegetable garnishes for that steak form or substance? Oh, wait a second, did you say substance to that last one? I thought you might have.

I do not think a menu designed to allow ordering five examples of mushooms is a form-only proposition. It is a fundamental statement about food. And as I have said before so are several other elements of the Craft approach.

Now, you've said Craft contributes no new cooking techniques. I'm not sure who does, and surely that is not the measure of the greatness of a restaurant. But Craft does represent a minimalist approach to cooking that is not present at any other restaurant in New York as far as I know. I have heard you say in various ways that you could get the same dish you got at Craft at a dozen restaurants, a hundred restaurants, or any bistro. This is complete and utter nonsense. And were it true to some extent, it could be said of most dishes at most restaurants, even the very best restaurants.

Gramercy Tavern holds three stars, and it is a high-volume place. I think if Colicchio had opened a slightly higher-end, smaller restaurant with more emphasis on luxury ingredients he could have had a serious four star contender. His choice to pursue the Craft concept was not a plot to get three stars; it was a high-risk gamble. I assure you nobody knew how many stars the restaurant would get until William Grimes himself decided. I think Colicchio breathed a sigh of relief when it became apparent that Grimes had been able to identify and recognize what was going on at Craft. I doubt he would have fared so well had you been the reviewer for the Times at that moment in history.

What I think your objection to Craft boils down to is that you don't like restaurants to explain themselves. You like them to speak for themselves. And I have agreed with you time and again that it is annoying to have Craft explain itself so much. I also agree that Craft could explain itself somewhat less without a customer of average intelligence losing track of what's going on. But I see no way for Craft to escape explanation altogether, especially since this is New York and not Paris.

At Papillon, avant garde chef Paul Liebrandt offers tasting menus where, among other things, customers are blindfolded while eating one course. Now if you want to argue that represents form over substance, I think we might be able to share some common ground for argument though I would still disagree with you in the end.

In closing, I would just like to say that Arpege sucks.

[Jinmyo]

I have never eaten at Craft or CraftBar and hesitate to drift between the Two Steves in titanic struggle.

Nonetheless, hear my yowp.

I am interested in the point about the five kinds of mushrooms and choosing arias etc. I don`t go to concerts because I much prefer the deviltry I can get up to with recordings. I will often choose five different versions of a work, for example the 2nd movement of Bruckner`s 9th, load up the CD player, and listen to one after the other. This is my idea of fun. I would appreciate being able to do the same thing in a culinary setting. Of course I run my own little taste tests of shoyu, of olive oil, of a range of similiar cheeses. But that`s nothing compared to the ease of being able to sit down and have five different kinds of mushrooms on five different plates brought at once.

[Rachel Perlow]

Inspired to see if Craft has a website, I did a google search for "Craft restaurant Colicchio." Many interesting links came up, but no actual restaurant home page. On a whim I tried craft.com, not it. Then craftrestaurant.com, that worked. Interesting multimedia page explaining the restaurant concept. However, I was curious why it didn't come up in my search.

The answer? There is a picture of Colicchio (from 10-20 years ago?), but no mention of his name. The text is written in the first person, lots of "I" and "my," but no reference to who the person is! Not even a name under the picture of him with a lot more hair than the pic of him here in the event description for a James Beard dinner in Nov 2001. Anyway, it is just assumed that the reader knows who he is!

Is this the height of arrogance or just part of the ambiance he wishes to create?

  picture from Nov 2001 James Beard Dinner description           

                        vs. Craft website pic                          

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steve - First, my opera example was an opera with two thousand people. Sorry but I couldn't resist saying that because that's the kind of dopey answer people give on the Internet all of the time:).

Look, a different way of ordering IS FORM. For it to be substance, it would have to be about how the food is prepared. How it is served could possibly mean something, but only if it has an impact on how the food tastes. Or, and this is your opening, if it enhances the dining experience to the extent that it has a material change in the quality of the dining experience.

Now I understand that it does for you. But as you can see, it doesn't for a number of us. But I take the debate to the next step and I say, let's forget about that point for a moment. Is the food there any different in the way it is prepared or tastes? To me that's the true test.

And if that isn't enough for you, Arpege is better than sushi.

[Fat Guy]

"Is the food there any different in the way it is prepared or tastes? To me that's the true test."

That's a test that can't be passed. Because even if I said, "Yes, Craft serves the best shiitake mushrooms and they are prepared in a way that Craft alone among all restaurants on the planet prepares them," you would just say, "Fine, but I still don't want to have to order them separately."

Now let's get back to this point about "different." That's sort of an amorphous concept, since differentiation can occur on so many levels. But I'd still have to answer yes. Several items I've eaten at Craft have been revelatory for me, which I can't say about very many things at very many restaurants. I think I mentioned before that I redefined my views of how steak should be cooked after sampling the Craft porterhouse. In other cases, I've said to myself, self, this is the best example of vegetable X you've had and it's great to know it can be had this well in America. And the simplicity of those preparations helps to identify such distinctions. But do you really care about this point? I mean, doesn't it all get back to the part of the argument you're trying to skip over?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steve - If Craft served shitake mushrooms in a way that was so new, and so original, and they tasted like nothing you ever had before, they wouldn't have had to come up with the gimmicky mission statement. For the food to match the mission statement, they would have had to break new barriers.  But despite the fact that the food tastes delicious, they haven't.  As with everything else, the taste is the thing (there goes Shakepere again. ) And how they have deconstructed listing the food and ordering your meal is a non-sequiter to the mission statement. As for revelatory, the scallop I had at Arpege was revelatory, the food at Craft is very good, but not revelatory.

You know I am perfectly prepared to say that what they serve there is better than what they serve elsewhere. But it's not. There are other places that serve the exact same thing. Do they have the exact same shitake mushrooms that they get? Maybe not. But I do not see the difference in quality to be material enough for it to make me say it is  better than other places.

[Bux]

On the basis of meal when it was two stars, a trusted report of another meal a few years ago by a companion at our earlier dinner and what's been posted here, it's obvious that Arpege is a sgnificant restaurant and Passard a significant chef of high order. Case closed on that.

Bingo

Where's the prize money. Oh, I see you are going to offer lesson tips on "a way for me to learn how to use the restaurant." As they say, you get what you pay for. I'm not sure you win this argument, but you make some breakthrough point and I get to say I've gained some insight from a thread and thus separate myself from the pitbulls of the site.

However, when you

also agree that Craft could explain itself somewhat less without a customer of average intelligence losing track of what's going on.

I begin to wonder if Craft has explained itself or is necessarily aware of what it can be.

[Wilfrid]

I have completely got the opposing Shaw and Plotnicki views on Craft, and I have agreed from the first time I went that they should drop a lot of the gimmicks.

What continues to puzzle me is the view that the food is pretty much average and what you could get in a load of other restaurants?  I am not looking for a long list, but what other non-three star, "bistro"-ish restaurants are serving food of this quality in Manhattan.  Especially the sensational charcuterie?  I want to patronize them!

[Fat Guy]

There are no such restaurants; Plotnicki's clearly mad.

[Steve Plotnicki]

"but what other non-three star, "bistro"-ish restaurants are serving food of this quality in Manhattan.  Especially the sensational charcuterie?  I want to patronize them! "

Wilfrid - Charcuterie isn't a 3 star item, it's a 1 star item, possibly a 2 star if you have the fanciest of fancy Charcuterie and I don't even know what that is. I mean if we went to Bobosse in Les Halles in Lyon, or what's the other famous one there, Speck? If we took their greatest charcuterie, or we went to Bologna to that famous Salumeria that Mario Batalli goes to, that is most likely better than what they serve at Craft. But even their stuff is at a 1 star level. And you know that's fine with me. I love eating in bistros and tratorrias. But let's keep what they do in perspective to what they serve. And, a charcuterie or mushroom platter is the same whether you list all the items seperately and offer them in individual portions, or the menu says "Mushroom Platter," and you have to ask the waiter what mushroom are in it. Like it wouldn't be obvious anyway.

Anyway I have to go because I'm sending Shaw a copy of "The Upside Down Seargent Pepper."

[Wilfrid]

There are no such restaurants; Plotnicki's clearly mad.

I am beginning to worry too.  I think we all know what charcuterie is.  Why is it one star?  The terrines and sausages coming out of the Craft and Craftbar kitchens are amazing demonstrations of skill and good taste.

And we´re still waiting to hear where else we should go for cooking of this standard... ???

[Fat Guy]

Plotnicki, you selfish bastard, stop keeping all the Craft-quality bistros to yourself. Jeez.

[Christopher]

If there truly is no such thing as bad press then craft/craft bar is doing quite well by egullet.

I promised myself I wouldn't post here because I am clearly less than objective but I think I have something to add.

I think it is important to remember that craft/craftbar is a new restaurant. Yes it'll be open a year this March and it has three stars but I can tell you that the current GT you've all come to know does not resemble the GT of July 11 1995. In fact  Shaw's initital reveiw of GT included the line (and I'm paraphrasing) "At first I thought Meyer had erred in hiring Chef Colicchio." A position Shaw later revised. So, restaurants and chefs grow and change and THEY GET BETTER. As does our service :)

In terms of how craft/cb has marketed itself and how the waiters behave, let's go back to the opening of GT. Does anybody else remember the NYMAGAZINE article the week before we opened with the headline THE NEXT GREAT RESTAURANT? with four gold stars underneath? That herald was a publicity nightmare and both our service and food were under constant attack. And the number of people screaming about that magazine piece (including NYM's own Gael Greene) grew by the minute. (We were given two stars by the NYTIMES) I wager that if I could spirit you all back in time to the first 12 months of GT you would experience the same things you see at craft. Including obsequious waiters thinking that they are, as the article said:

"Reinventing 4 star luxury dining. So craft will continue to refine, improve, and get better. If you don't like it now, come back in 3 years.

To specific points:

Sure, if you don't taste the difference between the ingriedinets at craft vs some other less expensive place then don't go. Shaw has made this same point with wine. The higher in price you go the more difficult it is to distinguish differences. I happen to drink an inordinate amout of Red Burgundy. I do taste village, vineyard, producer and cru differences. That may not be true in another region where I'd be just as happy with a village wine. (although none leap to mind!) If what's happening at craft is lost on your palate there is nothing wrong with either craft or your tastebuds.

Yvonne: Label for Label, vintage for vintage, Matthew's wines at craft are more than competitive with any other restaurant save for perhaps USC in the Italian category. His percentages are nowhere near as high as others.

Wilfrid: The only trouble I encountered with tableside de-boneing is that if a great number of people go for the Dover Sole, for example, the time involved lets someones fish go cold. Either the 1st or last.

Rachel: The website picture is circa 1998.

All this being said I, not surprisingly, adore craft. It lets me eat Tom's food without having to go to the office as 'twere.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Wilfrid-If you don't realize why charcuterie is a 1 star, and not 3 star item, then you'll never understand why Syrian food isn't as good as French food.  :)  :)  :) . Oh, that felt great  :p  :p  :p .

The problem with charcuterie is that technically, Oscar Meyer Bologney is charcuterie. But there is no Oscar Meyer equivelent of Sauteed Foie Gras atop Stewed Lentils. And the difference is, it doesn't take anywhere as much specialized skill to make charcuterie as it does to make the FG lentil dish. And stars are in reality a recognition of the effort that goes into making the food. I mean my Gallician grandmother made some mean rugelach and a light as air sponge cake, but it was peasant food, not chocolate fondant.

Chris-I agree with you about GT. The first time I ate there I hated it. Now I love it, except on the odd occasion when it is off. But I do not know if you can equate the problems GT had on opening with the nits we are picking at Craft. And I am sure that Craft will improve, both as to food and as to service. But I would bet that they dispense with much of the fussy stuff I am complaining about. And when that happens, I am going to make Fat Guy stand on his head for at least one act of La Boheme at the Met. He's going to have to wear tails so he won't be able to see.

[Fat Guy]

I always wear tails anyway. And nothing else.

[cookperrync]

To all...

I am sorry about the delay in responding (as a side note I would recommend lunch at Bacchanalia in Atlanta for any would-be travelers to the South).

I see now that I have been away for a few days that nothing has really changed in the debate.  Reading through the posts I think that maybe some of the overall focus of the debate has dissipated.  What is the heart of the matter?  There are some of us (the correct ones   ) that find Craft to be dull, uninspiring, and lacking soul, while others find it to be the best restaurant of the moment, year, century.  I just don't believe that Craft is all that different as Steve Shaw believes it to be.  Collichio's cooking is Collichio's cooking.  Braised, Roasted, Bacon and All.  His food is good...I can't deny that.  I would argue that Craft and GT are not that different in food preparation.  Collichio uses the same purveyors and cooks with the same technique.  The only difference is that at Craft all the seperate ingredients placed on different plates.  Craft is a marketing ploy - you can get twice the meal at GT for half the price.  I can't afford to eat food that is a concept (they really don't pay cooks very well for how hard we work for the critics).  When I go out to eat I want something that is not a mental conjecture of how well lavender, eel, chocolate, and watermelon go together.  I want something that satisfies on a much more basic level.  I thought that Craft would provide that.  It is more in line mentally with what I like.  Craft, however, fell flat.  I don't know that I can adequately explain it.  But I will argue that Craft is a concept and one that is not terribly ground breaking.  How "new" is ordering totally a la carte?  He has simply taken his style and combined it with the concept of a 100 year old steakhouse and decided to charge you a lot of money for some very basic food.  

Perry

[yvonne johnson]

Christopher: Thanks for your comments. I’m not sure I’ve made my point clearly enough, and now that the upgrade deleted the prices in my earlier post, let me restate my point. If I understand your post correctly, the mark-up on wines at CBar is less than at comparable restaurants. That is good, but does not deal with my quibble (and overall I liked CB a lot, so much so we’re taking friends there this w/end).

My complaint is that the costs of the wines at CB are out of proportion relative to the costs of the main courses. Maybe prices will go up here after the opening period, but at present mains cost around $15. And there isn’t a cabernet sauvignon for under $57. In addition, often when I eat a lot of offal (as I did at CB the other night), I like a cognac as a digestif. The cheapest was $17. That cost more than my main course!

Steve Plotnicki: I don’t follow the argument that “charcuterie is a 1 star, and not 3 star item”. The first prong of your argument is that there are lousy “charcuterie”on the market, therefore all charcuterie is tarred with this brush. Because Cadbury’s make instant potatoes, all potato dishes are 1 star items?

The second prong of your argument is related to the specialized skills needed to cook a dish and you say making charcuterie requires fewer skills than Sautéed Foie Gras atop Stewed Lentils.  But making sautéed foie is very easy. Or is it the lentils that’s hard  Paralleling your argument on the superiority of French cuisine over all others, is the point that the more expensive a dish is the more deserving it is? I'm puzzled.

[yvonne johnson]

Christopher: Thanks for your comments. I’m not sure I’ve made my point clearly enough, and now that the upgrade deleted the prices in my earlier post, let me restate my point. If I understand your post correctly, the mark-up on wines at CBar is less than at comparable restaurants. That is good, but does not deal with my quibble (and overall I liked CB a lot, so much so we’re taking friends there this w/end).

My complaint is that the costs of the wines at CB are out of proportion relative to the costs of the main courses. Maybe prices will go up here after the opening period, but at present mains cost around $15. And there isn’t a cabernet sauvignon for under $57. In addition, often when I eat a lot of offal (as I did at CB the other night), I like a cognac as a digestif. The cheapest was $17. That cost more than my main course!

Steve Plotnicki: I don’t follow the argument that “charcuterie is a 1 star, and not 3 star item”. The first prong of your argument is that there are lousy “charcuterie”on the market, therefore all charcuterie is tarred with this brush. Because Cadbury’s make instant potatoes, all potato dishes are 1 star items?

The second prong of your argument is related to the specialized skills needed to cook a dish and you say making charcuterie requires fewer skills than Sautéed Foie Gras atop Stewed Lentils.  But making sautéed foie is very easy. Or is it the lentils that’s hard  Paralleling your argument on the superiority of French cuisine over all others, is the point that the more expensive a dish is the more deserving it is? I'm puzzled.

[Wilfrid]

Wilfrid: The only trouble I encountered with tableside de-boneing...

I think that was Mr Plotnicki who wanted the de-boning done.  I was the one complaining about the cold plates

Speaking of Mr Plotnicki, I will not be lured into listing charcuterie creations by Escoffier, Point and their ilk and arguing about how many stars they should get.  Just waiting to read your list of bistros!  Yeah, here goes:        

[cookperrync]

I find that when I dine out with my cook/chef friends, they have a totally different standard for judging food than normal people. Do you think this might be the case with you? I mean, when you dine out, you're interested in inventiveness. You're looking for ideas, right? Craft sort of deprives you of that, or at least appears to. Am I at all on to something? I guess what I'm asking is, do you think your perspective as a culinary professional affects your perception of Craft and if so how?

I think that I do have a bit of a different view when dining out.  I am looking at the entire restaurant as a machine.  How does it all work together...the service, the wine, the food, the lighting, etc.  I think about what the restaurant is trying to do and what it actually does.  I think that is the root of most of my dissapointment in Craft.  In their mission and their attitude you are supposed feel that they have reinvented the restaurant.  They just don't follow through from their mission-nothing is new.

 

I don't feel that Craft robs me of inventiveness - I understand what you are getting at but don't agree with the implications.  You are suggesting that there is nothing new, inventive, creative, or exciting about Craft (almost an admission on your part that Craft is dull).  As a culinary professional I respect Craft because in my humble opinion the food is prepared with skill.  I just feel that there is a failure to complete what they have started.  There is some  beauty in a simple sauteed fish, but beauty shouldn't come at such a high price and with a "holier than though" attitude.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Cookperrync-You sage you. What I find even more mind-boggling about Craft is that although they are serving you pretty basic food there, you can't get a table (read Restaurant reservation thread on General board.) It goes to your point of it being a marketing ploy, which I don't really have a gripe with. If they can figure out a way to explain charred loup de mer to the public and make it sound so interesting that the place is always packed, good for them. I think TC is a nice guy and he should make millions. But let's be real about it. It's stilled charred loup de mer. There isn't any real improvement in technique over other places.

[Wilfrid]

(T)his conversation hasn't been about the quality of the food, it's been about the quality of the experience...

Life is too short to read through this thread again, let alone its mother-thread.  But I could have sworn someone claimed that, aside from the mission-claims and service gimmicks, the food at Craft - while maybe okay - was no better than could be had at all kinds of other places.

Rather than just repeat my usual question, let me ask it a different way:  unsatisfactory though rankings are, how would people rank Craft for food, as opposed to for the overall experience.  Is it very roughly the same level as Gramercy Tavern or Cafe Boulud?  Does it compare with Bid, Ouest or Blue Hill?  Or is the quality comparable with slightly less ambitious bistros like Michael's, The Independent, The Harrison or JUdson Grill?*

I ask because, for all the eloquence above, I really can't get a handle on what some of the people posting here really think about the quality of the food.

*I know all these restaurants are different and hard to compare, thanks,

  - just trying to get a rough idea.

[yvonne johnson]

I liked Blue Hill on first visit, but my minor disappointment was that I found the food (in main course dishes) sweet. On second visit, my chicken dish was over the top sweet (way too much fruit). Craft and CB I found superior not only b/c the food was less sweet, but because the food was more flavorful.

The only other one on your list that I've been to is Gramercy Tavern. Again C and CB I found superior. I've gone to GTavern twice and twice I thought the food was unadventurous, tasteless and the service overbearing. I happen to like rich sauces and even though C and CB don't say they go in for them, the sauces are richer at the two places in comparison to GT.

I don't know if I've added anything substantial. But I find C and CB more substantial and satisfying than the other places above.

[cookperrync]

to say Colicchio's cooking is Colicchio's cooking is like saying Jean-Georges's cooking is Jean-Georges's cooking or Ducasse's cooking is Ducasse's cooking. It doesn't make Jo Jo the same as Vong, it doesn't make ADNY the same as Spoon, and it doesn't make Craft the same as Gramercy Tavern. There are connections in spirit, but it is decidedly not the same. A comparison of menus, which I've just quickly done, will confirm that. There is no charcuterie at Gramercy Tavern, for example. (That's not getting into the issue of desserts, which are of course wildly different at the two restaurants).

Interesting.  I see the point how distinctive Collichio's style is, however, I don't feel that Craft's food is that different from GTs .  The difference between Spoon and ADNY is phenomenal and the same with Vong and JG.  Scanning over my menus from GT and Craft and can spot dishes at Craft that are striaght out of GT: braised pork belly and fish stew for example.  From Craft you could take the monkfish wrap it in some of the charcuterie and pair it with truffle vinaigrette and you would have a TC standard from GT.  You would be hard pressed to perform the same action at Vong or Spoon.

I tend to agree with you, however, on the issue of "form following substance" and the overall gestalt of a place: Passard's cooking would not taste the same on my back porch.  But does the room, service, and concept at Craft warm you over to look past the possibly dull food?  Rather selfishly, as a cook, I hope that one comes to a restaurant for its food first...I know, though, that is not always the case.  And all of this boils down to the question of what makes a great restaurant great...

Perry