An interface between the two languages

[torakris]

Here is a recipe in English posted by BON in an old thread that uses eggs instead of kansui:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...965entry18965

[Hiroyuki]

How about this one (in Japanese)

http://cookpad.com/sachigohan/index.cfm?Pa...67612&Mode=full

This recipe uses bread flour, an egg, and baking soda. No kansui is required!

[Kiem Hwa]

This evening, on the TV show Burari, the host visited a sushi shop, and had a piece of sushi made by the owner's son, who they called oimawashi.

What is the meaning of Oimawashi?

An non-food related question...On this same show, they often mention a description of someone as "iki", or certain acts as "iki", for instance standing up straight (Im sure there was more to it then just this), taking a bath (furo) in the morning...

What is "iki"?

Edited January 12, 2005 by Kiem Hwa (log)

[Hiroyuki]

This evening, on the TV show Burari, the host visited a sushi shop, and had a piece of sushi made by the owner's son, who they called oimawashi.

What is the meaning of Oimawashi?

An non-food related question...On this same show, they often mention a description of someone as "iki", or certain acts as "iki", for instance standing up straight (Im sure there was more to it then just this), taking a bath (furo) in the morning...

What is "iki"?

←

Oimawashi means errand runner. In the culinary world, the word is used to refer to someone who does odd jobs around the shop, is rarely allowed to use a knife yet, and learns techniques from his seniors and the master chef by watching them do their jobs.

Iki, written as 粋 in this sense, can be translated into something polished, sophisticated, urbane, etc., etc., but there is no exact equivalent for iki in English.

To understand iki better, I have to introduce two other words, inase (dashing as in dashing youth) and Edokko (townspeople of Edo).

It was important for Edokko to be iki and inase. Some acts considered iki by Edokko sound ridiculous, though. For example, taking a very hot bath, enduring the heat, was considered iki, so was eating soba (buckwheat noodles) by dipping only about the lower one-third of the soba hanging from the chopsticks in the soup bowl and then slurping it up.

To learn more about iki, visit related webpages such as:

http://smt.blogs.com/tokyo_travel/2004/07/...o_being_st.html

http://202.221.217.59/print/features/books...b20040912dr.htm

http://cosmoshouse.com/works/papers/aes-every-e.htm

[easternsun]

Yesterday as my family was having lunch at Yoshinoya (my first time there in almost 14 years!), the man a couple chairs away (the restuarant is set up as one big sort of s shaped counter) stood and announced "gochisousama" as the way of letting the waiter know he was ready to pay his check. I have never really noticed anyone ever do that before in this kind of restaurant, of course I also don't normally frequent those kind of restaurants....

I didn't notice any of the other customers do it either though and I would probably never use it in that kind of situation, so it really just depends on the person.

I always do that!

So how do you usually ask for your check in this type of place?

←

kind of a late reply to this post - we say "sumimasen, owaiso"...we are about to be finished. this gives us time to collect our things while they calculate the bill.

or sometimes, in noisier, busier establishments, a smile and the two index fingers crossed in an "x".

of course, this is in casual places.

[shinju]

Does anyone here use or perhaps recommend Japanese language recipe software that we can add our own recipes? For a while I was able to add recipes to English language recipe software, but since upgrading Windows it garbles. Thanks again!

[torakris]

Here is a list of some

Japanese cooking software

A long time ago I used one called 料理マム　　(ryouri mamu) and I was able to add my own recipes but the newer software from that series doesn't say anything about being able to do that and it is a bunch of separate disks each on a different kind of food...

[Hiroyuki]

I didn't know what shinju was talking about until I read torakris's reply.

Never used such software myself.

how about free software?

An example:

http://www.vector.co.jp/soft/winnt/home/se318081.html

The home page of Vector Soft Library:

http://www.vector.co.jp/magazine/softnews/

[shinju]

Thank you for the info. I download the freeware and although not all kanji graphics show up properly on my English Windows, I think I can figure this one out by trial and error.

Torakris - do you know if people in Japan use recipe software much for organizing recipes? I get the feeling it's not as widely used.

[torakris]

Thank you for the info.  I download the freeware and although not all kanji graphics show up properly on my English Windows, I think I can figure this one out by trial and error. 

Torakris - do you know if people in Japan use recipe software much for organizing recipes?  I get the feeling it's not as widely used.

←

I don't think it is very widely used at all.

Though many houses in Japan have computers, very few of the women I know that are about my age know how to use them. they usually belong to the men of the house. Children very rarely use them either. People get shocked when they come to our house and see that not only do my kids have they own computer (complete with tons of software) but they know how to use it!

Now that most people use their keitais (cell phones) for e-mail and browsing the internet, they don't have much need for a computer in the home.

[helenjp]

Recently I spotted SD card recipe collections...to slot into your mobile phone and view on the color screen, I imagine!

[Hiroyuki]

Thank you for the info.  I download the freeware and although not all kanji graphics show up properly on my English Windows, I think I can figure this one out by trial and error. 

Torakris - do you know if people in Japan use recipe software much for organizing recipes?  I get the feeling it's not as widely used.

←

I don't think it is very widely used at all.

Though many houses in Japan have computers, very few of the women I know that are about my age know how to use them. they usually belong to the men of the house. Children very rarely use them either. People get shocked when they come to our house and see that not only do my kids have they own computer (complete with tons of software) but they know how to use it!

Now that most people use their keitais (cell phones) for e-mail and browsing the internet, they don't have much need for a computer in the home.

←

My wife never wants to use my PC, although she knows how to use a word processor. My son (8) has a PC of his own, which is not connected to the Internet. He sometimes wants to use mine to learn about various matters such as mushrooms, the universe, and plants. My daughter (5) sometimes uses her brother's PC to draw pictures with the mouse.

[mascarpone]

Okashi does this mean "silly, crazy"? Apart from kurutayru which means insanity.

How does this apply to Okashi as a snack food? Are they silly foods?

[torakris]

Okashi does this mean "silly, crazy"? Apart from kurutayru which means insanity.

How does this apply to Okashi as a snack food? Are they silly foods?

←

The two words actually have no relation to each other, okashi is a sweet/snack and okashii (note the extra i on the end) means silly, crazy, weird in a funny way, etc.

If you write them in Japanese they are quite different.

おかしい　okashii is often written in hiragana but the kanji look like this 可笑しい

When you are talking about snacks the actual is just kashi with an "honorable o" added to the front of it. Ｋashi looks like this　菓子, then when you add the o, it looks like this お菓子。

[Hiroyuki]

Okashi does this mean "silly, crazy"? Apart from kurutayru which means insanity.

How does this apply to Okashi as a snack food? Are they silly foods?

←

torakris has provided a detailed explanation. No need for me to add more.

but what is kurutayru anyway?

Is it kurutteru 狂ってる? Then it means crazy, insane, incorrect, etc.

[mascarpone]

Sorry, I should have spelled this as you just did: kurutteru. Gomenosigh (sp?)

[Hiroyuki]

Sorry, I should have spelled this as you just did: kurutteru. Gomenosigh (sp?)

←

If you mean ごめんなさい, then it should be Gomen nasai.

[Hiroyuki]

I know there is no exact equivalent for itadakimasu or gochisousama, but suppose you are a teacher of English for third graders at an elementary school and you are asked, "How do you say itadakimasu and gochisousama in English?", what will your answer be?

All I can think of at the moment is "Let's eat!" and "Thank you. It was delicious."

[Pan]

I think the closest idiomatic translation of itadakimasu into English (!) would be "bon appetit"! But whereas "bon appetit" is a common thing to wish your dining partners before a meal, there is no similarly universal idiomatic expression functionally equivalent to gochisousama, so I think your translation of that is best.

[sizzleteeth]

Not sure how accurate they are - but I've always liked these explanations:

gochisōsama: an expression of thanks to the host for his or her devotion in preparing that meal – his or her efforts, time, attention, patience, thoughtfulness, etc.; CY pp. 20-21: Go is an honorific prefix, and sama is an honorific suffix, so the root of the word gochisō-sama is chi-sō. Chi-sō is written with the kanji character chi, which is written with a character that can be taken to mean “rushing on horseback,” and the character sō can be taken to mean “to run on foot.” In other words, chi-sō is an expression of thanks to a host who has run around gathering materials to prepare a feast. That reminds me of my mother who always ran around preparing my favorite dishes every time I returned home from studying at Ryukoku University in Kyoto. Itadaki-masu is an expression of thanks for a prepared meal, and more precisely, to the lives sacrificed in order to create it. Gochisō-sama is an expression of thanks to the host for his or her devotion in preparing that meal – his or her efforts, time, attention, patience, thoughtfulness, etc. The “head” referred to in the term itadaki-masu is the highest part of the body, just as the “foot” in the term gochisō-sama is the lowest. Thus, itadaki-masu symbolically means to receive with the highest part of our self, while gochisō-sama symbolically means receiving the lowest part of the host’s body. Both are the highest expressions of thanks that we can give at meals.

itadakimasu. I humbly and reverently receive this (without any sense of entitlement) CY pp. 18-20: Shinran Shōnin selected Nagarjuna (Ryuju in Japanese), an Indian Buddhist scholar/monk who lived during the 2nd and 3rd century of the modern era, as the First Patriarch of our Jōdo-Shinshū teaching. He was a great scholar and prolific writer who wrote the Junirai, the Twelve Adorations, which are verses in praise of Amida Buddha. As you all know, this Junirai is frequently chanted in our BCA temple services. In the Junirai, Nagarjuna extols Amida Buddha’s virtues and closes each stanza with o-ga-chō-rai-mi-da-son.” This phrase means, “Thus I praise Amida Buddha by chō-rai.” The word chō-rai in this phrase is written with two kanji characters. The first, chō, means “top” of the head, and the rai character means to venerate or to worship. Thus, chō-rai is “worshipping Amida Buddha (in the most humble way by putting his feet) on my head.” The kanji character itadaki of itadaki-masu is the same character as the chō of chō-rai; the only difference is how the character is read. The term itadakimasu thus means “to receive by putting on my head.” Both chō-rai and itadaki-masu mean the same thing, but chō-rai emphasizes respecting others, while itadaki-masu emphasizes the respectful way in which we receive things. I believe we are allowed to live only through the sacrifices of other forms of life. These forms include living things such as fruits, vegetables and animals, as well as what we consider to be inanimate things, such as water and soil. But in spite of our great indebtedness to them, we tend to take the sacrifices of these animate and inanimate beings for granted. It seems to me that those who live on a spiritual level cannot refrain from receiving these sacrifices with deepest humility and gratitude, by raising them to the level of their head. And that is precisely what itadaki-masu means. We must never lose sight of the fact that itadaki-masu means giving thanks not only to the meals that we receive, but more importantly, to all the materials that were used to create those meals, to all those beings whose lives we took by force. How can we not revere those sacrifices? It is only because they have given up their life that we are able to sustain our own.

Edit:

BTW - this is what I was referencing when talking about this in the daily N thread:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...56entry556656

Edited June 30, 2005 by sizzleteeth (log)

[smallworld]

I know there is no exact equivalent for itadakimasu or gochisousama, but suppose you are a teacher of English for third graders at an elementary school and you are asked, "How do you say itadakimasu and gochisousama in English?", what will your answer be?

All I can think of at the moment is "Let's eat!" and "Thank you.  It was delicious."

←

The correct answer to those third graders would be that there is no itadakimasu and gochisousama in English.

Perhaps this would be a good time to explain that languages don't always match up perfectly. Language is a product of culture, and it is only natural that each language has developed special words to describe its customs.

Hopefully a good teacher could do this in a way that would pique the kids' interest rather than scare them away from foreign languages. Make it fun- introduce a few neat examples of English words or phrases with no Japanese equivellant, like saying "Bless you" after someone sneezes.

[Hiroyuki]

Thanks, everyone.

I think I'll convey your messages to the third graders and/or their home room teachers.

[dornachu]

What an interesting thread!!! I reaad the whole thing and i have a few questions , hope you don't mind. I never took japanese before, i learned to get by when I travel to Japan via those phrase books..

1. When i order sushi, i used to only say e.g Hamachi kudasai, but i was reading the first few post, and i have to add the honorable word "wo"? I am only familiar with "wa", when do i use wa and wo?

2. Usually when i go to a restaraunt, i have no idea what they are saying at first, i just tell them how many people just to be safe. What are some of the common things they say?

3. How do you say hot tea pls? is ocha kudasai understood that it's hot?

4. when someone brings something over, and u want to thank him or her, can i say dozo instead of arigato? Thanks!!

dorna

[torakris]

1. When i order sushi, i used to only say e.g Hamachi kudasai, but i was reading the first few post, and i have to add the honorable word "wo"?  I am only familiar with "wa", when do i use wa and wo?

←

"wo" を is different thaｎ the honorable "o" お, wo is a particle that follows a direct object. "wa" (when written it is written with the character ha は ) follows a topic and "ga" が yet another particle follows a subject.

As we don't really have "topics" in English it can get confusing...

this site explains wo pretty good

When asking for something with kudasai, it should be ~~wo kudasai, though many people leave the wo off in casual conversation.

[torakris]

2.  Usually when i go to a restaraunt, i have no idea what they are saying at first, i just tell them how many people just to be safe. What are some of the common things they say?

←

The first thing they normally ask is how many people in your party.

"Nan mei sama desu ka?"

Answering by holding up the appropriate number of fingers is fine.

If it is a restaurant with both smoking and non-smoking they may ask if you have a preference.

kitsu-en seki smoking section

kin-en seki non-smoking section

If it is a restaurant with a variety of seating arrangements that may ask where you would like to sit.

teburu de yoroshii desu ka? Is a table Ok?

kaunta de yoroshii desu ka Is the counter Ok?

zashiki de yoroshii desu ka? zashiki is the Japanese style low table often its own room but sometimes separated by dividers

If the place is really small you may be asked

aiseki de yoroshii desu ka?

Do you mind sharing a table?