Hugo's, Ciudad, Fonda San Miguel, etc.

[theabroma]

About 2 weeks ago I got to join fifi some of the Houston people for a lecture on chocolate and a late dinner and cuppa chocolate at Hugo's in Houston on Westheimer. Now a Pueblan friend tells me that she may be going to work there.

I was really delighted with my dinner - a green mole and with what I managed to cadge from my dining companions when they were not looking. I'd like to hear more about Hugo's and any other such venues anywhere in the state.

Here in Dallas we have basically 2: Javier's which bills itself as Mexico City style, really seems more like the Frontera Ranchera cuisine with lots of grilled meats, and then there is Ciudad, which uses traditonal ingredients in sort of a nueva cocina azteca sort of way.

I know that in Austin, the queen of these restaurants is Fonda San Miguel.

What else is out there? I'd love to hear more opinions about the old guard and mention of any new places that have opened up.

Theabroma

[ExtraMSG]

Hey, Sharon, besides Texas and Mexico, what other tablecloth Mex-Mex have you had? I know it's a little off-topic because this is the Texas board, but I'd really be interested in people's claims at the best in the country and comparisons.

I've been to Bayless's 2 restaurants, Javier's, Ciudad, and Dona Tomas in the US, along with our local places here in Portland: Taqueria Nueve, Nuestra Cocina, and the now-gone Cafe Azul (which was the best of any of them, I think, and still just makes me want to break things when I think about it being gone). I really want to hit more in Texas, make a trip to LA and Arizona and possibly NY. I should get back to Chicago sometime, too, since Bayless has spawned so many spinoffs, some of which people seem to claim are better.

Sorry to take it off-topic. I'm eager to hear about Texas tablecloth Mex-Mex, too.

[theabroma]

Hey, Nick! You come on in! You have hit one dilemma square on the head: the Mexico forum is ill- and oddly-attended, I'm here in Texas, you're there in Oregon, and we eat wherever we are. So, go for it.

What passes for logic would seem to demand that most of the high-end Mx restaurants would be somewhere in the southwest, la or nyc - or chicago. But I say let's talk about the ones we know of, and hope that others will come and talk about those in their back yards.

I have never eaten (I'm having a shame attack writing this) in either Topolobampo or Frontera Grill. Does Bayless have other, newer venues?

I always look for places in San Antonio. La Fogata is very pretty but the food is competent, and that;s it. I loved Cascabel's when Jay McCarthy was there. I know of nothing in El Paso, either.

And Javier's? What did you think? Ciudad?

I often wonder what's up with these places. I would think that, especially after the roaring success Bayless has had, that there would be more places like that, especially here in Texas. Doesn't seem so at this point, and I wonder why?

People aren't ready/willing to pay white tablecloth prices for 'enchiladas'? Especially this close to the border?

I want to hear your thoughts. I want to hear thoughts from the Texas gang too.

Theabroma

[Scott -- DFW]

Theabroma,

A recent entry in that category is Fort Worth's Lanny's Alta Cocina: http://www.guidelive.com/profile/102896/ . I haven't been there yet. Don't know anyone who has. I'm skeptical of anything Fort Worth (having lived there). And I'm even more skeptical of any review that includes the words "Joe T. Garcia's." But, if we can get an e-Gullet group together, I'd be willing to give it a try. (There's a minimum party size requirement.)

The lack of good Mexican fine dining options in Texas is an utter embarrassment.

Scott

[Raynickben]

Extra MSG: What happened to Cafe Azul???

[Scott -- DFW]

Raynickben,

Cafe Azul recently closed. See the following thread from the Pacific Northwest board: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...=0entry504983 .

Unfortunate. It was a great restaurant.

Scott

[ExtraMSG]

I don't think Bayless has anything new, but several people who had worked there, I think, have started restaurants over the last 5 years or so. A Chicagoan would know better, but I know I've read mention of several places.

I think the money issue is a big one. People aren't really willing to pay for upscale Chinese, Indian, or Thai, either, no matter where you are because down the street is a place charging half the price for something that most people may not find entirely distinguishable. Of coruse, most people don't think it's worth paying for prime beef, ripe tomatoes, or non-farmed fish, either. It's unfortunate, I think, because when I have eaten upscale versions of ethnic cuisines, including Mexican, there has definitely been some value added. I just think we need more people who like haute food and want ethnic versions of it. There'll probably never be enough rich Mexicans, Thais, Chinese, Indians (well, maybe not this last one), etc, to give that base. Although, the Japanese may be the exception to look to. But I think they always had an advantage in ethnic haute cuisine. It's more naturally haute like French is.

I've only eaten at Javier's and Ciudad once each. I think your description of Javier's helps solidify my take on it. It's more about saucing things off the grill than giving people Mexico City Mexican (not that that is as distinct as other regions, since Mexico City tends to be a hodge-podge like NY or Chicago). It was good, but I was hoping for something more. I had the Filete Cantinflas. I think of it as a place well-suited to Texan tastes, but not so much mine. Maybe if I was in the mood for a steak and wanted some Mexican flavor as well, I'd go back. I enjoyed my visit to

Ciudad, unfortunately, I only went to for brunch. Here's what I wrote after that visit:

CIUDAD: Had brunch here. I wish they had more of their dinner items since I'm not much of a breakfast person, but it was still a good way to introduce myself to their food. Had the duck flautas, which I didn't think were that good (though they did come with the nice omni-present fruit pico), and the beef in red mole omelette, which was pretty good. The flautas were burnt, but I didn't think the insides were very tasty either. The red mole was tasty and the beef nice and tender. It also came with a creamier sauce that reminded me of a enchilada sauce I sometimes make with pepitas. Pretty good. Had desserts, too. Had the corn cake with fruit pico, rum ice cream, and fruit sauce. Also had the warm cookie pudding cake with a cream and fruit sauce and cajeta. I preferred the former dessert, but my friend preferred the latter. Both were good, though, I just thought the corn cake had a lot more flavor and a lot more interesting flavor. The latter could have also used a lot more cajeta.

I'd be interested to try them again more than Javier's, I think. I'd also like to go back to Nuevo Leon. Their prices are much better and you still can get very good quality regional Mexican dishes. I had a sauce there that was plate-licking tasty, I thought.

[theabroma]

Theabroma,

A recent entry in that category is Fort Worth's Lanny's Alta Cocina: http://www.guidelive.com/profile/102896/ . I haven't been there yet. Don't know anyone who has. I'm skeptical of anything Fort Worth (having lived there). And I'm even more skeptical of any review that includes the words "Joe T. Garcia's." But, if we can get an e-Gullet group together, I'd be willing to give it a try. (There's a minimum party size requirement.)

The lack of good Mexican fine dining options in Texas is an utter embarrassment.

Scott

Aha! What did you say that minimum size requirement was? Put me down on the list of people to go. We could maybe hit a taqueria or two or Hot Damn, Tamales! Backpack the Pepto.

My schedule is flexible for the next couple of weeks. I will volunteer the 3 available seats in my car for the trek.

Anyone else??

Theabroma

[theabroma]

I'd also like to go back to Nuevo Leon. Their prices are much better and you still can get very good quality regional Mexican dishes. I had a sauce there that was plate-licking tasty, I thought.

I agree with you on Nuevo Leon. I haven't been back in awhile - Greenville location got real crazy and I keep forgetting about the one on Oak Lawn.

Hands down they still hold the crown for the niftiest presentation of the best Sopa de Tortilla I've had in a restaurant in Dallas. It in a large, wide-shouldered flattish soup dish, the thin, corkscrewed tortilla strips were stacked in a square in the center like so much edible firewood. Toasted strips of chipotle, finely shredded chicken breast, slivers of red onion, fans of avocado slices garnished the plate. The scalding broth was served separately, in a small pitcher. It was a rich double broth. Then they crumbled queso into it. Really inventive, really simple and elegant, and very, very good.

What are your favorites there?

Theabroma

[ExtraMSG]

Scott would probably be better to ask. I know he used to go there a lot. I can't remember the name of the plate-lickable sauce. I think it was a pork in a green sauce. Scott should know. It's been a while for me. I really need to get down there for a 5 day weekend of pigging out. I need to hit Lockart and Luling for some bbq, Nuevo Laredo for some cabrito, and everywhere between Dallas and Laredo for Mexican.

[Scott -- DFW]

I vaguely recall ExtraMSG having Nuevo Leon's cabrito al horno. One of their better dishes. It comes with your choice of quail or carnitas in mole. He probably chose carnitas. Their carnitas con chipotle is also a very tasty dish.

Scott

[theabroma]

I really need to get down there for a 5 day weekend of pigging out.

I need to hit Lockart and Luling for some bbq, Nuevo Laredo for some cabrito, and everywhere between Dallas and Laredo for Mexican.

Yes you do. And naaaah ... you need to go to La Tupinamba on the north side of the zocalo in Reynosa for cabrito - been there for 1,000 years. Big azulejo tiled fire pit in the window loaded w/strung up goat carcasses. Couple of ladies inside making corn tortillas a mano. Oh, man that place was good. Then its a catty corner march across the zoc to the Mission Bar for a shoe shine and a few tequilas.

Ah, the Border. Nothing quite like it ... right down to that screaming raspberry pink toilet paper!!!

Theabroma

[theabroma]

Well, anybody familiar with the Liberty Bar on Josephine St. in San Antonio? Though not exactly north end Mexican, they do have a wunnerful plate of quail in mole verde.

Theabroma

[nessa]

I've eaten at Topolobampo, Frontera Grill, and Fonda San Miguel.

I had lunch a couple of times at Frontera Grill, and was not overly wowed. I really had expected to be enamored and awed. Presentation was nice, flavor was ok, food was luke warm. Everything sounded great on the menu but somehow was lost in translation by the time it got to my plate.

Topolobampo, I really hardly remember. That doesn't really say much, as my SO was along with, and was expecting something along the lines of large portions and more recognizable favorites. His dissapointment rather dampened my enjoyment as well. I remember thinking that it was very haute but other than that...... Don't get me wrong, I remeber it as being very good and a nice experience. But apparently not all that memorable. Could be just me. The menus sound so divine, but I was not impressed enough go back.

Now, on the other hand, I remember every meal I've had at Fonda San Miguel's.

Pardon me while I swoon. To me, thats mexican done right. Its certainly not your regular border grub. Not that I scoff at that at all. In my opinion does what Topolobampo tries to do. Sorta. I don't mean to degrade Topo, I only ate there once and the conditions were not the best.

My impression of Topo was that it was haute, foofy and very artistic. It also seemed a bit more fusiony. FSM's every dish just explodes with flavor, texture, aroma, and love. My mother and I think we had the best lamb of our lives there. We eat family style no matter where we go, offering bites from our plate to all at the table. Num.

I'm not biased cause I live in Texas, I lived in Chicago two years and all but idolized Rick. I love his cooking shows. I think part of the reason that we dont have more fine dining for Mexican food is that it is so often seen as a peasant's food, and seen as simplistic, cheap and filling. It is so prevalent in Texas that one is simply innundated by mexican restaurants everywhere that are all so so, and some just bad. Its what is cooked at home. Its everywhere. That doesn't tend to engender thoughts of white table clothes. Here in Texas we see mexican food as tacos, burritos, enchiladas and fajitas. Theres taco hells and taco cabanas on every corner. Its hard to get folks past that to see huitlacoche and borrego.

Perhaps where there is not quite so much tex-mex saturation, it is easier to support really fine Mexican dining? Just a theory.

[theabroma]

Interesting thoughts and observations about Frontera & Topolobampo.

And I apologize for my use of the awkward term 'white tablecloth'. I really, really didn't want to get into upscale, and by using 'traditional' I was afraid that it would seem that I was excluding the new wave. So it meant it more in spirit rather than as a literal furnishing of a restaurant.

What about the Sunday brunch at Fonda San Miguel? That always makes me crazy ... so many moles, cactus paddle salad, and the chef's grandma's capirotada - it has cilantro in it! It has been an enduring presence. I just wish the road from FSM to the tiniest taqueria were more of a ramp than a jump off the culinary cliff...

Anybody been to La Fogata in San Antonio recently??

Theabroma

[fitz]

What about the Sunday brunch at Fonda San Miguel?

Anybody been to La Fogata in San Antonio recently??

Hey, somewhere in between the beer and barbecue, weren't we discussing the possibility of doing the Sunday brunch at Fonda San Miguel? We actually haven't been there in more than two years, so we'd be more than up for it.

As for La Fogata, I guess we don't get any points for noticing it as we drove by when we were in San Antonio a few months back, but I think it's on our list for our next visit...

[JetLag]

Having lived in Mexico City for several years to be Mexico City style they would have to serve Swiss Food, Sushi or Polish food. Mexico City or DF, as it is known to the locals, has fewer real Up Scale Mexican Restaurants than any other city. It's all the fashion not to eat Nexican food.

[claire797]

I love eating at Fonda San Miguel, but they're not as innovative as the Bayless restaurants. FSM has more traditional interior Mexican dishes such as enchiladas, tacos, and charcuterie. They don't seem to be looking for new ways to innovate -- which is fine with their clientele. When I ate at Frontera, I was lucky enough to sit down and talk with Rick Bayless. He agreed that FSM was more old-school.

Guess I'm stating the obvious here .

Fitz, I can't do Sunday brunch but I'd be up for a FSM dinner. I keep meaning to get up there.

Edited April 21, 2004 by claire797 (log)

[slbunge]

About 2 weeks ago I got to join fifi some of the Houston people for a lecture on chocolate and a late dinner and cuppa chocolate at Hugo's in Houston on Westheimer.

Where on Westheimer? I'll be in Houston next week and may need to branch out from where I usually end up eating.

[theabroma]

About 2 weeks ago I got to join fifi some of the Houston people for a lecture on chocolate and a late dinner and cuppa chocolate at Hugo's in Houston on Westheimer.

Where on Westheimer? I'll be in Houston next week and may need to branch out from where I usually end up eating.

This is Robb Walsh's review which appeared in Dec 2002 in the Houston Press. If anything, the place is even better.

http://www.houstonpress.com/issues/2002-12...ml/1/index.html

I hope you get a chance to go, it's just a very special place with superb food.

Theabroma

[Scott -- DFW]

Had two meals at Fonda San Miguel last weekend. We passed plates clockwise so everyone got to try every dish. Appetizers sampled were the tostadas (guacamole, cochinita pibil, and a bland chicken tinga), sopes (fish, shrimp in adobo, and nopales), and queso asado (with poblano rajas and slices of chorizo). Entrees were lamb chops with chipotle au grain potatoes and a side salad, pescado Veracruzana (with a pico of olives, capers, tomatoe, onion, sided with rice and beans), a chile relleno (ancho, filled with chicken, olives, capers, and almonds, with rice, beans, and a cilantro cream sauce), duck in salsa verde, and a special "barbacoa" (beef short ribs cooked in banana leaf, with a slaw and soupy black beans). Desserts were crepes with cajeta (and cajeta ice cream), tres leches, and a "coffee toffee" pie (sort of like a firm semifreddo).

Almost every thing was good (the barbacoa special being the exception, tasting like last week's pot roast wrapped in a banana leaf), but nothing was exceptional. I admire their commitment to doing more traditional dishes. The presentations were very good. The restaurant is quite attractive. Service was solid, apart from a couple of glitches (i.e., their failure to confirm reservation requests twice and a nearly half hour gap between table clearing and presentation of dessert menus on the second visit). Given the package, it's a reasonable value. But, focusing on the food, I didn't have a single dish that made me want to go back for more. On the basis of these meals, I'd say I like the idea of Fonda San Miguel more than its actuality. It felt like so much unfulfilled promise.

So I'm still on the lookout for the great "white tablecloth" Mexican restaurant. Did anyone ever go to Lanny's Alta Cocina in Fort Worth?

Scott

[theabroma]

No, not yet on Lanny's. And interesting on La Fonda. That is probably one of the prettiest restaurants around anywhere, but it has never quite lived up to its promise. Besides the problem of having so many regional things hit you at once - like the jangle of cochinita right up against the mole negro, chased by the capirotada.

And Scott, I think that most 'barbacoa' that you will find in Texas is oven-roasted pot roast. When I lived in San Juan, near Pharr, I had friends and neighbors who used to pit cook cow heads on the weekends (there were always at least two people who liked the eyes, so I let them get in line ahead of me. What?? All gone!!! Oh my!!!), and a lot of the tienditas and tortilleras had the genuine article - but outside a setting like that, the real stull is hard to come by.

Which gets me back to FSM in your example, and any other place - white tablecloth or not - if you're not going to dig a hole out back and do it right, then don't put it on the menu!. Please.

And maybe the critical mass for a restaurant like Fonda del Refugio, Nuu Luu in Oaxaca, Hacienda los Morales, Izote, Isadora, Girasoles, etc. just isn't present in Texas - or really anywhere else in the US yet. Hugo's was really quite good. FSM is bright (for me) only at the buffet ... and that is not uniform. Guero's in Austin, which once upon a time when it was on Oltorf was good, but now is an El Fenix putting on airs, Mario's in San Antonio, before he got so enamored of arming whoever in Mx that he had to go on permanent vacation in Spain had potential.

Bayless, remember, has a MA in Latin American Studies, focus on Mexico. He came from a restaurant family. Those places were a labor of love for him. It is so incredibly rare to find someone like that, and you know them because their passion lights up the night sky. The only other person that comes to mind who did something like that was Barbara Tropp with her books and with China Moon. But an evil dealer at the gene bank robbed us of her two years ago. I cannot think of anyone in Texas, with the possible exception of Monica Greene, who has had that kind of fire in the belly.

That's why I mostly go sniffing at cazuelas in the little joints where the home cooking is going on. They more frequently produce a return on gastronomic investment which exceeds that of the fancier establishments. Maybe for now eating in Mexico just ruins you for eating Mx. food here??? Is that a possibility??

Theabroma

[ExtraMSG]

Scott, the obvious question is how does it compare to others: Frontera, Topolo, Ciudad, Javier's, Nuevo Leon, and Cafe Azul? (Are there any others besides these that you've been to in the US?) I guess you could add Girasoles in Mexico, too.

I think the best I've ever been to is Xitomates in Puerto Vallarta. I liked it decently better than Girasoles (only having been to each once). But I liked Cafe Azul better than Girasoles, too. I do wish I had kept the menu from Girasoles, though, like I did for Xitomates. I should scan that it and upload it along with a couple Cafe Azul menus.

One of the things I liked about Xitomates, Cafe Azul, and Nuevo Leon was that all three seemed to exceed their menus (whereas Frontera, eg, disappointed on each of its menu items, even if the item was decent or good). Sounds like San Miguel may have the same problem.

btw, when the hell are you going to use your digital camera and give us some pics of your meals?

Sharon, there's a place here that calls its cabeza (steamed overnight, I believe) barbacoa. Is that widespread at all?

[Scott -- DFW]

Theabroma,

Thanks for the info on Texas barbacoa. Like Nick, I thought most of what I get around here was stewed, braised, or steamed cabeza, resulting in a tasty tangle of fat and fibers of beef (or, as I've had in one person's home, cabrito). But, since I rarely see the actual cooking process, I don't really know. There's also the complicating factor of nomenclature; what goes by one name in one place may go by a different name elsewhere. (Just did a quick search online and came up with the following site on barbacoa methods: http://www.lomexicano.com/barbacoa.htm .) In any event, my complaint isn't really with the "authenticity" of the dish, but with the result--a chunk of mostly dry, nondescript beef, lacking any noticeable seasoning, served without a sauce. Even if that were an authentic result, some authentic dishes are more worth replicating than others, and the restauranteur should exercise some discretion. (And the waiter lobbied hard for the barbacoa, steering me away from dishes that, in retrospect, I probably would have enjoyed more.)

Do we lack the critical mass to support an excellent, high-end Mexican restaurant? I don't think so. The fact that Fonda San Miguel, Cafe Azul, Topolobampo, Ciudad, et al., can survive or thrive at their respective price points suggests that the market is there. (Well, Cafe Azul is no more; but, from what I gather, that wasn't because of lack of business.) And I don't think any of those restaurants need much reconceptualization. They just need to improve the quality and, more importantly, consistency of their dishes. Rightly or wrongly, customers already have to get over the psychological hurdle of paying "this much" for Mexican food. So when they get a dud of a dish, their "value" concerns storm back to the fore.

Nick,

As soon as you give me idiot-proof instructions on how to include photos in my posts, I'll start including photos in my posts. I'm not sure how I'd rank Fonda San Miguel among the restaurants you've listed. It wouldn't near the top, because--despite the fact that nearly everything was good--nothing was great. With as many dishes as we had, something should have left an impression.

Scott

[ExtraMSG]

The bland tinga might be telling, too. Tinga is so easy to make intensely flavored and well-balanced, imo. It's so much easier than a mole. If a taqueria can make kick-butt tinga, then certainly an upscale restaurant should.

Have you played with the imagegullet yet? It's mostly idiot-proof. There's a link at the top of your page and everyone gets some free space. The images are only viewable within egullet, however.

Otherwise, you just put

[img=http://www.imageurl.com/imagename.jpg]

and it pops right in.

If you use Add Reply rather than Fast Reply, the buttons have hints.

Nice find on the link, btw. It's interesting to me how similar, really, the process is to kalua pig made for luaus.

Edited June 4, 2004 by ExtraMSG (log)