Washington DC Area Grocery Stores

[Miguelito]

Maybe off topic slightly but I must vent my spleen.

Why, oh why, does the cracker selection at Whole Foods suck so massively? Every cracker they sell tastes like cardboard. Are Carr's and Bremner's insufficiently politically correct or something?

Vent closed; spleen intact.

[hannnah]

Maybe off topic slightly but I must vent my spleen.

Why, oh why, does the cracker selection at Whole Foods suck so massively?  Every cracker they sell tastes like cardboard.  Are Carr's and Bremner's insufficiently politically correct or something? 

Vent closed; spleen intact.

There seems to be some sort of strange consensus that salt's not "organic." Which, chemically, it isn't. But then, neither is water, and I've seen "organic water" for sale at Whole Foods. Anyway, if you compare pretty much any regular old grocery store cracker with the Whole Foods version, the WF version will invariably be 1) undersalted; 2) overly dry; and 3) twice as expensive.

On the other hand, have you tried the crackers made of nuts? They're actually good, assuming you're not allergic to nuts. They're not undersalted! They have texture! And they're not made by Whole Foods, which is probably why they taste good.

Also, one of our cats liked the cracked pepper and saffron crackers (non-nut-based but in the same section), although I didn't think they tasted like much of anything. This is the same cat who likes Goan fish curry, however, so read into that what you wish.

[Joe H]

There are several Harris Teeters in Atlanta that are probably 75 to 80,000 square feet and, for me, superior to any Harris Teeter in the D. C. area. Still, H-T is capable of a "national class" grocery store.

I haven't been in either of the Giants I mentioned in RV and Baileys in a number of years. In the late '80's they were the D. C. area's highest volume stores, slightly over $50 million per year each. I would suggest that Giant has either sat still or regressed, if you will, while H-T, Whole Foods and Wegmans have taken D. C. overall to a higher level.

Thanks, Steve, for your comments about NYC. I was not thinking of the suburban stores there.

I've been in the Wegmans in Pittsford four or five times and believe that their Dulles store is its equal although it lacks the Rochester store's restaurant. I've also been in Woodbridge and Downington but, honestly, haven't spent enough time to compare any of these. I did note that the Woodbridge store has a very large Indian section along with the tandoori oven. My guess is that Wegmans here is starting off slow to see which direction they should be developing various departments in.

There is also no question but that Wegmans is going to take a fair/large amount of business away from smaller specialty stores as well as other markets. Essentially it is the ultimate category killer. But a by product of Wegmans introduction into our market is that it causes a number of other stores to upgrade to be competitive.

Lastly, perhaps sadly, there are so few true grocers/butchers/bakers left in most citie's suburbs that a store like Wegmans often represents the only opportunity to find many foods. Overseas Auchan and Carrefour may have a significant impact on these small businesses-I think much more so than Wegmans because there are usually so many of them. But here this is often as much of a statement about our lack of certain kinds of stores.

[sweetfreak]

Maybe off topic slightly but I must vent my spleen.

Why, oh why, does the cracker selection at Whole Foods suck so massively? Every cracker they sell tastes like cardboard. Are Carr's and Bremner's insufficiently politically correct or something?

Vent closed; spleen intact.

I think it is because Whole Foods does not carry any products containing hydrogenated fats and most crackers contain some hydrogenated fats.

I hate Whole Foods cracker selection too.

[Turtleboy]

I've seen juices at Whole Foods that contain "Dehyrated Cane Juice,"

Edited April 29, 2004 by Turtleboy (log)

[hjshorter]

I've seen juices at Whole Foods that contain "Dehyrated Cane Juice,"

That's my favorite Whole Foods euphemism.

[Miguelito]

On the other hand, have you tried the crackers made of nuts? They're actually good, assuming you're not allergic to nuts. They're not undersalted! They have texture! And they're not made by Whole Foods, which is probably why they taste good.

I can't resist -- would these by any chance be VENTWORM NUT crackers???

[JennyUptown]

Joe H is BACK!

Where've you been, Joe?

[JPW]

More importantly,

Where's he goin' with that gun in his hand?

Joe W

[hannnah]

On the other hand, have you tried the crackers made of nuts?  They're actually good, assuming you're not allergic to nuts.  They're not undersalted!  They have texture!  And they're not made by Whole Foods, which is probably why they taste good.

I can't resist -- would these by any chance be VENTWORM NUT crackers???

Nah, just regular old nuts. I'm sure there's an untapped market niche for ventworm nut crackers though. Or perhaps ventworm nutcrackers?

[Joe H]

Because I know so many people I spend considerably more time on CH. There's a group of about ten or twelve of us who get together fairly often; this reinforces time spent on that board. I think this, Chowhound, and Road Food (the Jane and Michael Stern board: http://www.ofoto.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?US=0...id=332637551105 is the link to a recent outing of theirs') all have groups that post regularly and, in many instances, become like small families. In fact the two dinners that I put together at Laboratorio and Maestro for 30 and 58 people respectively were wonderful opportunities to meet new friends. If I had known about eG first I probably only rarely participate on CH.

[Steve Klc]

"There is also no question but that Wegmans is going to take a fair/large amount of business away from smaller specialty stores as well as other markets. Essentially it is the ultimate category killer. But a by product of Wegmans introduction into our market is that it causes a number of other stores to upgrade to be competitive."

I'm not so sure about this statement Joe. Let me try to explain what I mean:

The business has already been taken away from smaller specialty stores and it's not like we had them to begin with. Going back to the days of Dieter Schorner and Cafe/Patisserie Didier and up through Ann Amernick & Mark Furstenburg they've been fighting an uphill battle and mostly losing or going wholesale/commercial well before the arrival of Wegmans. It is not like our area, our consumers, ever encouraged smaller artisans in significant numbers to pursue high quality to begin with--we have not fostered a lot of smaller successful specialists, and unlike other cities didn't inherit much in terms of ethnic traditional specialists in this area to begin with. We don't have the depth of high quality independent or artisanal cheese shops, bakeries, boulangeries, charcuteries, patisseries, fish, butchers, chocolatiers etc. you find in other cities, neighborhoods or on the net. Most of the small specialty stores we do have underperform and/or are underappreciated. That's why so many affluent residents tolerated the absurdly high pricing and supposed cachet of D&D and Sutton even after they started to decline. I don't think the wine department and pricing at Wegmans will impact wine sales anywhere else either--no one is going to drive to Wegmans Sterling JUST to buy wine and their pricing and selection is not special. Local residents will still buy wine at Costco and Total and I don't think either will take an appreciable hit. No one living in McLean or Foxhall or Springfield will be buying wine in Sterling. But back to the small shops--we have so few of these smaller specialty stores that Wegmans out in Sterling really won't be taking anything away from them--their clientele is mostly from their own neighborhood anyway (Amernick, Poupon) depends heavily on weekday lunch business (Breadline) or has wholesale clientele which Wegmans isn't marketing to.

You know the Sterling/Chantilly/Reston/Ashburn area better than I do--but who are the high-quality threatened small shops--the bakeries, sausage makers, barbecue joints, cheesemongers etc out that way--that Wegmans will take business away from? I want to know so I can support them.

As far as taking business away from other markets--and by that I suspect you mean the Suttons, Dean & Deluca, Marvelous, perhaps even Whole Foods--this is likely false as well, at least in the short term. Why? Because most shopping is local and frankly, our populace doesn't care enough to make the drive, and our work days are extending, our free time continues to compress and there's one thing no one has been talking about in any great depth--traffic and construction on that stretch of 28 sucks. That part of the county is exploding and will soon be "one big interconnected office park strip mall chain restaurant big box high tech edge city" soon. It really doesn't matter when you try to go out there--even if you're willing to make the drive, say, from Old Town or Arlington--this area is going to be a traffic nightmare for quite some time, won't matter whether you're coming from 7 or the toll road. It's even awful weekday mid-morning and early afternoon--and it has gotten worse since the store opened. Eventually this will play out but really, Whole Foods and Sutton probably feel no incentive to rush to compete with Wegmans because once the novelty wears off, there's just one Wegmans in Sterling--privately I bet you they're overconfident they can retain their local price-gouged cachet-seeking customer base because they have consumer apathy and logistical impediments on their side. Peopl want to spend less time in their cars and in traffic, not more.

And do you really think the sad sack Safeways and Giants of our area, locked into restrictive union contracts and with unimaginative management feel the need to upgrade in any serious fashion besides mere cosmetics and advertising spin? This is after they supposedly upgraded to compete with the likes of Fresh Fields and Whole Foods 10-15 years ago? If anything, doesn't this eG thread demonstrate how unwilling they've been to upgrade and that the majority of their consumers seem perfectly happy to settle for what they're given locally because it just isn't that high a priority?

If anything, our area, when it comes to food and food appreciation, is conservative and un-competitive. Yes we have excellence here but not depth within categories: you don't actually have to be competitive, to continue to strive for excellence and grow, you can coast, get bored, remodel after 5 or 10 years, and continue to stay in business too easily.

I praise Wegmans like no other, but I've lived here too long and become too cynical about the level of awareness and appreciation of this metropolitan area to think the arrival of Wegmans will make much real difference--positive or negative--on anyone other than those of us who actually go to the store. Whole Foods philosophy, pricing, product selection, prepared foods, breads, whatever will not improve; the Safeways and Teeters will maintain the mediocre even keel they have maintained; we'll still grumble about not being able to find truly superior bread like one can find all over New York City. Though the Wegmans Herme chocolate and pastry lines are superior, wonderful products, priced fairly--no one doing good work locally will be impacted in any way because these products are out in Sterling. And too many of us just will not go. Sorry if I rambled.

[Basilgirl]

Just a word of caution here - when shopping at Giant, check expiration dates! I bought some Swiss cheese last week, went to use it last night, and the expiration date was JANUARY 5 2004. This has been happening with alarming frequency ever since Royal Ahold took over. The employees just don't seem to care anymore. For awhile I checked dates on EVERYTHING from mayonnaise to bacon, but I guess I lapsed.

[Mark Sommelier]

Just a word of caution here - when shopping at Giant, check expiration dates! I bought some Swiss cheese last week, went to use it last night, and the expiration date was JANUARY 5 2004. This has been happening with alarming frequency ever since Royal Ahold took over. The employees just don't seem to care anymore. For awhile I checked dates on EVERYTHING from mayonnaise to bacon, but I guess I lapsed.

This happens routinely at the lovely Watergate Safeway. To be fair to the employees, though, one time at checkout, the cashier pointed to the expiration date on a quiche I picked and turned it over and showed me the mold on the bottom. I learned really quickly to look for expiration dates there.

[mnebergall]

Just out of curiosity, what shops in the area would qualify as speciality or artisinal? The only one I can think of is Vace (the mold on the sausages in their cooler looks scary). Of course, there are the myriad latin and oriental groceries. And I not talking about the "gourmet" shops either.

I have lived in this hamlet for over 20 years and it suprises me that I can't think of another local specialty store. It leads me to suspect that I am guilty of the apathy that Steve perceives.

Who knows, perahps I can find one that has.... tasso ham.

[Steve Klc]

Just so you know, I did my part yesterday and asked for tasso, bacon not pre-sliced, Greek yogurt like Total and lebne out at Wegmans.

[mnebergall]

Just so you know, I did my part yesterday and asked for tasso, bacon not pre-sliced, Greek yogurt like Total and lebne out at Wegmans.

You are a great American.

[DonRocks]

I've sometimes found long-expired products at small, proprietor-owned flower-child places. The reasons seem obvious: low turnover, overworked owner, difficult to manage the inventory properly, limited budget for wasted products.

[Joe H]

You know the Sterling/Chantilly/Reston/Ashburn area better than I do--but who are the high-quality threatened small shops--the bakeries, sausage makers, barbecue joints, cheesemongers etc out that way--that Wegmans will take business away from? I want to know so I can support them.

This is the problem, Steve: there's virtually nothing out here in what otherwise amounts to an artisinal wasteland. Other than farm markets and a handful of decent bakeries the only ones who will really suffer are Sutton Place, Whole Foods, Giant, etc. A number of these have renovated their stores while adding new product lines.

Wegman's in D. C. would be catastrophic for many smaller stores since there are a number of them; but in the suburbs their damage is really limited to chains since there are so few artisans anywhere. Italian markets, Hispanic, Super H, etc., I don't think Wegmans will hae any impact on these.

[mnebergall]

I seem to recall that somewhere up this thread there is a speculation that Wegmans would probably not locate a store in MD because the liquor laws would not permit them to sell wine (I don't know if this is true or not). Also, it would be really hard for them to locate a store in DC because of their sheer space requirements (plus, I imagine that real estate is more expensive in DC that is is out in Sterling). I you accept that Wegmans is probably limited to putting stores only in the VA suburbs, there is little chance that they will run any specialty/artisanal (to the extent there are any) stores out of business.

[JPW]

I seem to recall that somewhere up this thread there is a speculation that Wegmans would probably not locate a store in MD because the liquor laws would not permit them to sell wine (I don't know if this is true or not). Also, it would be really hard for them to locate a store in DC because of their sheer space requirements (plus, I imagine that real estate is more expensive in DC that is is out in Sterling). I you accept that Wegmans is probably limited to putting stores only in the VA suburbs, there is little chance that they will run any specialty/artisanal (to the extent there are any) stores out of business.

I don't know if the Montgomery laws are a problem. In NY they can only sell beer (no wine) in grocery stores.

Wine and liquor are restricted to independently owned stores. What you often see is a business split into two. For example, my favorite sub shop in that rathole known as Binghamton NY was next door to the wine/booze shop a nice layout, considering you would often see the owner running from one to the other (OK in his case it was more like a shuffle with time for a smoke thrown in)

Plus they have stores in PA where they can't sell ANY booze.

[Steve Klc]

Ditto the Wegmans Woodbridge, NJ store--no wine. And as we've said before, remember that IKEA and the Price Club/Costco once were as far away as Sterling--on West Ox Road and in Potomac Mills--and now we have an IKEA easily accessible on the Beltway in College Park and a Costco smack dab in Pentagon City, 2 whole minutes from downtown DC. It can be done.

[mnebergall]

There have been Costcos closer than Sterling and Potomac Mills (though not as close as Pentagon City) for longer than I care to remember.

Edited April 30, 2004 by mnebergall (log)

[Steve Klc]

West Ox Road near Fair Oaks Mall was the first, no? Followed by Pentagon City.

[mnebergall]

There used to be a Price Club inside the beltway at Branch Ave. in PG County. I don't know if it is still there. There also is one just south of the Springfield interchange that has been there a long time as well. Also, BJ's at Landmark is an old timer.