Pâte de Fruits (Fruit Paste/Fruit Jellies) (Part 1)

cmflick · January 9, 2009

Interesting that they add the tartaric acid and continue to cook...
I always thought that you pretty much had to add the acid and pour out immediately.
←

Can you elaborate on this? I suspect that you're talking about the new Boiron recipes, but I'm not sure. I haven't seen the cooking instructions for the new recipes, just the ingredient quantities that Kerry Beal gave above.

I too thought that you had to pour immediately after adding the tartaric acid , because as soon as you add the acid the PdF starts to set.

John DePaula · January 9, 2009

Interesting that they add the tartaric acid and continue to cook...
I always thought that you pretty much had to add the acid and pour out immediately.
←
Can you elaborate on this? I suspect that you're talking about the new Boiron recipes, but I'm not sure. I haven't seen the cooking instructions for the new recipes, just the ingredient quantities that Kerry Beal gave above.
I too thought that you had to pour immediately after adding the tartaric acid , because as soon as you add the acid the PdF starts to set.
←

Instead of the usual cook to 75 brix, add acid, pour, they have you add acid, cook to 75 brix, then pour. Probably a mistake, though.

Kerry Beal · January 9, 2009

Ok, Tri2Cook is right - no way I can get this PDF file shared with you. I can forward a copy of the e-mail with the PDF in it to you if you send me your email address via the PM system. Once this is on the Boiron site it will make it easier to discuss it.

The instructions for the recipes read - place fruit puree and apple juice in a pan and bring to a boil. Slowly sprinkle in the pectin/sugar mixture. Heat gently, stirring constantly until mixture comes to the boil. Add sugar and glucose, add tartaric acid (if necessary). Cook to 107º C or 75Brix. Cool by adding spirits (if desired). Pour into frame same size as your guitar.

(preferably use a non-sterilized 100% apple juice without added acid)

Re when to add the acid - from the discussion in the Journal de Fruit - chef Ollivier Christien discusses fruit paste

1. Acidification consists of reaching a certain pH (3.5 +/-.5) to encourage gelling and give flavour. Here are 3 suggestions for the addition of acid during cooking -i - don't add acid to fruits that are already acidic (raspberry, cranberry-morello cherry, redcurrent, apricot, citrus, green apple, passion fruit. You will avoid adding extra liquid ii - Adding the acid at the beginning of the cooking process will give you the time to pour the mix into a mold (silicone or starch). iii - Adding again acid a the end of the cooking process will accelerate gelling and combine the fruit/acid taste, which is always beneficial.

2. The fruit paste can be frozen, lightly coated with starch and then covered with film (but without dipping in candying sugar). Thaw while still wrapped in film. Once it reaches room temperature, lightly moisten the fruit paste before dipping it in the candying sugar.

3. Try using a refractometer - you will finally succeed with your fruit paste...

4. Ideal storage conditions for fruit paste are 15-18ºC with 60 to 70 % humidity.

gap · January 10, 2009

Thanks Kerry - you always have your finger on the pulse (pun fully intended)

schneich · January 10, 2009

btw, is anyone going to sigep ?? if so please tell one could share

a rental car or so...

cheers

t.

Edward J · January 11, 2009

Just finished reading all 7 pages of this thread, wow....

I have been making only 1 variety of PdF on a weekly basis for over two years now--raspberry. I cook this to 106 C and then pour into silicone molds--aprox 8 gram cavities. I can pop them out and enrobe in chocolate within 2 hours.

Problem is, I just follow the recipie I have with no knowledge as to how or why the recipie works. From following the Boiron site's recipies and even using Boiron purees and apple pectin, none of the other varieites have worked for me: Lychee, mango, pineapple, etc.. That is to say, after 24-36 hrs I can't get them out of the silicone molds, it's just a mess.

From studying the Boiron chart, I see there are quite a few variables with the PdF formula , not just Brix. For instance the rhubarb recipie, rhubarb has a brix of 5, I believe, yet only requires 20 grams of pectin per batch, while other recipies with higher Brix levels require more pectin. Since I have had consistant luck with raspberry, I am assuming that the fibre content and/or viscosity has a huge impact on the final product.

Very grateful to Kerry for highlighting the acid, about adding acid at the begining for a more pourable consistancy, or adding it at the end for a firm consistancy.

Two things are certain for now, I will never completly master the formula untill I know how and why it works, and I better get myself a refractometer. LV only sells the one that goes toa around 60 brix...

John DePaula · January 11, 2009

Just finished reading all 7 pages of this thread, wow....
I have been making only 1 variety of PdF on a weekly basis for over two years now--raspberry. I cook this to 106 C and then pour into silicone molds--aprox 8 gram cavities. I can pop them out and enrobe in chocolate within 2 hours.
Problem is, I just follow the recipie I have with no knowledge as to how or why the recipie works. From following the Boiron site's recipies and even using Boiron purees and apple pectin, none of the other varieites have worked for me: Lychee, mango, pineapple, etc.. That is to say, after 24-36 hrs I can't get them out of the silicone molds, it's just a mess.
From studying the Boiron chart, I see there are quite a few variables with the PdF formula , not just Brix. For instance the rhubarb recipie, rhubarb has a brix of 5, I believe, yet only requires 20 grams of pectin per batch, while other recipies with higher Brix levels require more pectin. Since I have had consistant luck with raspberry, I am assuming that the fibre content and/or viscosity has a huge impact on the final product.
Very grateful to Kerry for highlighting the acid, about adding acid at the begining for a more pourable consistancy, or adding it at the end for a firm consistancy.
Two things are certain for now, I will never completly master the formula untill I know how and why it works, and I better get myself a refractometer. LV only sells the one that goes toa around 60 brix...
←

First of all, you can unmold the PdF as you usually would, but allow them to air dry on a grille for 2-3 days.

Secondly, That's the first time I've heard of the adding acid so soon. Haven't tried it yet, but I will.

Thirdly, there are lots of places to find a refractometer with the right range: JB Prince, pastry chef .com, and even ebay.

Edward J · January 12, 2009

Uhh.... I've been making the PdF for over 2 years now and casting them in silicone molds. I usually enrobe within 2 hours of casting. Have never let them air dry, and have never had any problems. Every few weeks I put aside a plate of 15 or 20 varieities, date it, and stash it away for 4 or 5 mths. for "quality control" purposes. Been doing this now since I started--2 years ago. No problems with the PdF--no mold or off flavours, but after 6 mths I do get some flavour fade and shrinking, but no problems otherwise.

There are quite a few instrument supply places here in Vancouver, so I'll probably check them out.

Have never--and will never buy anything off of flea-bay. I ain't a gonna out bid some guy, or get some anti-snipe software to ensure favourable odds of winning an auction. Besides many of the sellers are located in the US and are very--very reluctant (refuse) to sell outside of the "lower 49".

Kerry Beal · January 12, 2009

Uhh.... I've been making the PdF for over 2 years now and casting them in silicone molds. I usually enrobe within 2 hours of casting. Have never let them air dry, and have never had any problems. Every few weeks I put aside a plate of 15 or 20 varieities, date it, and stash it away for 4 or 5 mths. for "quality control" purposes. Been doing this now since I started--2 years ago. No problems with the PdF--no mold or off flavours, but after 6 mths I do get some flavour fade and shrinking, but no problems otherwise.
There are quite a few instrument supply places here in Vancouver, so I'll probably check them out.
Have never--and will never buy anything off of flea-bay. I ain't a gonna out bid some guy, or get some anti-snipe software to ensure favourable odds of winning an auction. Besides many of the sellers are located in the US and are very--very reluctant (refuse) to sell outside of the "lower 49".
←

I have bought an excellent refractometer off e-bay - from Hong Kong. Arrived in Canada in a matter of days. Had a little problem with one - they took it back and sent another with no problem. 'Buy it now' - so no bidding required. Was a hell of a lot cheaper than the one I had the hospital lab get for me from the lab supply company - and works just as well.

sote23 · January 12, 2009

I've bought lots of things from ebay, including my Mol D' Art 12kg melter. Never had a problem with anything I've bought off of there.

Luis

Serj · January 12, 2009

Kerry every recipe I've made with apple juice has been exactly as you posted on Jan 9 (sorry for the delayed response). Mix it in with the fruit puree, wait for it to come anywhere from warm to the touch-boil, add the 10% sugar/pectin mix, boil, glucose, boil, sugar, boil, acid is always at the end and any alcohol is after that.

As a side note, any time I do a combination of fruit purees, one of which is a lot more fibrous than the other (ie anything with banana), I add the more fibrous puree after I add the bulk of the sugar, to reduce the chance of it burning. It works pretty well. With purees like pear, which are also pretty fibrous, I just watch it a lot more closely than a mango or raspberry or whatever else.

As another side note, I've discovered that making a pate de fruit on an induction heater is no where near as successful as making it on a gas burner. On a low setting (on the induction) the PDF has been taking forever and coming out way too thick. On a high setting, it comes to temperature before all the sugar crystals have melted. I've had the same problem with melting isomalt, so it's got to be something with the way the induction waves heat up the sugar vs good old fashioned convection.

Serj · January 12, 2009

convection... conduction... whatever!

sote23 · January 12, 2009

Hi Serj,

How's it going? are you still at the school?

I haven't had any problems with pate de fruit with my induction burner.

Luis

Serj · January 12, 2009

I have a suspicion that the problem may be that I usually make a relatively big batch (2+kg puree) in a big pan and the outside of the pan doesn't get the heat, only the middle does... It's happened a few times on the induction, but never on the gas...

Finished school in summer 07, now i'm a worker bee at the Trump Tower here in Chicago. Can't believe it's been a year and a half- how time flies right?

Kerry Beal · January 12, 2009

I suspect it's the pot you are using Serj. Anna N - Queen of induction - notices a big difference in what she is cooking depending on the pot. A pot may be conductive but they differ a lot in how they react.

cmflick · January 12, 2009

Ok, Tri2Cook is right - no way I can get this PDF file shared with you. I can forward a copy of the e-mail with the PDF in it to you if you send me your email address via the PM system. Once this is on the Boiron site it will make it easier to discuss it.
The instructions for the recipes read - place fruit puree and apple juice in a pan and bring to a boil. Slowly sprinkle in the pectin/sugar mixture. Heat gently, stirring constantly until mixture comes to the boil. Add sugar and glucose, add tartaric acid (if necessary). Cook to 107º C or 75Brix. Cool by adding spirits (if desired). Pour into frame same size as your guitar.
(preferably use a non-sterilized 100% apple juice without added acid)
Re when to add the acid - from the discussion in the Journal de Fruit - chef Ollivier Christien discusses fruit paste
1. Acidification consists of reaching a certain pH (3.5 +/-.5) to encourage gelling and give flavour. Here are 3 suggestions for the addition of acid during cooking -i - don't add acid to fruits that are already acidic (raspberry, cranberry-morello cherry, redcurrent, apricot, citrus, green apple, passion fruit. You will avoid adding extra liquid ii - Adding the acid at the beginning of the cooking process will give you the time to pour the mix into a mold (silicone or starch). iii - Adding again acid a the end of the cooking process will accelerate gelling and combine the fruit/acid taste, which is always beneficial.
2. The fruit paste can be frozen, lightly coated with starch and then covered with film (but without dipping in candying sugar). Thaw while still wrapped in film. Once it reaches room temperature, lightly moisten the fruit paste before dipping it in the candying sugar.
3. Try using a refractometer - you will finally succeed with your fruit paste...
4. Ideal storage conditions for fruit paste are 15-18ºC with 60 to 70 % humidity.
←

I tried the new Boiron recipe this weekend. I used the new Boiron recipe for passion fruit PdF using 1000g passion fruit puree, 1000g apple juice, 200g/400g sugar/pectin, 1900g sugar, 400g glucose, 30g tartaric acid. Needless to say, I scaled the recipe way down. Otherwise I'd be eating the same batch of pate de fruit for the rest of the year! The acid was added immediately after the glucose, before cooking to 107C. Boiron suggested using non-sterilized, no acid added apple juice, but all that I could find was pasteurized with ascorbic acid (vitamin C) added. I did use the yellow pectin that I described in a post above. Much to my amazement, the PdF stayed very liquid throughout the cooking and was very liquid when poured into a frame. This would be great for filling silicon molds. I can't comment on the taste or texture yet as they are still drying out. I did cut off a corner yesterday to get a little taste (I couldn't wait!). My first impression was that the taste is very mild compared to most of the PdF that I make. Most notably, the taste seemed much less tart. I suspect that came from diluting the fruit puree with apple juice. From handling the slab (flipped it over this morning for drying), the PdF seems quite soft. I'm going to dry for two more days, then sugar. At that point I'll report back on taste and texture.

Edited January 12, 2009 by cmflick (log)

cmflick · January 14, 2009

Ok, Tri2Cook is right - no way I can get this PDF file shared with you. I can forward a copy of the e-mail with the PDF in it to you if you send me your email address via the PM system. Once this is on the Boiron site it will make it easier to discuss it.
The instructions for the recipes read - place fruit puree and apple juice in a pan and bring to a boil. Slowly sprinkle in the pectin/sugar mixture. Heat gently, stirring constantly until mixture comes to the boil. Add sugar and glucose, add tartaric acid (if necessary). Cook to 107º C or 75Brix. Cool by adding spirits (if desired). Pour into frame same size as your guitar.
(preferably use a non-sterilized 100% apple juice without added acid)
Re when to add the acid - from the discussion in the Journal de Fruit - chef Ollivier Christien discusses fruit paste
1. Acidification consists of reaching a certain pH (3.5 +/-.5) to encourage gelling and give flavour. Here are 3 suggestions for the addition of acid during cooking -i - don't add acid to fruits that are already acidic (raspberry, cranberry-morello cherry, redcurrent, apricot, citrus, green apple, passion fruit. You will avoid adding extra liquid ii - Adding the acid at the beginning of the cooking process will give you the time to pour the mix into a mold (silicone or starch). iii - Adding again acid a the end of the cooking process will accelerate gelling and combine the fruit/acid taste, which is always beneficial.
2. The fruit paste can be frozen, lightly coated with starch and then covered with film (but without dipping in candying sugar). Thaw while still wrapped in film. Once it reaches room temperature, lightly moisten the fruit paste before dipping it in the candying sugar.
3. Try using a refractometer - you will finally succeed with your fruit paste...
4. Ideal storage conditions for fruit paste are 15-18ºC with 60 to 70 % humidity.
←
I tried the new Boiron recipe this weekend. I used the new Boiron recipe for passion fruit PdF using 1000g passion fruit puree, 1000g apple juice, 200g/400g sugar/pectin, 1900g sugar, 400g glucose, 30g tartaric acid. Needless to say, I scaled the recipe way down. Otherwise I'd be eating the same batch of pate de fruit for the rest of the year! The acid was added immediately after the glucose, before cooking to 107C. Boiron suggested using non-sterilized, no acid added apple juice, but all that I could find was pasteurized with ascorbic acid (vitamin C) added. I did use the yellow pectin that I described in a post above. Much to my amazement, the PdF stayed very liquid throughout the cooking and was very liquid when poured into a frame. This would be great for filling silicon molds. I can't comment on the taste or texture yet as they are still drying out. I did cut off a corner yesterday to get a little taste (I couldn't wait!). My first impression was that the taste is very mild compared to most of the PdF that I make. Most notably, the taste seemed much less tart. I suspect that came from diluting the fruit puree with apple juice. From handling the slab (flipped it over this morning for drying), the PdF seems quite soft. I'm going to dry for two more days, then sugar. At that point I'll report back on taste and texture.
←

The new Boiron recipe was pretty much a failure. On the bright side, I have quite tasty jelly for putting on toast. It was way too soft and just fell apart.

I have two theories for what caused the problem. First, it could have been that the apple juice that I used was 100% apple juice that was sterilized. The apple juice said that it was reconstituted from concentrate. I wonder if what the recipe calls for is more like what I would call apple cider. My concern is that the the apple juice may not have had much if any pectin in it, whereas cider might. The second theory is that the recipe just doesn't call for enough pectin. The pectin that I use indicates that you should use 1.0-1.2% for pate de fruit. The Boiron recipe only has 0.875% pectin in it. That doesn't seem like that big of a difference, but it's a 22.5% difference. I usually make pate de fruit with about 1.1% pectin and the consistency is fine. I'm going to try increasing the pectin to 1.1% in the next batch.

On the flavor front, the flavor is very delicate. Usually my passion fruit pate de fruit is very tart and strong flavored. This batch wasn't. It's quite tasty, just very different.

Kerry Beal · January 14, 2009

Ok, Tri2Cook is right - no way I can get this PDF file shared with you. I can forward a copy of the e-mail with the PDF in it to you if you send me your email address via the PM system. Once this is on the Boiron site it will make it easier to discuss it.
The instructions for the recipes read - place fruit puree and apple juice in a pan and bring to a boil. Slowly sprinkle in the pectin/sugar mixture. Heat gently, stirring constantly until mixture comes to the boil. Add sugar and glucose, add tartaric acid (if necessary). Cook to 107º C or 75Brix. Cool by adding spirits (if desired). Pour into frame same size as your guitar.
(preferably use a non-sterilized 100% apple juice without added acid)
Re when to add the acid - from the discussion in the Journal de Fruit - chef Ollivier Christien discusses fruit paste
1. Acidification consists of reaching a certain pH (3.5 +/-.5) to encourage gelling and give flavour. Here are 3 suggestions for the addition of acid during cooking -i - don't add acid to fruits that are already acidic (raspberry, cranberry-morello cherry, redcurrent, apricot, citrus, green apple, passion fruit. You will avoid adding extra liquid ii - Adding the acid at the beginning of the cooking process will give you the time to pour the mix into a mold (silicone or starch). iii - Adding again acid a the end of the cooking process will accelerate gelling and combine the fruit/acid taste, which is always beneficial.
2. The fruit paste can be frozen, lightly coated with starch and then covered with film (but without dipping in candying sugar). Thaw while still wrapped in film. Once it reaches room temperature, lightly moisten the fruit paste before dipping it in the candying sugar.
3. Try using a refractometer - you will finally succeed with your fruit paste...
4. Ideal storage conditions for fruit paste are 15-18ºC with 60 to 70 % humidity.
←
I tried the new Boiron recipe this weekend. I used the new Boiron recipe for passion fruit PdF using 1000g passion fruit puree, 1000g apple juice, 200g/400g sugar/pectin, 1900g sugar, 400g glucose, 30g tartaric acid. Needless to say, I scaled the recipe way down. Otherwise I'd be eating the same batch of pate de fruit for the rest of the year! The acid was added immediately after the glucose, before cooking to 107C. Boiron suggested using non-sterilized, no acid added apple juice, but all that I could find was pasteurized with ascorbic acid (vitamin C) added. I did use the yellow pectin that I described in a post above. Much to my amazement, the PdF stayed very liquid throughout the cooking and was very liquid when poured into a frame. This would be great for filling silicon molds. I can't comment on the taste or texture yet as they are still drying out. I did cut off a corner yesterday to get a little taste (I couldn't wait!). My first impression was that the taste is very mild compared to most of the PdF that I make. Most notably, the taste seemed much less tart. I suspect that came from diluting the fruit puree with apple juice. From handling the slab (flipped it over this morning for drying), the PdF seems quite soft. I'm going to dry for two more days, then sugar. At that point I'll report back on taste and texture.
←
The new Boiron recipe was pretty much a failure. On the bright side, I have quite tasty jelly for putting on toast. It was way too soft and just fell apart.
I have two theories for what caused the problem. First, it could have been that the apple juice that I used was 100% apple juice that was sterilized. The apple juice said that it was reconstituted from concentrate. I wonder if what the recipe calls for is more like what I would call apple cider. My concern is that the the apple juice may not have had much if any pectin in it, whereas cider might. The second theory is that the recipe just doesn't call for enough pectin. The pectin that I use indicates that you should use 1.0-1.2% for pate de fruit. The Boiron recipe only has 0.875% pectin in it. That doesn't seem like that big of a difference, but it's a 22.5% difference. I usually make pate de fruit with about 1.1% pectin and the consistency is fine. I'm going to try increasing the pectin to 1.1% in the next batch.
On the flavor front, the flavor is very delicate. Usually my passion fruit pate de fruit is very tart and strong flavored. This batch wasn't. It's quite tasty, just very different.
←

I wondered if they meant cider too. That's what I think of as unpasturized juice - ferments quite nicely in the fridge if you don't drink it right away. Wonder where I'd get some this time of year?

alanamoana · January 14, 2009

I wondered if they meant cider too. That's what I think of as unpasturized juice - ferments quite nicely in the fridge if you don't drink it right away. Wonder where I'd get some this time of year?
←

go to a new york greenmarket! that's all they have in winter :wink: ...that and pretzels!

Kerry Beal · January 14, 2009

I wondered if they meant cider too. That's what I think of as unpasturized juice - ferments quite nicely in the fridge if you don't drink it right away. Wonder where I'd get some this time of year?
←
go to a new york greenmarket! that's all they have in winter ...that and pretzels!
←

ROADTRIP!!!!

sote23 · January 14, 2009

I have a suspicion that the problem may be that I usually make a relatively big batch (2+kg puree) in a big pan and the outside of the pan doesn't get the heat, only the middle does... It's happened a few times on the induction, but never on the gas...
Finished school in summer 07, now i'm a worker bee at the Trump Tower here in Chicago. Can't believe it's been a year and a half- how time flies right?
←

Serj,

yes, time really does fly, and the older you get the faster it goes.

Luis

cmflick · January 15, 2009

The new Boiron recipes using apple juice are on the web now at Boiron . Click on the "Confectioners" link. There are some interesting recipes for fruit caramels too.

I also just made one of the fruit ganaches (Guava) for molded chocolates from a chart in the "Chocolate Makers" link on the same web page. It was excellent.

John DePaula · January 15, 2009

The new Boiron recipes using apple juice are on the web now at Boiron . Click on the "Confectioners" link. There are some interesting recipes for fruit caramels too.
I also just made one of the fruit ganaches (Guava) for molded chocolates from a chart in the "Chocolate Makers" link on the same web page. It was excellent.
←

Hey, thanks! I thought it might be months before those recipes appeared on their site.

cmflick · January 18, 2009

And the saga of the new Boiron pate de fruit recipes using apple juice continues.

I got hold of some pasteurized apple cider and tried the recipe again (see my post above about using 100% apple juice from concentrate). The pate de fruit were a little firmer this time, but still too soft in my opinion. At least they didn't end up being jelly on my toast this time! After 5 days of drying in my house (where the humidity is very low), the pate de fruits are still a little sticky. The pectin that I use recommends using 1.0-1.2% pectin for pate de fruits and the Boiron recipe has 0.875% pectin in it. I'm leaning towards thinking that the recipe just needs more pectin. The flavor is good, but very mild compared to recipes that I have used without apple juice added.

FWED · January 18, 2009

I had a question about your cooking process. When you cooked the pdf to 107 degrees C did you also cook it to 75 brix? I must admit that I haven't used the new apple juice recipe only the original one from 3 or 4 years ago. When I started using a refractometer and cooking to 75 brix, regardless of temperature, my results were more like what I had expected and I could reproduce them consistently. Just a thought. Here is a photo of the pdf that I made for Christmas. The flavors are lemon, pineapple, cherry, strawberry, and passion fruit.

Edited January 18, 2009 by FWED (log)

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