Eating in restaurants that are dirty or squalid

[Ruby]

How do other eGulletarians feel about eating in a resto/cafe that has decent, cheap food but otherwise has a squalid atmosphere or is downright dirty? How about dining rooms that look clean but bathrooms that are a real turnoff?

From my experience, I find some people don't care about the atmosphere or environment as long as the food is good. Other people don't mind schmutz as long as nothing crawls in their food. They wear it like a badge of honor - 'I'm a true blue chowhound-if the food is good I'll eat anywhere.'

Personally, I'm very aware of my environment and if a place looks shabby or dirty, I get depressed and don't want to eat there. And what about those places that were so popular a few years ago--shabby poor redneck atmosphere that many people liked. What's your take on that?

[tommy]

as long as the food is good and there are no vermin, i don't care.  the Hog Pit, which is mentioned in the Cheap Eats thread which spawned this, is not so much dirty as, say, shabby.  it's part of the vibe.  i wouldn't have it any other way.

great jukebox, pool tables, greasy food.  i mean, you gotta expect some dirt here and there!

although, off-oders i do *not* like.  

[Bux]

One man's fish is another's poison. It all depends. I know people who are turned off by elegance as well as by shabby. I do find that places that used to seem enticingly gritty, often seem depressing today. Maybe I'm getting older. Dirty still doesn't necessarily both me that much if I can fool myself into thinking that it doesn't extend into the food preparation.

[Stone]

One of my favorite restaurants in Chinatown used to be the Ju Hsiang House of Noodles on Doyers street.  One time I brought a friend, and as he was raving about the food, a family of cockroaches (about 4) walked by us on the wall.  We stayed.

The next time I tried to bring a group of peple only to find the place shut down by the Board of Health.

####, I miss that place.

[Ruby]

Quote: from Dstone001 on 2:06 pm on Jan. 18, 2002

One of my favorite restaurants in Chinatown used to be the Ju Hsiang House of Noodles on Doyers street.  One time I brought a friend, and as he was raving about the food, a family of cockroaches (about 4) walked by us on the wall.  We stayed.

The next time I tried to bring a group of peple only to find the place shut down by the Board of Health.

####, I miss that place.

So do the roaches! ;)

[Bux]

Ever eat in a place that was shut down by the Board of Health? I mean shut down while you were eating. I have (and lived to tell about it). What was most remarkable was that the inspectors had finished their inspection before we ate and were sitting at a table in the corner filling our their reports as we dined. It was only while we were on our dessert that one of them got up and posted a notice on the door and then informed the owner that his place was shut down. You might think that having finished their inspection they might have owed us the courtesy of a warning. I felt sorry for the owner, who comped us. Not that he had all that much choice under the situation. From what I could gather they were all minor things, but too many of them. Food outside the refrigerator, the refrigerator off by a degree. I wouldn't be surprised if they caught the chef smoking. The place reopened in about a week. I'd still be eating there if the food hadn't gone down hill and if they enforced the no smoking laws, but if they did that, they'd probably have to make the food better again.

[thereuare]

To mesh threads somewhat, the book Kitchen Confidential mentions (paraphrasing): "check out a restaurant's bathroom, if it's a mess, you can only imagine what the kitchen looks like.  Afterall, the customers SEE the bathroom, they DON"T SEE the kitchen."

As far as i'm concerned, i'll eat just about anyplace in which the food is good, but i'd prefer that it just "looks" dirty as opposed to seeing cockroaches.

Just this week i went to my favorite "bread shop" (where all they make is bread in a BIG brick oven) and while i was waiting for my small loaf i glanced thru the curtain which leads to the baking area and saw a small mouse/rat scurry across the floor.

Needless to say, that loaf didn't taste as good as the prior ones i've had there, but i'm convinced that all places like this have mice (and/or roaches), so i think i'm just kidding myself if i don't go back and choose a (slightly inferior) place to buy my loaves from now on.  I think it's just an accepted fact of living in a city.

I think i recall reading someplace that a certain amount of mouse droppings are actually acceptable to be found in a loaf of bread.

[Ruby]

Quote: from thereuare on 11:58 pm on Jan. 18, 2002

As far as i'm concerned, i'll eat just about anyplace in which the food is good, but i'd prefer that it just "looks" dirty as opposed to seeing cockroaches.

Just this week i went to my favorite "bread shop" (where all they make is bread in a BIG brick oven) and while i was waiting for my small loaf i glanced thru the curtain which leads to the baking area and saw a small mouse/rat scurry across the floor.

Needless to say, that loaf didn't taste as good as the prior ones i've had there, but i'm convinced that all places like this have mice (and/or roaches), so i think i'm just kidding myself if i don't go back and choose a (slightly inferior) place to buy my loaves from now on.  I think it's just an accepted fact of living in a city.

I think i recall reading someplace that a certain amount of mouse droppings are actually acceptable to be found in a loaf of bread.

I've stopped buying muffins from a former favorite shop because, more than once,  I've found long black coarse rodent hairs in the flour. Instant turnoff. The FDA may say a certain amount is acceptable but it's not for me.

Here's a tip for everyone to avoid cockroaches in their own home: Do NOT save paper bags from anywhere. Roaches love them and they don't like the plastic ones. I remember once I was on a bus with a doggy bag from 40 Carrots at Bloomingdale's: a small family of roaches scurried out of the bag. Oooh, yuck feh! Get rid of those brown bags.

[wingding]

'A certain amount of mouse droppings are acceptable in a loaf of bread'??I don't think so...if you are cooking in your own home,does this rule follow?Keeping up with all kinds of infestation is a never ending struggle,but if you are seeing filth with no attempt to disguise it,then the owners don't care,and far worse conditions could exist where you don't see..If the health department closes an establishment at the end of a visit,it usually means that they have made a prior visit,noted violations,and gave the proprietors a certain amount of time to take care of noted conditions.Improper storage of food probably results in more sickness than mouse turds in the long run,but yuck...

[Ruby]

Quote: from wingding on 1:21 pm on Jan. 19, 2002

'A certain amount of mouse droppings are acceptable in a loaf of bread'??I don't think so...if you are cooking in your own home,does this rule follow?Keeping up with all kinds of infestation is a never ending struggle,but if you are seeing filth with no attempt to disguise it,then the owners don't care,and far worse conditions could exist where you don't see..If the health department closes an establishment at the end of a visit,it usually means that they have made a prior visit,noted violations,and gave the proprietors a certain amount of time to take care of noted conditions.Improper storage of food probably results in more sickness than mouse turds in the long run,but yuck...

Hear hear. Couldn't have said it better.

[Pan]

I've eaten in places where the bathrooms have water all over the floor and such. That makes me cautious, but if the dining room itself seemed filthy in such a way that I thought it would carry over to the food, that would _really_ give me pause. All things being equal, I'd just as soon everything were clean.

Another thing: If there's no soap in the bathroom, that's a big red flag! I almost walked out of a Vietnamese place recently for that reason. The employees assured me that there is usually soap there. The pho was actually good, but people subsequently started smoking in the restaurant, clinching a decision not to return there.

(Edited by Pan at 12:08 am on Jan. 20, 2002)

[John Karangis]

I hate to say this but what we dont know wont hurt us.  

Many of us have worked in N.Y. city restaurants and know what the harsh reality can be.  My advice is to always look at what you are eating. eg.  Mesclun or any type of micro greens can have little friends around.  Even if you pay extra to have it washed a dozen times. Don't take anything for granted and hope for the best.

Keep eating!

[Bux]

'A certain amount of mouse droppings are acceptable in a loaf of bread'??I don't think so...

The grim reality is that you have only so much choice. If federal regulatory agencies such as the FDA allow a certain amount of contamination in packaged goods you cannot be assured the aren't there in canned goods, packaged baked goods, processed meats, etc. I don't know that a measurable amount of mouse droppings are allowed in any food, but you can also bet that you can't be sure they're not there, even if no longer in a form that's recognizable.

I've bought packaged flour and put it in an airtight container. If months later there are worms in the flour, you can bet the eggs came with the flour and not from the air. Of course if I had used the flour faster, I'd not find any larvae. It would be foolish to believe that minimally processed organic flour sold in bulk in a health food store would be less likely to have such contamination.

"High protein" flour and "high protein" lettuce, is probably not poisonous and more likely with organic products. It may in fact be less dangerous than the residue of insecticides. A couple of generations ago, I was in a rather nice tapas bar in Barcelona. There were lots of exposed plates of cold seafood, ham, olives, etc on a counter when someone came along with a "flit gun." I assume the flies were the target. We lost our appetite for tapas bars for years to come and in the back of my mind, I'm no more relieved by the absence of insects than by their presence. Cleanliness is a virtue and always an appetizing thought.

[wingding]

Not to be splitting hairs here,but I think that the health laws allow for a certain proportion of rodent hairs,not droppings.Cheerful news,to be sure.Re your Barcelona tapas story;A few years ago while traveling in northern India,and staying in a small hotel in Siliguri,I had to restrain staffers from bombing my room with killer insect repellent twice a day.It made breathing very difficult,and my choice seemed to be death by repellent or being bitten by really persistent mosquitos,which was preferable in the short run.  

[Wilfrid]

How worried should one realistically be in New York about mice and roaches?  I live in a first floor apartment, and we periodically get visited by a roach or two and have to chase them away with sprays.  Currently I have one really annoying, noisy mouse, whose days are numbered.  Yet my Beloved Other Half has prohibited us from dining at a local Chinese restaurant because a roach showed up on the table?  And I being unnecessarily gloomy when I say it's safe to assume that most New York kitchens have a roach or two?

[wingding]

I've worked in about 8 different restaurants in N.Y.,and with one exception,roaches and mice were pretty rare-I've been lucky,and have heard my share of stories. I personally draw the line with rats-if that's a problem,I'm outta there.When we've seen evidence of infestation,we address it quickly,and any problem usually gets eradicated.Conscientious cooks don't like working in the middle of a mess,and hopefully that's reflected in your dining experience.

[Pan]

Quote: from Wilfrid on 11:03 am on Jan. 21, 2002

How worried should one realistically be in New York about mice and roaches?  I live in a first floor apartment, and we periodically get visited by a roach or two and have to chase them away with sprays.  Currently I have one really annoying, noisy mouse, whose days are numbered.

I got one mouse after another in my apartment, so I bought a mouse-repellent device for ฤ from a local hardware store. It's made by Weitech, and it's a little super-tweeter that plays supersonic noise continuously. Rodents can't stand it, and they've stayed away ever since I got the device. I recommend it.

Roaches are a tougher problem to solve. I find sprays deleterious to my health, so I tend to use Combat. I've seen a few roaches in my apartment on and off for the last 2-3 weeks, so it's probably time to get those damned Darth Vader disks again (I _really_ have a visceral dislike for them).

[Bux]

Pan: I find sprays deleterious to my health,

Doesn't everyone? They should.

so I tend to use Combat.

At the risk of sounding like a company shill (I have no connection to the company that makes this product, but I'm a happy user.) everyone should.

I'm really surprised that Combats are not in every New Yorker's apartment. We had a floor in our co-op that was over run--the inhabitants would not spray. Within months of putting Combats all over the building, the problem which was starting to spread, was cleared. This was many years ago and to the best of my knowledge, there's been no reinfestation.

[Wilfrid]

Pan, a big thank you for the mouse deterrent tip.  Although I am unwilling to be overrun by mice, I actually quite like the little scamps (I used to keep various rodents as pets), and am therefore reluctant to murder them.  But my current housemate is driving me insane by chewing stuff in the small hours, so supersonic howling sounds just the ticket.

[Pan]

Quote: from Wilfrid on 12:22 pm on Jan. 22, 2002

Pan, a big thank you for the mouse deterrent tip.  

You're welcome. If you have trouble finding it, I'll be happy to let you know where I got it.

[Rachel Perlow]

Do those high frequency things bother dogs?

[Pan]

Quote: from RPerlow on 8:40 am on Jan. 23, 2002

Do those high frequency things bother dogs?

No, only rodents. That's what the product manual said, anyway. So clearly, anyone who has a pet rat, mouse, gerbil, hamster, or guinea pig shouldn't buy one of them, but I don't think your dog(s) would have any problems.

[foodboy]

The dirtier, the better. I especially like it when my plates and silverware are dirty, and the staff lacks personal hygiene. This tells me the emphasis is on food, not on trying to impress me.