Per Se

[ulterior epicure]

Generalizing a bit, I think that any of the chefs that have four stars from the NY Times devote a considerable amount of time to their flagship restaurants.

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Funny, I think I posted earlier that I've seen Vongerichten, Boulud and Ripert at each of their four-star restaurants the nights I visited. I personally saw Vongerichten and Ripert cooking and plating. Boulud, I did not see in the kitchen - but talked to him on his way to the kitchen from the Bellecour Room.

u.e.

[Vadouvan]

Ultimately my point was supposed to be in a general sense.

Perhaps I did not explain it as well. Lots of people on the internet are predisposed to take philosophical disagreements as anger. Most times I am on e gullet, I am sipping my mojito somewhere in an outdoor restaurant on wireless internet.

First of all, I have a deep respect for TK/FL/PerSe but there is also a lot of romance and hypocricy about the restaurant business. I wasnt focusing so much specifically on Keller but It just happened to be the subject this time.

My point was...........

Food writers, professional and amateur sort of want to convince the public that "that's just how restaurants are written about", I dont always expect the main protagonist chef owner to be actually cooking my food, thats not the point, the point as Philadining said is that doing play by play details of a dining experience by referring to a particular individual who is actually on another continent at the time is a cop out to justify creative writing and quite frankly BS.

Its clearly not universal because I just ate at a bunch of Gordon Ramsay restaurants.

Ramsay in the UK is as big as Keller in the US.

They seem to credit the chefs running the restaurants.....

Jason Atherton at Maze

Angela Hartnett at Connaught

Marcus Wearing at Petrus.....

so i guess its a new york thing, the world ends at the Holland tunnel.

I know the food will still be just as good if the chef owner is not there, clearly this logic doesnt extend to Japanese restaurants......I mean really.....

Why cant I write on my blog that I ate at Sushi Yasuda's bar and Yasuda San did this and did that but Yasuda San wasnt actually there ??????

The sushi wont be any worse but anyone who has eaten there clearly understands the added value and humor of Naomichi Yasuda actually making your food.

If anything the sausage incident at Per Se is counter productive for the Kell-o-philes to credit to Keller.

I bet you he never touched the sausages and clearly from the blog, it wasnt up to a "Keller" standard. Obviously someone in the restaurant effed up the sausages but that doesnt reflect anything about Keller except that despite the best intentions, things arent always made to his standard. He should not be blamed for that.

I think FL and PS are among the best dining experiences in the world, my issue in the end is the selling of romance and BS to the public. Sure they have a video screen, its a brilliant communication tool, people are selling it for more than it is, far as I am aware, you cant check to see if food is over or under seasoned through a cctv network, absent of steam, you cant even check how hot it is or feel the durometer of sausages.

Yeah Yeah...I know, I am getting too technical but in today's world, details dont matter, we just shovel the BS and hope the public buys it.

[Pan]

The discussion of whether or to what extent it's appropriate or accurate to credit or blame the Executive Chef, and how to properly credit those who in most cases actually cook the food, is certainly relevant to the mission of the eGullet Society, but it is tangential to this thread, which is about Per Se. It's understandable how we got off on this tangent, but I think it's time to get back to using this thread to discuss Per Se, so I would strongly encourage anyone to start a new thread in the General forum about who to credit/blame for one's meal in what degree in everyday speech or posting, or in the Food Media and News forum about how and why writers in the media tend to credit and blame the Executive Chef to an arguably excessive degree, while leaving out any remarks about those who actually cook most of the food. If any of you does start such a thread, please post a link in this one. Thanks.

[ulterior epicure]

An exchange on another thread prompted me to ask this:

Does anyone know whether Per Se charges by the bottle (of bottled water), or just a flat charge for water service. The reason I ask is because the water bill, as I remember, on our tab, happened to be equally divisible by the number of diners and the number of bottles (so I was told, as I had lost track) we had consumed...

u.e.

[Bricktop]

An exchange on another thread prompted me to ask this:

Does anyone know whether Per Se charges by the bottle (of bottled water), or just a flat charge for water service.  The reason I ask is because the water bill, as I remember, on our tab, happened to be equally divisible by the number of diners and the number of bottles (so I was told, as I had lost track) we had consumed...

u.e.

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Our experience was that it was by the bottle.

[cchen]

Just came back from Per Se, pics are here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cchen/sets/72057594118090819/

It was an amazing experience. Everything was beautifully executed. A huge plus to the night was that I was with my friend (The one who's going to be working at Le Cirque) and they gave us extra desserts gratis.

[ulterior epicure]

Great pics cchen.

1. So, the Australian Wagyu continues to be on the menu - I'm assuming $100 supplement with 2 people? Is that $100 p/person, or $100 split between the two? I failed to ask when we were there.

2. Who got the creme brulees and who got that yogurt panna cottas? Or did you all get to sample both? At my meal, the ladies received the cremes brulees and the gents received the yogurt...

Glad you had a good experience!

u.e.

[cchen]

Great pics cchen.

1. So, the Australian Wagyu continues to be on the menu - I'm assuming $100 supplement with 2 people?  Is that $100 p/person, or $100 split between the two?  I failed to ask when we were there.

2. Who got the creme brulees and who got that yogurt panna cottas?  Or did you all get to sample both?  At my meal, the ladies received the cremes brulees and the gents received the yogurt... 

Glad you had a good experience!

u.e.

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1. Its $100 for 2 people, so basically $50 pp. I believe that a min of two people have to order it though.

2. They gave them out randomly, but I was able to have both because my friend is lactose intolerant They did give him an extra sorbet in some prosecco-like liquor, though, which was very thoughtful.

[MissAmy]

Great pics, cchen. Thanks for sharing and allowing us to live vicariously.

[tupac17616]

I've got a reservation for next Tuesday night at Per Se. It will be the first time dining there for all four of us, and we are all definitely excited. In the mean time, I've got a few questions I was hoping some of my fellow eGullet-ers might shed some light on...

**I seem to remember a while back hearing about a "2x2" tasting menu, or something like that, in which each diner received a different dish for each course of the tasting. Does this option still exist at Per Se, and if so, is this something I need to request when I call to confirm the reservation of something I would ask for when we get there? Is there an extra cost involved?

**A while back, there was an article in the Times about a non-alcoholic beverage pairing. Has anyone here done that or heard anything about it? How much does it cost? Is it worth it? It's an option I might look into, as I'm only 21, and my wine palate in incredibly underdeveloped at this point, so I don't have much clue as to what I like or dislike. All I tend to drink regularly are sweet dessert wines, and I highly doubt they'll be pairing every dish with, say, Moscato d'Asti, my favorite wine at the moment

**What are the best supplement options? I am sure many of these will be offered to us anyway, but are there certain special requests one must ask for in advance? I know truffles aren't in season now, so that won't be an option. I know about the foie gras supplement ($30, right?). While I tend to prefer seared foie gras, is there typically a clear winner between the hot and cold preparations at Per Se in your opinion? Now I see the Wagyu beef supplement cchen mentions above. But are there any other notable ones to be aware of?

**What are the odds that the four of us might be able to get a tour of the kitchen after the meal, given the fact that none of us are exactly restaurant insiders? Is this something you would recommend I ask about in advance or simply politely ask our waiter the night of our meal?

Many thanks for any help y'all might be able to provide.

[oakapple]

Just came back from Per Se, pics are here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cchen/sets/72057594118090819/

It was an amazing experience. Everything was beautifully executed. A huge plus to the night was that I was with my friend (The one who's going to be working at Le Cirque) and they gave us extra desserts gratis.

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Was this the standard 9-course chef's tasting menu, or a special menu such as a 2×2?

[ulterior epicure]

**What are the best supplement options?  I am sure many of these will be offered to us anyway, but are there certain special requests one must ask for in advance?  I know truffles aren't in season now, so that won't be an option.  I know about the foie gras supplement ($30, right?).  While I tend to prefer seared foie gras, is there typically a clear winner between the hot and cold preparations at Per Se in your opinion?  Now I see the Wagyu beef supplement cchen mentions above.  But are there any other notable ones to be aware of?

tupac.

If I'm not mistaken - there were only two supplement options as I recall from a recent meal. None in our party ended up supplementing, so I can't speak to which preparations or supplements are "the best" - although, even if we did order them, I suspect "the best" involves a lot of personal taste.

Both supplements are printed on the menu. There may be other "special supplements" that I don't know of - regardless, they weren't printed on the menu and they didn't offer any to us if there were.

1. Foie gras for $30: You can have it prepared either hot or cold. They will explain the preparation and accompinaments. It's offered as a supplement to the salad course.

2. Australian Wagyu Beef for $100 (compulsorily split between 2 people): The Wagyu is offered as a supplement to the meat course (last before desserts). Because everyone in my party loved lamb, we all stuck with the regular offering - a pretty generous rib chop from Elysian Fields.

cchen (and others?) can probably speak better to the actual taste of the Wagyu beef and the foie at Per Se.

u.e.

P.S. ccchen, glad to see that they spared you the awful sausage!

Edited April 27, 2006 by ulterior epicure (log)

[oakapple]

**I seem to remember a while back hearing about a "2x2" tasting menu, or something like that, in which each diner received a different dish for each course of the tasting.  Does this option still exist at Per Se, and if so, is this something I need to request when I call to confirm the reservation of something I would ask for when we get there?  Is there an extra cost involved?

Yes, you still hear about people getting the 2×2, and it will cost extra—about $100 per person. As I recall from various reports, you need not order it in advance.

**A while back, there was an article in the Times about a non-alcoholic beverage pairing.  Has anyone here done that or heard anything about it?  How much does it cost?  Is it worth it?  It's an option I might look into, as I'm only 21, and my wine palate in incredibly underdeveloped at this point, so I don't have much clue as to what I like or dislike.

Actually, if you can afford it, a wine pairing is ideal for someone who is still discovering his palate, as you'll receive a range of different wines that you probably would never have ordered on your own.

**What are the best supplement options?  I am sure many of these will be offered to us anyway, but are there certain special requests one must ask for in advance?  I know truffles aren't in season now, so that won't be an option.  I know about the foie gras supplement ($30, right?).  While I tend to prefer seared foie gras, is there typically a clear winner between the hot and cold preparations at Per Se in your opinion?  Now I see the Wagyu beef supplement cchen mentions above.  But are there any other notable ones to be aware of?

The foie gras supplement (currently $30) has been on the menu from the beginning. When I went, they offered us a choice of the cold or hot foie gras (the cold version was on the printed menu). Half the table chose one, half chose the other, and everyone was equally satisfied!! The last several reports have mentioned a Wagyu beef supplement, so perhaps that is becoming a standard, although it wasn't on the menu two months ago, when I was there.

**What are the odds that the four of us might be able to get a tour of the kitchen after the meal, given the fact that none of us are exactly restaurant insiders?  Is this something you would recommend I ask about in advance or simply politely ask our waiter the night of our meal?

I would ask in advance, but my understanding is that they are very accommodating of just about anyone who asks.

[cchen]

I've got a reservation for next Tuesday night at Per Se.  It will be the first time dining there for all four of us, and we are all definitely excited.  In the mean time, I've got a few questions I was hoping some of my fellow eGullet-ers might shed some light on...

**I seem to remember a while back hearing about a "2x2" tasting menu, or something like that, in which each diner received a different dish for each course of the tasting.  Does this option still exist at Per Se, and if so, is this something I need to request when I call to confirm the reservation of something I would ask for when we get there?  Is there an extra cost involved?

**A while back, there was an article in the Times about a non-alcoholic beverage pairing.  Has anyone here done that or heard anything about it?  How much does it cost?  Is it worth it?  It's an option I might look into, as I'm only 21, and my wine palate in incredibly underdeveloped at this point, so I don't have much clue as to what I like or dislike.  All I tend to drink regularly are sweet dessert wines, and I highly doubt they'll be pairing every dish with, say, Moscato d'Asti, my favorite wine at the moment 

**What are the best supplement options?  I am sure many of these will be offered to us anyway, but are there certain special requests one must ask for in advance?  I know truffles aren't in season now, so that won't be an option.  I know about the foie gras supplement ($30, right?).  While I tend to prefer seared foie gras, is there typically a clear winner between the hot and cold preparations at Per Se in your opinion?  Now I see the Wagyu beef supplement cchen mentions above.  But are there any other notable ones to be aware of? 

**What are the odds that the four of us might be able to get a tour of the kitchen after the meal, given the fact that none of us are exactly restaurant insiders?  Is this something you would recommend I ask about in advance or simply politely ask our waiter the night of our meal?

Many thanks for any help y'all might be able to provide.

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There are only two supplements on the chef's tasting menu, the foie gras and the Wagyu beef. The foie was only offered seared, and it was decadent. There was no option for the cold foie gras. The Wagyu beef was the best piece of meat I've ever had. It literally melted in my mouth. That said, the lamb also was very good as well. Since you have 4 people, it might make sense for 2 to get the Wagyu and 2 to stick with the lamb so everyone can get a taste of both.

[chefboy24]

I've got a reservation for next Tuesday night at Per Se.  It will be the first time dining there for all four of us, and we are all definitely excited.  In the mean time, I've got a few questions I was hoping some of my fellow eGullet-ers might shed some light on...

**A while back, there was an article in the Times about a non-alcoholic beverage pairing.  Has anyone here done that or heard anything about it?  How much does it cost?  Is it worth it?  It's an option I might look into, as I'm only 21, and my wine palate in incredibly underdeveloped at this point, so I don't have much clue as to what I like or dislike.  All I tend to drink regularly are sweet dessert wines, and I highly doubt they'll be pairing every dish with, say, Moscato d'Asti, my favorite wine at the moment 

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definitely don't tell them your palette is not developed, or that you like sweet wines.

speaking as a sommelier, to me, i would not certainly not bust out impressive and more expensive wines for you.

just don't really say anything about how much you know and leave the pairing up to them. pay attention to what you're drinking and remember what grapes/styles you like.

the worst thing a guest can say to me is "i want something dry," or "i don't like oak" or "i dont like chardonnay/merlot/" "i like pinot grigio"......those 4 things pretty much instantly make me aware that this guest is not a wine drinker.

without getting specific, you can sound immediately informed about wine if you say something like "i want wine that speaks of a place" or "i want terroir driven wine" or something like "lets stay in france for this evening if possible..."

if i went, personally, i hate wine paired with food (with each course, of a 7 course tasting). you get 2-4 ounces of something, and you never really get to learn that wine. its always best to go from a bottle of white to a bottle of red. or do half bottles.

Edited April 28, 2006 by chefboy24 (log)

[docsconz]

I've got a reservation for next Tuesday night at Per Se.  It will be the first time dining there for all four of us, and we are all definitely excited.  In the mean time, I've got a few questions I was hoping some of my fellow eGullet-ers might shed some light on...

**A while back, there was an article in the Times about a non-alcoholic beverage pairing.  Has anyone here done that or heard anything about it?  How much does it cost?  Is it worth it?  It's an option I might look into, as I'm only 21, and my wine palate in incredibly underdeveloped at this point, so I don't have much clue as to what I like or dislike.  All I tend to drink regularly are sweet dessert wines, and I highly doubt they'll be pairing every dish with, say, Moscato d'Asti, my favorite wine at the moment 

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definitely don't tell them your palette is not developed, or that you like sweet wines.

speaking as a sommelier, to me, i would not certainly not bust out impressive and more expensive wines for you.

just don't really say anything about how much you know and leave the pairing up to them. pay attention to what you're drinking and remember what grapes/styles you like.

the worst thing a guest can say to me is "i want something dry," or "i don't like oak" or "i dont like chardonnay/merlot/" "i like pinot grigio"......those 4 things pretty much instantly make me aware that this guest is not a wine drinker.

without getting specific, you can sound immediately informed about wine if you say something like "i want wine that speaks of a place" or "i want terroir driven wine" or something like "lets stay in france for this evening if possible..."

if i went, personally, i hate wine paired with food (with each course, of a 7 course tasting). you get 2-4 ounces of something, and you never really get to learn that wine. its always best to go from a bottle of white to a bottle of red. or do half bottles.

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Gnerally good advice, although my personal viewpoint is that I like pairings. I suppose it depends on the restaurant though. In a restaurant that I am going to for the food, wine pairings make a nice complement. If the restaurant is more of a primary wine destination I will choose the food to complement the wine. At Per Se I would do the former.

It has been awhile since I have been to Per Se. I believe they did do individual course pairings then, however, I was recently at The French Laundry and they did not. They did have a nice selection of half bottles though.

[oakapple]

definitely don't tell them your palette is not developed, or that you like sweet wines.

speaking as a sommelier, to me, i would not certainly not bust out impressive and more expensive wines for you.

just don't really say anything about how much you know and leave the pairing up to them.  pay attention to what you're drinking and remember what grapes/styles you like.

the worst thing a guest can say to me is "i want something dry," or "i don't like oak" or "i dont like chardonnay/merlot/" "i like pinot grigio"......those 4 things pretty much instantly make me aware that this guest is not a wine drinker.

without getting specific, you can sound immediately informed about wine if you say something like "i want wine that speaks of a place" or "i want terroir driven wine" or something like "lets stay in france for this evening if possible..."

I strenuously disagree with all of this advice. Why on earth would you say "Let's stay in France for this evening if possible" just to impress the restaurant staff? You should say that only if it actually matters to you. And by all means, if pinot grigio is what you like, you should say so. Why would you spend the kind of money a meal at Per Se costs, and then not tell the sommelier your preferences? If it so happens that those preferences brand you as inexperienced, then so be it. Over time, your palate may become more sophisticated; but at the moment, your objective is to enjoy the meal that's in front of you, not to fool the sommelier into thinking you possess expertise that you do not really have.

if i went, personally, i hate wine paired with food (with each course, of a 7 course tasting).  you get 2-4 ounces of something, and you never really get to learn that wine.  its always best to go from a bottle of white to a bottle of red. or do half bottles.

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A wine pairing, if it's done skillfully, will give you the experience of several different wines, usually including at least a few that you most likely never would have ordered on their own. It's an excellent way to discover a wide range of tastes and styles.

Wine pairings, on the other hand, are usually more expensive. After 6-7 glasses, even at 2-4 oz pours, you're probably going to feel like being carried home. It's a wonderful feeling on occasion, but sometimes I forego the wine pairing simply because I don't want to drink that much.

Edited April 28, 2006 by oakapple (log)

[tommy]

the worst thing a guest can say to me is "i want something dry," or "i don't like oak" or "i dont like chardonnay/merlot/" "i like pinot grigio"......those 4 things pretty much instantly make me aware that this guest is not a wine drinker.

i'm wondering, are you actually a sommelier? i mean, i don't like oak, and i tell the wine waiter as much. i've never gotten the impression that they think i'm not a wine drinker because of a comment like that. in fact, if they all do and i just haven't noticed, then they've all get their heads in their asses. i just don't think that's the case, though. in fact, i've almost always been able to have a great give-and-take with knowledgeable and keen wine waiters with comments like "i'm not a fan of oak" and "i like pinot grigio." the best thing you can do, as a consumer, is to communicate your likes and dislikes. it's also the most valuable information that the sommelier has to work from. i've never heard anyone suggest otherwise quite frankly.

but, alas, there are no course/wine pairings at per se or the french laundry in my experience, and from what i've gleaned from the reports of others.

Edited April 28, 2006 by tommy (log)

[FabulousFoodBabe]

I've got a reservation for next Tuesday night at Per Se.  It will be the first time dining there for all four of us, and we are all definitely excited.  In the mean time, I've got a few questions I was hoping some of my fellow eGullet-ers might shed some light on...

**A while back, there was an article in the Times about a non-alcoholic beverage pairing.  Has anyone here done that or heard anything about it?  How much does it cost?  Is it worth it?  It's an option I might look into, as I'm only 21, and my wine palate in incredibly underdeveloped at this point, so I don't have much clue as to what I like or dislike.  All I tend to drink regularly are sweet dessert wines, and I highly doubt they'll be pairing every dish with, say, Moscato d'Asti, my favorite wine at the moment 

**What are the best supplement options?  I am sure many of these will be offered to us anyway, but are there certain special requests one must ask for in advance?  I know truffles aren't in season now, so that won't be an option.  I know about the foie gras supplement ($30, right?).  While I tend to prefer seared foie gras, is there typically a clear winner between the hot and cold preparations at Per Se in your opinion?  Now I see the Wagyu beef supplement cchen mentions above.  But are there any other notable ones to be aware of? 

**What are the odds that the four of us might be able to get a tour of the kitchen after the meal, given the fact that none of us are exactly restaurant insiders?  Is this something you would recommend I ask about in advance or simply politely ask our waiter the night of our meal?

Many thanks for any help y'all might be able to provide.

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Definitely ask for a tour of the kitchen; I generally ask the host/ess quietly, as an aside, while we're being led to the table. It's a beautiful, clean place. Lots of pride.

I've gotten the wagyu and the foie gras supplements (I like the foie torchons best of all; it's personal, but if someone else at the table likes it seared,you can taste one another's -- which we do, often). Worth it, worth it. When I do wine pairings anywhere, I ask that rose-types be either subbed with something else, or just skipped. I'd imagine that would work with you. IF you say you're a novice, I'd imagine they'd love to find you something you'd like, while expanding your wine-horizons.

Have a great time, and do post about your experience! I'm not spoiled or jaded, just particular, and think they do an amazing experience.

[chefboy24]

I guess I need to explain.

First, yes, I am a sommelier in midtown, and have been a sommelier at another restaurant (in the batali organization).

Second, there is a wide range of oakyness in different wines, but by far and away, the worlds greatest wines (white and red) without question have all seen some oak here or there. even in chablis, producers like ravennau, rammonet, and dauvissat use oak, and produce some fucking stellar wines.

So when the average guest, or the vast majority of guests who say something like "i don't like oak," to me, they are just saying this because they heard somewhere that they don't want oak in there wine. (probably because there is a lot of really cheap california chardonnay that is overly oakey and totally forgettable).

further, if someone says to me, "i dont like chardonnay", i could pour them one from california, one from piedmont, one from sicily, one from puligny montrachet, and one from a premier cru chablis vineyard.......and blind, they would not be able to know that every single one was chardonnay. i guarantee it.

so yes while i agree you should give your sommelier information.....there are a few general ways to do this.

you always have full and light bodied. new world vs. old world. (new world wines can be a bit less austere and friendlier, but less restrained, less elegant (generally speaking, overall, there are exceptions obviously)). oaky vs no oak. floral, citrusy, racy, round, complex (for whites). red fruit, black fruit, herby, earthy (for reds).

or sometimes, i'm never really looking for something in particular. i dont really have wine preferences, i like all good wine. but i would prefer to not have sauvignon blanc or sangiovese when i'm out. anything else i'm fair game to experiment, but my general faves are: barolo, barbaresco, chenin blanc, burgundy (red & white), and champagne, and friuli whites.

then of course, there are the pinot grigio drinkers and the sancerre drinkers.

in all my years of working in restaurants, i have NEVER ever seen someone express real gratitutide for my selection of a sancerre or pinot grigio. i have had the best italian pinot grigios and the best sancerres italy and the loire can offer, but not once has a guest ever asked me "oh could you write down the name of the producer?" On the contrary, the only people who put ice in their wine are people who order sancerre or pinot grigio. the reality is, people who order pinot grigio do not even really like the taste of wine, at all. they are the same people who modify every dish, sauce on the side, no dressing, no potatoes, no starch, etc etc. i promise you. these people drink pinot grigio and sancerre because they think they are supposed to.

on the contrary, people have gone stark raving mad about how much they loved their malagouzia or falanghina (grapes i love, bottles that are phenominal for $20).

all i was originally trying to say is that if you don't have preferences because you haven't developed your palette yet, don't let them know that. i don't care if its per se or olive garden........someone pouring you wine isn't going to be adventurous or open some crazy bottle if we know its not going to be apreciated.

because for a burgundy lover, i might just bust out a clos vougout for a pairing with our tuna course if he's nice and well mannered and appreciative (and drink the remainder with the chef, the gm, the pastry chef, and a few captains).......but if a guest tells me he likes sweet wine and pinot grigio, i sure as hell wouldn't do something special for him. and neither would anyone else in manhattan. those are the facts, jack.

Edited April 28, 2006 by chefboy24 (log)

[Sneakeater]

Thing is, you impress people by being impressive. You get people to like you by being likeable.

If you know enough about wine, and you're nice enough, that a sommelier is gonna wanna favor you, that's because of the way you are. If you aren't that way, you're not going to be able to "cadge" favors by pretending to be otherwise.

When I was in my twenties and first learning about wine, I'm sure I said all sorts of things that would now make my teeth curl. It's part of growing up. I probably didn't deserve to get special pours then. I get them sometimes now.

I guess my point is, your goal in life should be to be yourself. Your goal in life shouldn't be to impress midtown sommeliers. Of course, if you can impress midtown sommeliers by being yourself, all the better.

[tommy]

So when the average guest, or the vast majority of guests who say something like "i don't like oak," to me, they are just saying this because they heard somewhere that they don't want oak in there wine. 

so yes while i agree you should give your sommelier information.....there are a few general ways to do this.

you always have... oaky vs no oak.

emphasis mine.

i'm not sure i'm understanding the difference here. when i say "i don't like oak", i'm expressing a preference related to "oaky vs. no oak". if you think that i'm only saying that because i heard it somewhere then i'm afraid you're not going to be serving me very effectively. it sounds like you might have distain for your customers more than a real understanding of why they're saying what they're saying.

at the french laundry, i'm almost positive that i said "i'm not a fan of oak". the discussion, and the wine selections, turned out wonderful.

[Dryden]

It seems to be that that (aside from the fact that this is becoming a separate thread about wine pairing and wine preferences) that if you know what you like, and you like pinot grigio and no oak, you should say something, or else you will get wine you know you dislike.

If you know you don't have much clue, but the couple of wines you have tried and liked have tended to be sweeter and less oaky, you're probably better off trying what comes and really trying to engage the sommelier in a discussion about what you're having and what you're enjoying/not enjoying. At this stage of learning about wine, seeing what you don't like is almost as valuable as seeing what you do, and to have a great guide helping you, so much the better.

Of course, when you start really narrowing down what you like, it makes pairing stuff in multiple courses that much trickier. There isn't exactly a world of variation between white Châteauneuf du Papes (our favorite class of wine).

[chefboy24]

So when the average guest, or the vast majority of guests who say something like "i don't like oak," to me, they are just saying this because they heard somewhere that they don't want oak in there wine. 

so yes while i agree you should give your sommelier information.....there are a few general ways to do this.

you always have... oaky vs no oak.

emphasis mine.

i'm not sure i'm understanding the difference here. when i say "i don't like oak", i'm expressing a preference related to "oaky vs. no oak". if you think that i'm only saying that because i heard it somewhere then i'm afraid you're not going to be serving me very effectively. it sounds like you might have distain for your customers more than a real understanding of why they're saying what they're saying.

at the french laundry, i'm almost positive that i said "i'm not a fan of oak". the discussion, and the wine selections, turned out wonderful.

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i see what you're saying but usually when i deal with guests, it goes like this:

me: hi, can i help you select a wine by the glass?

guest: sure

me: are you looking for a white or red

guest: a white

me: ah huh.

guest: something dry.

me: ??????

i used to then ssomething to the effect of, "light in body, large bodied? do you like oak?"

9/10 times people would say they didn't like oak.

so then i would never pour our piedmont chardonnay or this rioja blanca from allende, which is super peachy, cinnamony, oaky, elegant & phenominal.

but if i said "let me just pour you something i think you will like" and i poured that allende, 10/10 times people love this wine. but its oaky.

so now i just prefer not to bring up the oak thing altogether, unless i'm talking about napa/sonoma chardonnay. where it is expected, and preferred.

[tommy]

i see what you're saying but usually when i deal with guests, it goes like this:

me: hi, can i help you select a wine by the glass?

guest: sure

me: are you looking for a white or red

guest: a white

me: ah huh.

guest: something dry.

me: ??????

i used to then ssomething to the effect of, "light in body, large bodied? do you like oak?"

9/10 times people would say they didn't like oak.

so then i would never pour our piedmont chardonnay or this rioja blanca from allende, which is super peachy, cinnamony, oaky, elegant & phenominal.

that's interesting. when i'm in your position and someone says "i don't like oak", i come up with something and say "perhaps you'll give me the opportunity to change your mind? here, try this".

"ah huh" and "????", i dunno. they just don't seem appropriate in the wine world. but maybe this is all for a different thread.