Per Se

[Jaybert41]

Does anyone know if Per Se allows various people at the table to take tasting menus while others enjoy the 5-course prix fixe?

Yes they will.

Thats because they are Masochists... that fact that a table of three can have three differnt menus in just insasne. Dont get me wrong, I would enjoy seing all of that food, but cooking it is another story...

[blueapron]

Really, I am surprised because it means that they will just be sitting there watching the otheres eat courses in between theirs right? drawing the five out for the duration of the tasting?

OR

Do they serve the five course at the same time as the first five of the tasting ? leaving them at the table with nothing to eat while the tasters get the other 5 or however many more courses

[Jaybert41]

Do they serve the five course at the same time as the first five of the tasting ? leaving them at the table with nothing to eat while the tasters get the other 5 or however many more courses

No, The courses are served in intervals on a split table. There will certainly be a point where one guest may have a blank plate during the the others nine course menu, but they would not get their five course right up front.

[Jinmyo]

A lengthy treatment of Per Se in today's New York Magazine:

http://nymetro.com/nymetro/food/industry/features/n_10410/

Most of this information has been printed several times already, but there are a few interesting tidbits, particularly the VIP comments towards the end.

Keller commissioned a special sink just to cook lobsters, fed by a hose streaming water at precisely 185 degrees.

I love this guy!

[Bux]

To follow up on Jaybert41's post, while it's unusual for a restaurant not to request all of the table to take the tasting menu, many restaurants in France will offer a series of menus with different numbers of courses. Sometimes there are set menus offered with three, four, and five courses. In these cases it's common for diners at the same table to be having a different number of courses. Typically, a fine restaurant will set an empty plate in front of a diner not being served that course. It's mostly formality, but it could be used to share part of someone else's dish. Sometimes the space is just left bare, but the classiest treatment I've run across is when they bring out a small complimentry taste for the diner who was skipping a course. Understandably, a waifish diner who's worried about ruining her diet with three courses while her escort is scarfing down five or six dishes may not appreciate that touch, but I thought it was classy.

[Pan]

I agree. Bringing some kind of amuse while the other diner is having a full course is very classy.

I loved the concluding paragraph in that New York Magazine article:

“You look at the great restaurants around the world, it’s not really about the chef anymore. It’s about building a legacy.”

He [Keller] brightens at the thought. For a moment, those millions of maddening details seem to recede. “Do we need to be so critical about all of it?” he says chipperly. “Maybe we just need to have fun with it. At the end of the day, it’s just food and wine. It’s entertainment. It’s not brain surgery. At a certain point, you have no control.”

Or so says the entrepreneur. The chef would probably beg to differ.

[ellenesk]

Really, I am surprised because it means that they will just be sitting there watching the otheres eat courses in between theirs right? drawing the five out for the duration of the tasting?

OR

Do they serve the five course at the same time as the first five of the tasting ? leaving them at the table with nothing to eat while the tasters get the other 5 or however many more courses

This reminds me of my meal at Pic, a 3 star restaurant between lyon and avignon in the south of France. We had been eating our way through France, and my partner opted for th 5 course tasting, while I could not imagine more than 4 courses. When his 4 course arrived, rather than leave me with an empty plate, the chef sent out several slices of margret.

It was such the perfect touch, it remains one of my most memorable dining experiences(mostly beacuse the food and service were just so superior, not beacuase of the extra course).

[bourdain]

Great article.

[RagallachMC]

My wife and I are going to be in NYC July 3-6 to celebrate our 5th anniversary. One of the disappointments on my honeymoon was my inability to score a reservation at FL, so I was determined to get into Per Se. Got through the reservation line within the first ten minutes on the three days I called, but was told they were full all three times. Massive depression! I left all my numbers, just in case. Glad I did.

I'm at work on May 5th and I get a phone call. It's Per Se and they have a table open at 5:45 on July 5th. I jump on it. After I get off the phone I tell all my coworkers and they are green with envy. I'm not wild about eating that early in the evening, but at least the night will still be young when we finish.

[docsconz]

My wife and I had dinner last night at Per Se with JoeB and Donna. I don't have time for a lot of details right now, but suffice to say that the restaurant prvoed to be a great value. No it was not inexpensive, but it was worth it, IMO, that is to say that it was a great product and great experience. The setting, food, wine and service were all impeccable and yes, we found plenty of "passion". We arrived promptly at 5:30 for our reservation and didn't leave until 11PM. I'm glad that we didn't have a later reservation. While Thomas Keller is back in Napa and it would have been wonderful to meet the man, I have to say the kitchen functioned superbly under Chef Benno's direction. It is impossible for me to say whether Chef Keller's absence made any difference, but any improvement or enhancement would have been remarkeable indeed.

I hope to provide further details and perhaps a few photos later this weekend.

[jeanandpaul]

$633 for one dinner for two people---I don't know very many people who would or could spend this amount! Even for a splurge this sounds like an obsene amount.

What justifies this price?????

[WPep]

$633 for one dinner for two people---I don't know very many people who would or could spend this amount!  Even for a splurge this sounds like an obsene amount.

What justifies this price?????

If you want to experience the upper-tier of fine dining, then this is the price that you pay. No different than paying jacked prices for World Series tickets.

And if you have to ask that question, then maybe it is not for you, yet.

Edited May 22, 2004 by WPep (log)

[robyn]

$633 for one dinner for two people---I don't know very many people who would or could spend this amount!  Even for a splurge this sounds like an obsene amount.

What justifies this price?????

People here in Jacksonville paid $1000/head for front row tickets for the Alabama farewell tour concert here last month. I don't think most were rich. Some maxed out their Mastercards to pay for the tickets. So I guess it's to each his own.

On my part - I figure between $500 and $1000 for 2 people for a dinner at a very important restaurant in a very important city these days. Perhaps $200-400 in a very important restaurant in a lesser city. There are probably a lot of people who can't afford to spend this amount - or don't care to. That doesn't make it obscene. When someone has earned money - he or she has the right to spend it however he or she wants to spend it.

And what justifies the price is expensive ingredients prepared with exquisite attention to detail presented in world class surroundings. Robyn

[Fat Guy]

What justifies this price?????

The restaurant is underpriced. More people want to eat there, and are willing to pay the current price, than there are available seats. They could increase the price by 50% and probably still fill the place. That they do not is Thomas Keller's gift to all of us.

[Fat Guy]

No different than paying jacked prices for World Series tickets.

It's completely different because there are no jacked prices at Per Se. Everybody at Per Se gets the season-ticketholders' price even though the product would be worth more on the open market. There are no inflated scalper/broker rates based on supply and demand. At the World Series, the people with the most money get the tickets. At Per Se, the tables go to those who call first, and everybody pays the same.

[Jinmyo]

What justifies this price?????

The restaurant is underpriced. More people want to eat there, and are willing to pay the current price, than there are available seats. They could increase the price by 50% and probably still fill the place. That they do not is Thomas Keller's gift to all of us.

Actually, that's so.

[docsconz]

Per Se is certainly not overpriced for what one receives. Whether one wishes to debate if the money could be better spent elsewhere is a question for another place. Quite simply one getsvalue here for the dollar spent, even though those dollars are considerable. The space alone is a premium. The tables are large and spaced for privacy. The china, linen and silverware are extremely elegant. The food is of the highest quality and prepared expertly, beautifully and with incredible variety. The service is polished, professional, and efficient, yet pleasantly congenial. The wine list is outstanding and reasonably priced with both wide by-the-glass and half-bottle lists. The decor is elegant, yet restrained and comfortable. The location in the city, premium and the kitchen absolutely state of the art with the proper personnel to utilize it. No, I do not think this is over-priced. I agree with Fat-Guy, this is a gift to NYC.

Per Se is not a revolutionary restaurant. It is not El Bulli come to NYC. It is, however, a very creative way of presenting luxury, incredibly well made foods. I think it is a bridge from the elegant Old World Style restaurants currently failing in NYC and newer creatively cooked and presented cuisine. It is a combination of comfort, intellectual spark and passion.

We sat at our lovely table by the window overlooking Columbus Circle. The view was good, though not incredible. Our table centerpiece, however, was quite beautiful:

My party and I

had a VIP tasting menu at a bit of a premium to the regular menus. We did what the restaurant called a "2x2". That is each person per couple had two different tasting menus, so that each person in the couple could share two different dishes per course. We also had wines paired to the courses. I started with

a Per Se cocktail, that I found to be delicious and not at all overly subtle. The rest of the table had billecart Salmon Brut champagne from magnum.

Our first amuse was the famous Salmon caponets:

These were delightful. I ate mine in one bite so as to mix the flavors and textures.

This was followed by two soups. One was nettle Soup with spring garlic and the second squash soup with pickled squash. Both were delicious, though I preferred the nettle soup. We continued with our cocktails through the soup.

Next up was the caviar, which consisted of the signature "Oysters and Pearls:

and Cauliflower Panna Cotta with Iranian Ostra Caviar:

Both dishes were magnificent, particularly the rightly praised Oysters and Pearls.

White truffle custard with black truffle ragout was one half of the next course, with a pickled egg and perigord truffle "pop tart" as the other half. What more can I say than both dishes were full of truffle flavor?

Mojama (shaved dried Basque tuna) with Melon

and Peekytoe Crab Salad

followed. These were served with Txomin Etxaniz '03, a crisp white Basque wine.

The last of our canapes consisted of Head Cheese , "Cheese and Crackers" and "Veal Oscar" veal heart with crab and asparagus.

This finishes the canapes. Everything was amazing. They now started to bring out bread and butter with the butters respectively from California and Vermont. It is a good thing they didn't bring it out sooner as they were so good, they would have taken up way too much space in our meager but eager stomachs.

By now I put my camera away as the light was changing and we needed to focus on eating the food.

To be continued....

[oakapple]

My party and I had a VIP tasting menu at a bit of a premium to the regular menus. We did what the restaurant called a "2x2". That is each person per couple had two different tasting menus, so that each person in the couple could share two different dishes per course.

How much is the VIP premium? Is it more courses than the usual menu? Did they tell you it was available, or did you know to ask? Did they offer the "2x2", or was it something you requested?

Sorry for all the questions!

[robert40]

docsconz,

Take it easy on a old sickly man will ya.

I'm going Thursday and after looking at those photo's my heart may not be able to take the strain.

Really great photo's !!

You made my day.

[WPep]

No different than paying jacked prices for World Series tickets.

It's completely different because there are no jacked prices at Per Se. Everybody at Per Se gets the season-ticketholders' price even though the product would be worth more on the open market. There are no inflated scalper/broker rates based on supply and demand. At the World Series, the people with the most money get the tickets. At Per Se, the tables go to those who call first, and everybody pays the same.

Let me correct my statement. I should have said that it's no different than paying higher prices for a World Series game than a regular ballgame, because the level of talent and the spectacle of that particular game. It's not a May ballgame, it's a World Series game. It's not a table at a 3 star, it's a table at a 4 star, and a very valuable table at that.

Also, everybody has a chance to get World Series tickets. You have to just wait on line at the right time and wait your turn, similar to calling Per Se at 10:00am or whatever time they start. Yes, there are brokers who take a certain number of tickets, but it is definetly not the majority of the seats. Also, just like any high level restaurant, if you are a VIP or have money, you can bypass that process.

A question for you. If I walked into Per Se, took the reservationist or manager over and handed him a 100 (not so much if I am paying 600+ for dinner) and told them that I was calling the next day, do you think I would have an advantage over those who called and were getting 5:30 or 10:30 reservations, as far as getting prime time seating?

[Jaybert41]

A question for you. If I walked into Per Se, took the reservationist or manager over and handed him a 100 (not so much if I am paying 600+ for dinner) and told them that I was calling the next day, do you think I would have an advantage over those who called and were getting 5:30 or 10:30 reservations, as far as getting prime time seating?

Absolutely not. I guarantee.

[docsconz]

My party and I had a VIP tasting menu at a bit of a premium to the regular menus. We did what the restaurant called a "2x2". That is each person per couple had two different tasting menus, so that each person in the couple could share two different dishes per course.

How much is the VIP premium? Is it more courses than the usual menu? Did they tell you it was available, or did you know to ask? Did they offer the "2x2", or was it something you requested?

Sorry for all the questions!

We didn't actually ask for a VIP tasting, but we did ask for four different Chef's Tasting Menus in order to sample as much as possible. They didn't give us four different menus, thus the 2x2 (2 different menus), but we did get a few extra courses thrown in. In all we wound up with 16 courses instead of the 9 from the chef's tasting menu. Of those 16 courses only three were served the same thing for each person. It was a true tour de force. The upgraded price was minimal for what we received. I do not know whethe or not this offering is something they would do on a routine basis or if we got lucky because we were the first reservation for when they were originally going to reopen or because they know and like eGullet and yes, we did mention we were from eGullet.

I will post on the rest of our dinner shortly.

[docsconz]

A question for you. If I walked into Per Se, took the reservationist or manager over and handed him a 100 (not so much if I am paying 600+ for dinner) and told them that I was calling the next day, do you think I would have an advantage over those who called and were getting 5:30 or 10:30 reservations, as far as getting prime time seating?

After this dinner I consider the 5:30 reservation "prime seating".

[chifoodie]

The most amazing thing about the discussion about price and the value of the meal at a restaurant like per se, is the fact that no one is even mentioning the fact that Per Se could charge double that price and still NEVER MAKE MONEY. This restaurant will certainly generate tons of cash flow, and it will be profitable, but it cost $12 million to develop. Even if that is assumed to be hyperbole, then it cost $8 million. Someone (the developers) had to foot that bill, and it will take a long, long time for them to see their investment repaid. I read once where Keller took roughly 85 people per night at the laundry. If it is a similar number at Per Se, then I would venture that $7.5 million per year gross is reasonable and it will take roughly 9-12 years to repay the developer without the cost of capital being considered.

Per Se is a bargain and it is a bargain of the highest order. Ultimately, it is a marketing tool -- a loss leader -- to sell office and residential space at very high rates.

But God Bless Chef Keller for keeping the price where he has.... it could have been a lot higher.

[Pan]

Does Chef Keller own office and residential space?

Also, how long would it take them to recoup their investment? Any rough estimates?