Steak

[lala]

...i do not think that the height of culinary genius involves toothbrushes, Weetabix, ar anything served on a mirror. Sounds like he's reaching a bit.

but if they used this to showcase the food at El Bulli, we'd all applaud and call it brilliant.

Not necessarily... we're not all under the thrall of the Foam King...

[robyn]

I assume that this policy is not required by law in this restaurant's location. I'm not a smoker. But I thought we might get a rant or two about the policy from a smoker or two. That's all.

I don't rant anymore. I just vote with my pocketbook. That's one reason I picked London for a spring trip. I can eat a high end meal and have a cigarette too in a lot of places. Don't at all mind repairing to the bar to have one - it's being forced out into the street that I mind (last time I was forced out into the street in New York - which I thinkl is where you live - it was from Nobu - and I wound up standing next to a group of rather untidy people who were openly smoking pot - can't say I felt entirely comfortable - or that the attitude about laws in New York made a whole lot of sense to me).

Anyway - apart from a few large cosmopolitan cities - all smoking bans wind up doing is killing lots of lower end to middle of the road local places - and what pops up in their place are tons of "family-friendly" yucky chains. If you doubt this - try eating in Rochester Minnesota. I never quite understood the dynamic. But on our last trip to Rochester - I spoke with a 20 something (I haven't been 20 something for a while). He and his friends used to go out a lot. Local places where they could eat and drink and watch sports and smoke. Now they all own large screen TV's - and rotate from one person's house to the next for dinner instead of going out.

As for high end places - when you get to warmer cities - like LA and Miami - despite "smoking bans" in those cities - all the restaurants scramble to provide outside dining for smokers. It is usually very hard to get those "smokers' seats" outside - even when the inside of a restaurant is empty. Of course - you have to go to a place like Rochester to see what a truly draconian smoking ban does to the restaurant scene.

Anyway - like I said - I am voting with my pocketbook. Hope you'll go out twice as often to make up the slack. Robyn

[SobaAddict70]

Speaking from personal experience, smoking bans are to my mind well worth the lack of patronage by people I'd rather not be near whilst eating dinner or attending a play, no offense, Robyn.

Virulently anti-smoker here.

That said, restaurants and other establishments in cities where smoking bans are enforced will do whatever they need to do to adjust....as will the smokers.

Soba

[robyn]

Smoking bans are to my mind well worth the lack of patronage by people I'd rather not be near whilst eating dinner or attending a play, no offense, Robyn.

Virulently anti-smoker here. 

That said, restaurants and other establishments in cities where smoking bans are enforced will do whatever they need to do to adjust....as will the smokers.

Soba

I am firmly in the camp that it should be up to a restaurant owner to decide how he/she/it wants to run a restaurant. And that's especially true in large metro areas with thousands of restaurants - where the patrons can run from extremely ascetic vegans who don't want their servers to wear leather shoes to people who want to watch sports on large screen TVs while they eat steaks, drink martinis and smoke cigars. I am in the middle of those extremes - but there's lots of room for variations in that middle.

I have never minded having a restaurant owner tell me that he doesn't want smoking in his restaurant. That should be his right. Indeed - I recall eating at restaurants 15-20 years ago where the owner didn't allow smoking. I have minded it when a government tells the owner what he must do.

When governments get in the middle of this - they wind up taking away a lot of personal choices. And so - for every nice locally owned restaurant where I live - I will wind up with 3 Ruby Tuesdays. Innocuous familiar salty garbage food for people who want to get in and out in less than an hour. Type of food I could take out from my local supermarket (I'd rather make a couple of scrambled eggs at home for dinner when I'm pressed for time).

Some places I used to enjoy are gone - particularly the kind of place where you went to have a few drinks - a simple dinner - maybe just a selection of appetizers - and some talk with people you knew. The neighborhood watering hole as it were. From what I read in the NYT - places like this in NYC are also going under - or simply paying the fines when the inspectors make their regular visits.

By the way - when was the last time you remember being able to smoke at a play? I remember smoking sections in movie theaters - but it has to be at least 15 years or more since I've seen one of those. Robyn

[SobaAddict70]

By the way - when was the last time you remember being able to smoke at a play? I remember smoking sections in movie theaters - but it has to be at least 15 years or more since I've seen one of those. Robyn

I don't know, Robyn, as I've never smoked a cigarette or cigar in my life. Joints are another story though.

As for plays, the Delacorte Theatre in Central Park is an open-air theatre and up until fairly recently, you would find people smoking in the benches during performances and intermissions.

I'm sure there are other examples.

Soba

[SethG]

it's being forced out into the street that I mind (last time I was forced out into the street in New York - which I thinkl is where you live - it was from Nobu - and I wound up standing next to a group of rather untidy people who were openly smoking pot - can't say I felt entirely comfortable - or that the attitude about laws in New York made a whole lot of sense to me).

Oh God, here we go again. I think I made it clear in my original post on this subject-- and I was just trying (and failing) to bait Bourdain, anyway-- that I think total bans on smoking are idiotic. In any event, I don't think the subject calls for more ill-informed generalizations about New York or New Yorkers, thanks.

[Mabelline]

Really! I mean we got all the rest of the States we could mess with!!

[Carlovski]

Carlovski- Is Andrews Liver Salts the same thing as sal hepatica? That's pretty odd to be using in the mouthwash, unless he truly is wanting it to be reminiscent of something you gargle and spit out.

Andrews liver salts is a sort of fizzy powder you add to water and drink (Very quickly) to get rid of indigestion. It works very well as a hangover cure, I used to actually like the taste as a kid, very fizzy, with a metallic tang.

[sml311]

"Thursday 11th March: Spring Dinner

· Grilled Scallops, Earl Grey, Fruit Shoelaces, Corned Beef Powder

· Creamy Carrot Soup, Horlicks, Salsify, Black Pudding

· Slow Baked Chicken Breast, Toulouse Sausage, Mustard sauce, Prune Puree

· Assiette of Cheese

· Custard Cream Soufflé, Cough Medicine Sorbet

· Coffee and Petit Fours

£40.00"

Well, now I know what I'm going to do for my birthday dinner!! Scallops and fruit shoelaces?!?! Are fruit shoelaces like fruit by the foot?? Corned beef powder?? Good sandwich, but I wouldn't want to snort it.

Salsify? "I'll salsify you!!" I mean, WTF is this?!?

There he goes on that slow-baking shit again....

And cough medicine sorbet?!! You know what my dad and I used to call Robitussin DM when I was a kid? Dog medicine...

That's all,

SML

[thom]

Gosh... What a lot of spilt bile.

Will keep this brief as I'm going to write a fuller piece of Juniper on the UK Restaurants thread but here goes:

Have any of you eaten there? Well hush up a minute because I have so let me put you in the picture.

Is Paul Kitching a genius?

Paul Kitching is a very clever, if (some may say) slightly eccentric chef. Many industry people whose opinions I respect (Gordon Ramsay being the biggest name) think the man is a genius, and even the mighty Jay Rayner agrees.

Why can't I have a steak?

His restaurant is very similar in its ethos to Heston at the Fat Duck and Adria at El Bulli. Molecular gastronomy is his thing (though he may not like the term) and like the afore-mentioned places it will infuriate as many people as it excites. You may go to Fat Duck to get egg and bacon ice cream, but you wouldn't go asking for a big bloody steak - by going you are submitting yourself to the chef's philosophy, that's the deal and if you don't like it just don't go.

Is it any good?

Depends. I have eaten there and found the experience slightly bemusing. Some of the dishes were staggeringly good, whilst other made me wince. That said I have read similar reviews from respected writers regarding El Bulli and the Fat Duck. I have to say that I found both the menu less structured and more chaotic than I would imagine either EL or FD to be. Dishes existed in isolation, but over the course of a menu some didn't follow on naturally, and certain flavours cropped up too much (curried mayonaises).

I think he is without doubt a very talented chef, and has a Michelin star on that basis (standard of service and decor probably will stop him going to two). He doesn't spend half the year in a lab like FA, or have shed fulls of scientific equipment like Heston, but to be honest his slightly more relaxed attitude shows through in the hard-to-resist sense of fun behind the menu. I think people who have eaten in the FD and EB would place Paul a distant third, but he is still doing some great stuff.

Would it work in London?

Foolish point, and the Mancunian in me deplores the swipe at my home town. Does it even matter? It is actually pretty tough to make a Michelin starred restaurant work outside the SE, particularly one that is so unusual. London is undeniably more competitive, driving standards higher, but running a restaurant outside London has its own problems such as the flow of trade and finding staff. Many 'London' restaurants fail if they try to expand beyong the M25, in the same way that outsiders get their fingers burnt when trying to crack the capital. Either way, whether it would work in London is more down to business model than the standard of the food; Garfunkels works in London, try launching that in Manchester...

I have to say Paul is one of the nicest and most entertaining chefs you could meet; a really lovely guy. He is passionate about food and is trying hard to do something different in a tough location. I don't know how regularly I would return to Juniper; it has its problems with strange decor, and completing the 36 (yes) dishes I had was an exhausting roller coaster it would be tough to contemplate every other week. I think like FD you go there infrequently when you fancy challenging your tastebuds and educating yourself, but sometimes you just need tasty easy food.

Slate Paul if you must, but why not give it a try before hand.

Cheers

Thom

PS Bloody hell, I've just scanned my post and I have no idea where all that came from. I said I would be brief so excuse my extended rant.

[badger0412]

Just a quick note to echo the comments expressed so well by Thom. Unlike the vast majority of posters on this topic I have also eaten at Juniper and would pretty much agree with Thom's comments. I have had a number of great, and sometimes strange, evenings there and will continue to do so. Some of the posts seemed more interested in Paul's use of English than in his abilities as a chef or restaurateur. From recollection, an MA in English was never a pre-requisite to entering the restaurant business. And given the supposed culinary expertise possessed by many of the posters I would have thought it reasonable to expect them to judge a restaurant on the food [tasted] than on its web site.

[thom]

I promise I'm not on Paul Kitching's payroll, but I just had to drop this link in from a prior Juniper thread:

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/food_an...sp?story=377560

It's a lovely article in the Independent newspaper (UK). A simple tale of critic slates restaurant; chef phones and apologises for the critics poor experience and invites critic for another meal to redress the balance; critic has lovely meal but foolishly offers to cook dinner in return; chef accepts, critic wonders what on earth he was thinking...

Gives you a good walk through many of Paul's signature dishes (including the fantastic hare) and also an insight into the sort of down-to-earth guy he is.

Cheers

Thom

[oldschooltie]

"Tuesday 23rd March 2004: Paul’s Birthday

‘Things I like’ - A gourmet celebration of personal ingredients

· Champagne to start

· Cottage Cheese, Baked beans, Pea Puree, Macaroni Cheese, Hollandaise, Egg Mayonnaise, Tuna Fish, Tomato Provencal, Scallops, Haggis, Cauliflower, Dried Fruits, Soy sauce, Tomato Ketchup, Piccalilli, Sorbet, Warm Anglaise, Spices, Custard Tart, Fig Roll, Rice pudding."

enough said

[Suzanne F]

Thom, you make some excellent points. I think what we have here is a Brits-vs-Yanks thing; Brit ethos is to embrace your eccentrics even when they come across sounding like twits, while Yank ethos is to dismiss dreamers (until after they've made lots of money) and look for the "practical" side of everything.

I've never eaten at any of the places where the chef's creativity with all manner of questionable comestibles is given free rein. The closest I've come is Jean-Georges Vongerichten's food, and his raisin-and-caper emulsion, while the height of oddness here, pales by comparison to what all those guys are doing. And to be honest, if I ever did get to eat at Juniper or Fat Duck or el Bulli, I think I'd prefer to just eat without the fanfare of being told beforehand how bizarre it was. What would put me off, as the piece that started this thread did, is the obnoxious writeup (article or menu) that fairly screams, "See what a clever fellow I am, to tease such lovely food out of such unexpected combinations!" (So much for British reticence. ) I'm sure the food is wonderful; it's the need to shock me before I even try it that repels me.

[evilcartman]

...i do not think that the height of culinary genius involves toothbrushes, Weetabix, ar anything served on a mirror. Sounds like he's reaching a bit.

but if they used this to showcase the food at El Bulli, we'd all applaud and call it brilliant.

Not necessarily... we're not all under the thrall of the Foam King...

Thenks, lala. Ferran Adria is obviously a talented and successful guy, but the foam thing is strange.

[marlena spieler]

you know, i like a bit of yeast sauce, and cottage cheese, and i'd even go so far as to think that the corned beef powder might be a bit of a treat, and i like to be surprised and shocked gastronomically a bit, but i mean.....

pureed spaghetti.

marie-rose sauce (ketchup and mayonnaise)

baked beans

weatabix

horlicks

(more and more, but those are the only ones i can remember from the menus at the moment)

i mean we can see that he's being clever and trying to come up with a home-grown british ingredients dazzling menus, a sort of el brit-bulli......

but there is intellectual stimulation and then there is just plain good or bad food.

also, for the prices i too lift an eyebrow at the description: Very carefully cooked (fish).....

and his ignorance about steak and meat is suprising.....

i guess he'd better stick with the pureed spaghetti.

and i'm not trying to be unkind but i feel a certain cynicism in his food...sorry.....

[thom]

Suzanne,

Thanks for your comments. I heartily agree that something in our Anglo-Saxon breeding just makes us Brits take "eccentric twits" to heart. I think we just have to accept that this most English of personality types doesn't always travel so well. Tch, you should try our warm beer...

I also agree that telling you 'how weird' an experience is going to be rather spoils it for me to. It's such a PR-able story though that the hype always seems to get to you first. As I mentioned here and on the thread in UK restaurants I found a lot of Juniper's dishes distracting but it was worth it for the stupendous dishes inbetween.

I suppose it is a story as old as the hills that 'eccentrics' and 'nerds' plough a lonely, and seldom appreciated furrow, at the cutting edge of any industry yet when they (rarely) suceed they it can be profound and magical.

First caveman: "Gracious, is Tarquin putting his chunk of mammoth leg in the fire?"

Second caveman: "Yes, he's a lunatic. Last week he soaked a perfectly good sabre tooth tiger steak in mud. Nutcase..."

Tarquin: "No hang on guys, I'm onto something here, this tastes bloody good."

First Caveman: "I wish he'd shut up I've just dropped my foie gras..."

Etc...

Cheers

Thom

[rlibkind]

But not all beef is good. Rib eye is just a disgraceful, scrappy, chewy, over-rated meat. It’s a cut cheap restaurants use so they can say they’ve got steak on the menu.

This whole string started with the quote from Juniper's web site above. And that's what I'm coming back to, regardless of the relative merits of Cough Medicine Sorbet and Corned Beef Powder.

That man does not know steak!

[tommy]

and rlibkind puts it back into perspective. thank you.

[mrbigjas]

Salsify? "I'll salsify you!!" I mean, WTF is this?!?

Salsify is a root vegetable, sometimes called oyster plant for its flavor, which is kind of oyster-like. It's really an excellent vegetable, with a unique flavor that goes well in soups, in pot pies, or on its own. I love it.

[John Whiting]

I will never eat at Paul Kitchings' restaurant or Paul Valleley's table, but the two vicarious meals in their jointly-written column were deliciously basted with the milk of human kindness.

Edited February 20, 2004 by John Whiting (log)

[Suzanne F]

May we back up to the very beginning again, please?

Will someone please explain to us Yanks what a British ribeye steak actually is? I have a suspicion that once again we are divided by a common language (and by using the same name for possibly different cuts of meat). Our ribeyes are anything but chewy and horrible; they are, after all, what you get when you slice up a standing rib roast. (Entrecote, as it were) So we are taking affront to the serious dissing of what we consider to be a wonderful cut of meat. What is it exactly that Kitching talking about, please?

PS: Jinmyo, I just about 3 feet off my chair when your kitties finally materialized.

[sml311]

Salsify?  "I'll salsify you!!"  I mean, WTF is this?!?

Salsify is a root vegetable, sometimes called oyster plant for its flavor, which is kind of oyster-like. It's really an excellent vegetable, with a unique flavor that goes well in soups, in pot pies, or on its own. I love it.

Thank you!!

I think now that you describe the flavor, I have had it before at a restaurant. The name just sounds like one of those words you make up to insult your friends at age 4!

SML

[tommy]

Will someone please explain to us Yanks what a British ribeye steak actually is?  I have a suspicion that once again we are divided by a common language (and by using the same name for possibly different cuts of meat).

if it's not the same "rib eye" that i know, then i take back my one pithy comment. although, the guy has got to know that claiming that tenderloin is the end-all will certainly get people talking. oh, wait, i think i got it now. (personally, i think filet mignon - is that what he means by "fillet"? - has a rightful place in my diet, right next to all of the other parts of the cow)

Edited February 21, 2004 by tommy (log)

[rlibkind]

That man does not know steak!

Or perhaps he knows it better than conventional wisdom.

I am not sure I agree that he does, but time will tell.

this ludicrous, witch hunt is most distasteful.

Paul, I don't regard it as a witch hunt to disagree with the man's opinions about the relative merits of rib steak vs. filet of tenderloin. I concur that some posters have vented quite a bit, but I don't think you can characterize my analysis thusly. I simply believe he is wrong, based on my own repeated tastings of both cuts.