Sexism in the Kitchen

[Exotic Mushroom]

It's just that women are so damned inferior. Get'em out of the kitchen fast!

There are women who fare well in professional kitchens. However, in my experience, most do not. I wasn't suggesting the women are "inferior," just that they tend not to be well suited to a particular agressive and physically demanding environment.

[Katherine]

It's just that women are so damned inferior. Get'em out of the kitchen fast!

There are women who fare well in professional kitchens. However, in my experience, most do not. I wasn't suggesting the women are "inferior," just that they tend not to be well suited to a particular agressive and physically demanding environment.

Since women do plenty of "aggressive and physically demanding jobs", what is it about the kitchen to which most of them are intrinsically unsuited?

[Exotic Mushroom]

Well, I already stated my two main complaints in my first post, but I'll repeat them if you need me to.

First, I find that women are often physically unable to perform the neccessary tasks before them. For one, most of them can't lift things. They can't help put things away because the boxes are too heavy. They can't lift heavy pots. And so on. It's irritating. These are things that everyone in the kitchen needs to be able to do. If they can't, it becomes a problem.

My other main issue is that they get upset too easily. When they are criticized, they cry. They get treated the exact same way as everyone else, but are too thin skinned to handle it.

As I have said before, this certainly does not apply to all women. But it has been my experience with the vast majority of women I have encountered in kitchens, and it has been consistent enough to cause me to form a low opinion of women cooks as a group. That said, I am happy to reverse my initial skepticism when a co-worker proves herself to be capable.

I'm not trying to be hostile or inflammatory. I honestly think that this is a useful point of view to consider in a discussion of sexism in kitchens. Maybe it's there (to some extent at least) because it's warranted.

[robyn]

There are women who fare well in professional kitchens. However, in my experience, most do not. I wasn't suggesting the women are "inferior," just that they tend not to be well suited to a particular agressive and physically demanding environment.

Could you please describe to me what a "particularly aggressive" environment is?

If it's like the environment when I first started to practice law 30 years ago - it means a lot of guys making suggestive sexual comments - snide remarks about how I was unsuited to do what I was trying to do - and otherwise being crude and making me feel like I wasn't welcome. In other words - I had to put up with a lot of crap. I would have sincerely hoped that by now - 30 years later - women wouldn't have to put up with this stuff in any type of workplace - whether it's a courtroom or a kitchen - but I guess they still do.

As for physically demanding - I'm sure there are women who are capable of the physical demands - and others who are not. Just like some women are capable of being fire fighters or soldiers - and others aren't. But I suspect that for most women who wind up in professional kitchens - the emotional stuff is harder to deal with than huge pots of stock.

By the way - I've seen some parts of classes given at a local cooking school for Navy personnel - where you're dealing with really massive cooking requirements - and equipment. These are the people who are learning to cook on ships - including carriers that house 5000 sailors at a time. The kitchenaid mixer is almost as tall as I am. And the women who are in that program don't seem to have any unusual problems - perhaps because military discipline and protocol require that a modicum of professional respect be accorded to the people who are working with you. Robyn

[Exotic Mushroom]

Could you please describe to me what a "particularly aggressive" environment is?

I said "particular", not "particularly." As in "specific". I'm certain many work environments are equally or more agressive. But each of them are so in their own specific way. And I'm just suggesting that maybe people should consider that this is a specific environment where women tend to not perform as well as men. I'm not making any judgements about women's inferiority in general.

[robyn]

First, I find that women are often physically unable to perform the neccessary tasks before them. For one, most of them can't lift things. They can't help put things away because the boxes are too heavy. They can't lift heavy pots. And so on. It's irritating. These are things that everyone in the kitchen needs to be able to do. If they can't, it becomes a problem.

My other main issue is that they get upset too easily. When they are criticized, they cry. They get treated the exact same way as everyone else, but are too thin skinned to handle it.

Can you please describe a typical physical thing a typical woman can't do. I'm just curious. I'm close to 60 - 5 feet tall. I can lift maybe a 40 pound bag (of birdseed - salt for the water softener - etc). My husband - who's older but taller - can do 60 - or 80 if he feels like throwing his back out . I know younger stronger guys like some of the workers who come to our house can do 80 without a problem. What's a typical kitchen lifting task? How heavy are the pots (I can do about 12 quarts without a sweat - but - in a home kitchen - have never done anything bigger)?

And again - just curious - what are the kinds of things you said that made the women cry? Robyn

[beans]

Whoa one gosh darned minute! Sorry I've jumped into this, perhaps a bit late, but I've got to step up to these gross generalisations as I find them on the whole as that -- gross. Isn't the world a much easier place within which to function when one creates nice, neat, tidy little package(s) and when one can summarily tie all preconceived notions and sweeping generalisations into small pigeonholes?

First, I find that women are often physically unable to perform the neccessary tasks before them.

Thank heavens I do not work with that sort of caveman mentality.

Yes, I currently do pull heart of the house shifts as well as my bartending shifts. They are nothing that I'd consider easy and I first start out slinging the largest A sized lexan over my shoulder, almost overflowing with ice (an easy 75+ pounds) to only half way fill my ice well. Then, I set up large 48" rounds and often carry them up flights of stairs as well as the stacks of chairs and umbrellas. Did I mention the hauling around multiple cases of beer to restock???

Me to worry about a few pots or pans? PLEASE.

If I couldn't handle it on the first day, by golly I worked all the harder to have that requisite physical endurance and stamina. And mind you that is only the beginning of a 12 hour day running non-stop (in season, I do not have days off and nearly work straight doubles). Is that physically demanding enough? Welcome to my world. And I'll tell you, what I do FOH is much more strenuous than anything I've done wearing a chef's coat. [Our line is air conditioned to quite comfortable temperatures -- one hell of a lot better than the glaring direct sun, heat and humidity taxing upon my every movement. Plus, those same line cooks are steps away from the freezer walk in. Me? I can grab an icecube and throw it down my shirt if that is what I deemed to be adequate relief -- I'd take the walk in while slinging steaks, burgers and what not in air conditioning any day or night].

As to the rest of your post about crying, I've cut my teeth in the food and beverage industry with women that were tougher than I could imagine, were they dominated both FOH and BOH staff and never flinched to make anyone cry. (most often men because none of the women dared to do so)

But yet you continue....

I'm not trying to be hostile or inflammatory. I honestly think that this is a useful point of view to consider in a discussion of sexism in kitchens. Maybe it's there (to some extent at least) because it's warranted.

If anyone, a man or woman, cannot handle the physical demands of working within a food and beverage establishment, then they best shape up and do so quickly. Yes in my experience, I have seen women not cut out for the job, but I've seen my share of fellas too.

Ease up on such offensive platitudes, open up the myopic, limited point of view and predisposition. It really is not attractive.

Yes sexism exists, but so does respect. Earn respect and the stereotypes fail -- or possibly placates/further inferiorates those that are threated by same?

[cjs]

Well Mr. Man, it may have been Your experience that the vast majority of women can't cut it in the kitchen, but in my years in the kitchen, I've seen just as many, if not more, Men lose it when the shit hits the fan during a particularly crazy rush.

Granted I've seen more tears out of the women, but usually just with the younger ones, and we all have to start somewhere. The ones who are any good get over it and the ones who don't go into sales.(ha)

[Exotic Mushroom]

Can you please describe a typical physical thing a typical woman can't do.

As far as the physical requirements, I'm not sure exactly how much things weigh. Well, we usually get 50 pound boxes of bones. Other parts of our order are heavier. Pots filled with liquid are a lot heavier. You're on your feet working for 12, 14 hours a day. It's pretty physically demanding.

And again - just curious - what are the kinds of things you said that made the women cry?

I personally don't think I've ever made a co-worker cry. But I am not talking about women breaking down into tears over offensive sexual remarks or personal insults. I'm talking about simple criticism (which tends to take the form of yelling and screaming) that everyone is subjected to when they aren't performing up to expectations. Being yelled at for being too slow, or for preparing something wrong, for example.

The thing is, there's no reason I can see that most women shouldn't be capable of performing these tasks. I manage. My point is that for whatever reason, most of them can't (or don't). Why don't they lift weights at home so they'll be stronger? I don't know. Why don't they just try to hold back the waterworks until they get home? I don't know. But I think that the fact that many women act like they're entitled to special (nicer) treatment because of the gender is a big part of the reason there is sexism in kitchens. It's borne of experience.

And the women who are in that program don't seem to have any unusual problems - perhaps because military discipline and protocol require that a modicum of professional respect be accorded to the people who are working with you.

This is a two way street. Perhaps the women in that program behave with the same levels of professionalism that are expected of everyone else. Thus, they are treated equally.

[Exotic Mushroom]

Okay, clearly people are more interested in taking personal offense or leaping to conclusions than taking even a moment to consider an opinion on what might be source of what is percieved by many to be a serious problem in the restaurant industry.

I simply tried to suggest that perhaps the reason kitchen workers tend to have an attitude about women is because in their experience, women don't perform up to par. And while there are many who can, they are expected to prove themselves the exception before being accepted.

I didn't have an attitude towards women cooks when I started. It's something I've developed over years of seeing them come, fail, and then leave. I have a great deal of respect for those who do perform up to par, but as I've said, I've found them to be the minority.

Well Mr. Man, it may have been Your experience that the vast majority of women can't cut it in the kitchen

Just for the record, I'm female and 5 feet tall. And I'm going to bow out of this discussion now. It doesn't seem very productive.

[beans]

Okay, clearly people are more interested in taking personal offense or leaping to conclusions than taking even a moment to consider an opinion on what might be source of what is percieved by many to be a serious problem in the restaurant industry.

I simply tried to suggest that perhaps the reason kitchen workers tend to have an attitude about women is because in their experience, women don't perform up to par. And while there are many who can, they are expected to prove themselves the exception before being accepted.

I didn't have an attitude towards women cooks when I started. It's something I've developed over years of seeing them come, fail, and then leave. I have a great deal of respect for those who do perform up to par, but as I've said, I've found them to be the minority.

Well Mr. Man, it may have been Your experience that the vast majority of women can't cut it in the kitchen

Just for the record, I'm female and 5 feet tall. And I'm going to bow out of this discussion now. It doesn't seem very productive.

Oh, I'm not personally offended, but I do believe your generalised statements to be inaccurate, in my own experience or have personally witnessed.

And I can step out of the box and assert those same generalised statements may indeed be found offensive.

Where I work, there are no indulgences for "the fairer sex." You do your job in the same manner as anyone else is expected to do same.

For asserting something so bold as to state and summarily dismiss women as being unable to perform in a kitchen position effectively is doing a tremendous disservice to oneself, one's co-workers and the kitchen and restaurant.

edit: clarity

Edited February 5, 2004 by beans (log)

[MobyP]

If a woman complains about sexism, what does she hear? Just as in this thread, that she deserves what she got for being uppity, that she's imagining the hazing, assaults, and verbal abuse are sexual in nature.

I think either you haven't been paying attention to the strong, incredibly talented women chefs who idict this person for making this an accusation of sexism, or perhaps you didn't read the article.

No one has said "she's imagining the hazing, assaults, and verbal abuse."

Also,

You can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Hehe...slut.

if you're ascribing misogynistic motives to anyone who critiques her position, that is in itself both misanthropic and misogynistic, and I would suggest you consider your position before making those kinds of comments on this board again.

This is obviously an emotive issue. I thank everyone for keeping it (moderately) civil.

[Scott]

If a woman complains about sexism, what does she hear? Just as in this thread, that she deserves what she got for being uppity, that she's imagining the hazing, assaults, and verbal abuse are sexual in nature.

Do I understand you correctly?

That anytime a woman complains of sexism, that it is naturally and intrisically correct??????

That if it is refuted that is just another level of the misogynistic empire laying down the smack?

I would never deny these things happen, and certainly discrimanatory stratifications are made in many fields based on numerous criteria, but surely the primacy of accuracy in accusation must be paramount. Rather than as an excuse not to look inwards.

maybe I have misunderstood you, but I read your tone not at all favourably.

[robyn]

As far as the physical requirements, I'm not sure exactly how much things weigh. Well, we usually get 50 pound boxes of bones. Other parts of our order are heavier. Pots filled with liquid are a lot heavier. You're on your feet working for 12, 14 hours a day. It's pretty physically demanding.

I personally don't think I've ever made a co-worker cry. But I am not talking about women breaking down into tears over offensive sexual remarks or personal insults. I'm talking about simple criticism (which tends to take the form of yelling and screaming) that everyone is subjected to when they aren't performing up to expectations. Being yelled at for being too slow, or for preparing something wrong, for example.

The thing is, there's no reason I can see that most women shouldn't be capable of performing these tasks. I manage. My point is that for whatever reason, most of them can't (or don't). Why don't they lift weights at home so they'll be stronger? I don't know. Why don't they just try to hold back the waterworks until they get home? I don't know.  But I think that the fact that many women act like they're entitled to special (nicer) treatment because of the gender is a big part of the reason there is sexism in kitchens. It's borne of experience.

Well - you have had your own personal experiences - and you generalize from them. Which is a fair thing to do. If I wanted to work as a chef - my expectation would be that I'd have to sling around bags of stuff that were as heavy or heavier than the bags of stuff I sling around in my garden (40-50 pounds). If I didn't have the requisite upper body strength - I'd try to acquire it. Did you find that most men you ran across "made the cut"?

As for 12-14 hour days - I had to do them in high heels. I would have been a happier camper in chef's clogs .

When it comes to crying - I think perhaps that that is just a cultural/sexual thing. Women cry and men go home and ?????? I don't see anything wrong with crying as an emotional response.

You said you're a woman about my size - and I'm curious how old you are. Sometimes I've found that woman who had to prove themselves way back when are sometimes too tough on other women (I've been guilty of that myself sometimes). It's kind of like older doctors. They think that because they went through ridiculous residencies (e.g., no sleep for a couple of days) - every other doctor who comes down the pike should have to do it too (even if it's a really bad idea). Robyn

[beans]

It's kind of like older doctors. They think that because they went through ridiculous residencies (e.g., no sleep for a couple of days) - every other doctor who comes down the pike should have to do it too (even if it's a really bad idea).

robyn -- have you ever head of the expression of the brigade system used in reference to commercial, restaurant kitchens?

[robyn]

It's kind of like older doctors.  They think that because they went through ridiculous residencies (e.g., no sleep for a couple of days) - every other doctor who comes down the pike should have to do it too (even if it's a really bad idea).

robyn -- have you ever head of the expression of the brigade system used in reference to commercial, restaurant kitchens?

No I haven't - what is it? Robyn

[Exotic Mushroom]

If I didn't have the requisite upper body strength - I'd try to acquire it.

This, to me, seems like the logical response to finding oneself in a situation where one is too weak or has too little endurance to meet the demands of one's professional environment. It's what I did. And that's exactly what frustrates me about many women kitchen workers and what I believe contributes to the sexist attitude of the industry. They don't. They expect people to make allowances for them because they're girls, and girls just aren't as strong. I've consistently come across this bizarre attitude of entitlement from women who seem to think they shouldn't be held to the same physical standards as everyone else simply because of their gender. They want to be treated differently. And so they are, but not in the way they want.

Did you find that most men you ran across "made the cut"?

I'd generalize based on my experience (which may differ from others') that the men who have difficulty with the physical requirements of the job tend to be far outnumbered by the women. Maybe it's because men don't feel like they have the "I'm a girl, so I'm not very strong" excuse to fall back on, so they see no other option than to acquire the strength and endurance expected of them.

When it comes to crying - I think perhaps that that is just a cultural/sexual thing. Women cry and men go home and ?????? I don't see anything wrong with crying as an emotional response.

There's nothing wrong with crying as an emotional response. God knows I've cried over being reprimanded. There's been times when I've barely made it down the block after leaving work before I burst into tears. But I don't do it while I'm working.

I belive you said you were a lawyer. Surely you wouldn't start sobbing in court, or in a meeting when something upset you? You would suck it up and do your job, then wait until you were back in your office or until you got home to shed some tears. It's the same thing. You can't start crying in the kitchen because things don't go you way anymore than you can start crying in any other workplace. It's unprofessional.

and I'm curious how old you are

I'm in my late twenties, and I've been cooking professionally for about 12 years now.

Sometimes I've found that woman who had to prove themselves way back when are sometimes too tough on other women

The thing is, it's not that I had to prove myself way back when. It's that I have to prove myself all the time. Every time I go someplace new to work, I have to start all over and prove that I'm not that wimpy girly girl. Every time someone new joins our team, I'm the one who has to show them that I deserve respect.

And I don't resent any of my co-workers for taking that attitude towards me, because I understand why they have it. I've developed it myself. I admit to being suspect of women co-workers, but I think that I have good reason to be based on experience. It's certainly not that I believe women are incapable of being cooks. There's just some mystery reason why most of them aren't.

What I do resent is the many women who I believe are responsible for causing this attitude. Why don't they work harder to fight to disprove the stereotype? That's the only way to we'll ever overcome it. But apparently girls will go on being girly girls, men will go on continuing to assume they're girly girls who can't pull their weight, and nothing's ever going to change.

[beans]

It's kind of like older doctors.  They think that because they went through ridiculous residencies (e.g., no sleep for a couple of days) - every other doctor who comes down the pike should have to do it too (even if it's a really bad idea).

robyn -- have you ever head of the expression of the brigade system used in reference to commercial, restaurant kitchens?

No I haven't - what is it? Robyn

Here's a brief explanation in a nice nutshell.

[robyn]

If I didn't have the requisite upper body strength - I'd try to acquire it.

This, to me, seems like the logical response to finding oneself in a situation where one is too weak or has too little endurance to meet the demands of one's professional environment. It's what I did. And that's exactly what frustrates me about many women kitchen workers and what I believe contributes to the sexist attitude of the industry. They don't. They expect people to make allowances for them because they're girls, and girls just aren't as strong. I've consistently come across this bizarre attitude of entitlement from women who seem to think they shouldn't be held to the same physical standards as everyone else simply because of their gender. They want to be treated differently. And so they are, but not in the way they want.

Did you find that most men you ran across "made the cut"?

I'd generalize based on my experience (which may differ from others') that the men who have difficulty with the physical requirements of the job tend to be far outnumbered by the women. Maybe it's because men don't feel like they have the "I'm a girl, so I'm not very strong" excuse to fall back on, so they see no other option than to acquire the strength and endurance expected of them.

When it comes to crying - I think perhaps that that is just a cultural/sexual thing. Women cry and men go home and ?????? I don't see anything wrong with crying as an emotional response.

There's nothing wrong with crying as an emotional response. God knows I've cried over being reprimanded. There's been times when I've barely made it down the block after leaving work before I burst into tears. But I don't do it while I'm working.

I belive you said you were a lawyer. Surely you wouldn't start sobbing in court, or in a meeting when something upset you? You would suck it up and do your job, then wait until you were back in your office or until you got home to shed some tears. It's the same thing. You can't start crying in the kitchen because things don't go you way anymore than you can start crying in any other workplace. It's unprofessional.

and I'm curious how old you are

I'm in my late twenties, and I've been cooking professionally for about 12 years now.

Sometimes I've found that woman who had to prove themselves way back when are sometimes too tough on other women

The thing is, it's not that I had to prove myself way back when. It's that I have to prove myself all the time. Every time I go someplace new to work, I have to start all over and prove that I'm not that wimpy girly girl. Every time someone new joins our team, I'm the one who has to show them that I deserve respect.

And I don't resent any of my co-workers for taking that attitude towards me, because I understand why they have it. I've developed it myself. I admit to being suspect of women co-workers, but I think that I have good reason to be based on experience. It's certainly not that I believe women are incapable of being cooks. There's just some mystery reason why most of them aren't.

What I do resent is the many women who I believe are responsible for causing this attitude. Why don't they work harder to fight to disprove the stereotype? That's the only way to we'll ever overcome it. But apparently girls will go on being girly girls, men will go on continuing to assume they're girly girls who can't pull their weight, and nothing's ever going to change.

Exotic Mushroom - What I hear you saying is simple. A lot of kitchen work requires a fair amount of upper body strength. Unfortunately - it is a fact of life that women - on the whole - don't have as much upper body strength as men of similar size. Plus - they tend to be smaller. If anyone doubts me about this because I'm a lawyer - I'm also a pretty good tennis player. I know a lot about the game. Upper body strength or the lack of it is evident - and important - in tennis. The strongest women aren't anywhere close to the strongest men. Also - for an emotionally satisfying and poignant story about upper body strength in women - see the movie "An Officer and A Gentlemen" - where the female officer in training had a heck of a time learning to "climb the wall".

So it's similar to women wanting to do other jobs where upper body strength is important - like being a fireman. The difference being that a fireman without sufficient upper body strength can endanger the lives of others - whereas an aspiring chef mostly pisses off co-workers.

So - I understand what you're saying. But I am just a bit surprised that many of the women you've encountered in the workplace aren't dealing with this in a constructive way - which is not - as you've stated - with a sense of entitlement (in my opinion). Since I've never worked in a kitchen before - I can't draw on my own experiences. But if what you say is true - it's sad. On the other hand - I haven't encountered many women gardeners (where upper body strength is also important). Perhaps women think that they can side-step the physical job requirements of a job since it involves being in a workplace like a kitchen. I don't know. I'm curious what other people think about this?

As for crying - I have only cried on the job twice. The first time was when I was very young. A judge said that because I demanded a jury trial for my client in a silly who hit John case in a parking lot argument - my client (a state worker) would go to jail (as opposed to a probation type thing) if the jury found her guilty. We both had a cry over that in the conference room. Then we went out in front of the jury - and got a not guilty. The other time was when some SOB judge held me in contempt and threw me in jail for doing something on behalf of a client that I thought was the thing to do. Jail is a really lousy place. Luckily - I recovered enough to make my one phone call. I called a friend who was the best criminal lawyer I knew! And he got me out. I don't regret crying either time. But it wasn't an everyday thing for me. Robyn

[robyn]

It's kind of like older doctors.  They think that because they went through ridiculous residencies (e.g., no sleep for a couple of days) - every other doctor who comes down the pike should have to do it too (even if it's a really bad idea).

robyn -- have you ever head of the expression of the brigade system used in reference to commercial, restaurant kitchens?

No I haven't - what is it? Robyn

Here's a brief explanation in a nice nutshell.

Hi Beans - Thanks for the link. I wasn't familiar with the word - but I am familiar with the concept - both in its full blown form from eating in fancy restaurants in France - and its lesser form(s) from eating in simpler restaurants elsewhere (and just about every restaurant in the world is more simple than a 3 star restaurant in France ).

By the way - I recall one 3 star restaurant in France that had full length windows in its kitchen facing to an outside walkway. So when you woke up in the morning (it was a restaurant with rooms) - you could walk outside and see the start of preparations for the evening meal (like the fellow at the bottom of the totem pole who was just hulling strawberries). Pretty amazing stuff. Robyn