Who Gets the Wine List?

[Craig Camp]

"Women are not getting the menus. They're ordering the wine and then the taste comes back to the fella," said Cecile Giannangeli, president of online wine source FineWine.com and owner of two wine stores in the Washington, D.C., area.

[Mark Sommelier]

OK, I'm going to jump in first. Personally, I HATE HATE HATE this crap about woman or man looking at the wine list. Both sexes ask me questions every night. Some of them are stupid questions, others are more informed. They cannot be allocated to sexes. Yes, there are as many stupid guys out there as........ welll, you get the drift. I don't consider myself a snob, but I do have several conceits. I'm in a French restaurant, so I don't have a pinot grigio. This gets asked for every night.

Edited January 16, 2004 by Mark Sommelier (log)

[Pan]

What I'd like to know is why a French restaurant even offers a pinot grigio.

[Craig Camp]

We have a load of threads on Pinot Grigio let's try to keep this one on the actually topic of sexism in wine service.

The short answer to both of you is that there are excellent, good, bad and indifferent Pinot Grigio wines. The excellent ones deserve respect just like other excellent white wines.

[Pan]

I often like pinot grigio and sometimes don't, which is more or less in line with what you wrote above; it's just that I wouldn't think of having an Italian wine with a French meal. Perhaps that shows ignorance on my part, but nevermind, we can discuss this tangent elsethread.

My opinion about this wine list thing? Bring two to a couple. Give one to the woman and one to the man (if it's a heterosexual couple, of course). Simple, no? If you don't have enough wine lists, get more copied! There's no excuse for the bullshit the article exposes.

If I were out with a woman friend and I was ostentatiously presented with the wine list while none was given to my dining partner, I might lower my tip. I consider it just plain rude and disrespectful.

Edited January 16, 2004 by Pan (log)

[KatieLoeb]

OK, I'm going to jump in first. Personally, I HATE HATE HATE this crap about woman or man looking at the wine list. Both sexes ask me questions every night. Some of them are stupid questions, others are more informed. They cannot be allocated to sexes. Yes, there are as many stupid guys out there as........ welll, you get the drift. I don't consider myself a snob, but I do have several conceits. I'm in a French restaurant, so I don't have an pinot grigio. This gets asked for every night. This is the one thing I am a snob about. Drink that  somewhere else please!!

edited to remove the MULTIPLE EXPLETIVES.

an example: FUCK PINOT GRIGIO

So Mark. Don't mince words. Tell us how you really feel...

No really, I understand this completely. If one more bubble-headed amateur twit asks me for a glass of White Zinfandel (Do you see White Zinfandel on the list in your hand?? Can you read???!!!???) I'm getting the automatic, not the shotgun!

[...tm...]

I don't dine at a lot of high-priced restaurants and I must confess that I've never consulted swith a sommelier but...I'm usually more opinionated than my male dining companions when it comes to wine. I haven't made much note of who is "presented" with the wine list, but I will say that every time I have ordered the server has presented me with the taste before accepting the bottle. Even in places that could barely get the orders right. I don't know if I have had incredibly good luck with perceptive but incompitent servers or whether many of my good servers have had bad luck with the kitchen.

C

And on a side note, I am a scientist. While I know that NaCl (table salt) is neutral, I found Katie Loeb, a wine professional, informative and helpful on the subject of how wines work with food. Thanks, everyone.

[Carlovski]

OK, I'm going to jump in first. Personally, I HATE HATE HATE this crap about woman or man looking at the wine list. Both sexes ask me questions every night. Some of them are stupid questions, others are more informed. They cannot be allocated to sexes. Yes, there are as many stupid guys out there as........ welll, you get the drift. I don't consider myself a snob, but I do have several conceits. I'm in a French restaurant, so I don't have an pinot grigio. This gets asked for every night. This is the one thing I am a snob about. Drink that  somewhere else please!!

edited to remove the MULTIPLE EXPLETIVES.

an example: FUCK PINOT GRIGIO

So Mark. Don't mince words. Tell us how you really feel...

No really, I understand this completely. If one more bubble-headed amateur twit asks me for a glass of White Zinfandel (Do you see White Zinfandel on the list in your hand?? Can you read???!!!???) I'm getting the automatic, not the shotgun!

Of course you could see it the other way - you are in a service industry, if people want Pinot Grigio or White Zin, then maybe you should stock it?

Back to the topic,

Let's take the insurance company standpoint. Young males pay more for car insurance. Old people pay more for health insurance. It's not Prejudice, it's based on statistics. On average, who more often chooses the wine? And pays the bill?

Of course the best solution is have a wine list for everyone.

[Pan]

Of course the best solution is have a wine list for everyone.

And frankly, I think that's the bottom line. Car insurance premiums have to be set in such a way as to ensure profit for the insurance company, so they redline and so forth. Restaurants have no reason not to print enough wine lists to give two to a couple. I just don't think additional copies are so expensive as to justify discrimination.

[Andre]

Although we do develop habits during our very short lives, I think such decisions should be left to the "leader" of the tabel.

I have recently learned to appriciate women much more, after the birth of my second son. Once you encounter the real thing, a man should attend to the needs of the mother of his children. History had tought us to behave like gentelmen without crossing the thin line of distance, lack of communication and abusement.

If you are a good waiter. learn to read the tabel, learn to categorize your customers and make sure you follow their lead be it a food friendly Pinot Grigio or a realy expensive vulgar chardonnay.

[Varmint]

When there's a group of people at a table, generally there is one person who appears to be more of a take charge type -- the wine list usually ends up in front of him/her.

With a couple, why wouldn't the sommelier just ask who would like to peruse the list?

[Kim WB]

This topic falls into the "with all the REAL problems out there, who cares who gets the wine list" category.

My husband is an alpha male type. He always gets the list, he usually ask for it or agressively nails it the moment its placed on the table if its not directly given to him. He has extensive wine knowledge and experience as well. He orders the wine 95% of the itme. ON occassion, I will be in the mood for a white burg , and he'll hand the list over to me to choose, as he does not drink whites other than champagne. IF I order the wine, then I expect to taste it as well. I guess I'd be a little put off if it was presented to the man to taste if I placed the order..I don't recall this happening ever. Also on occassion, because he knows my preference for big CA Cabs, he might look at the list, decide on having a big cab, and then hand it over to me so that we can discuss the offerrings and decide.

This male power issue is one that I resolved in my marriage long ago, so its become a non-issue of sorts to me. The power structure within our relationship is not augmented nor diminished by how a sommelier perceives us...we know who's REALLY in charge!

[ctgm]

Although we do develop habits during our very short lives, I think such decisions should be left to the "leader" of the tabel.

I have recently learned to appriciate women much more,

Andre, I agree that the "leader" should probably have the last say if everyone is equally knowledgable/ignorant.

I usually get the list with my friends and family as I work in the trade. But when I am out with others who know as much/more I am more than happy to let a man or woman make the decision.

Also when I am out with people who are not so into their wine as me (ie are not prepared to spend as much) I am more than happy to let them make the choice, again regardless of sex

PS I have always greatly appreciated women

Edited January 16, 2004 by ctgm (log)

[tommy]

ah yes. two shining examples of how compassionate those in the service industry are.

wine lists are sometimes very large. if 4 came out to a 4 top in some restaurants, you'd be knocking over glasses trying to read them.

the simple solution, of course, is to present the list to the first player to acknowledge the question of "would you like to see a wine list." you can set up buzzers so they can buzz in. "oooo, i'm sorry alpha male type, it seems that clueless dimwit buzzed in before you. looks like you'll be enjoying a fine sutter home tonight."

edit for speeling.

Edited January 16, 2004 by tommy (log)

[Mark Sommelier]

What I'd like to know is why a French restaurant even offers a pinot grigio.

I don't.

[bleachboy]

My wife seems to actually prefer letting me choose the wine, although she has a pretty good knowledge of wines herself. We both like to look at the wine list though, as they can be a little bit educational if discussed, so the list will usually get handed back and forth between my wife and I.

However, handing either one of us a wine list greater than 1/8 inch in thickness is equivalent to handing us a note reading "ask for a sommelier" which is what we'll inevitably do when presented with an encyclopedic list.

[Mark Sommelier]

So Mark.  Don't mince words. Tell us how you really feel...

No really, I understand this completely.  If one more bubble-headed amateur twit asks me for a glass of White Zinfandel (Do you see White Zinfandel on the list in your hand?? Can you read???!!!???) I'm getting the automatic, not the shotgun!

I hear you, Katie. My list has 650 selections. Every now and then I get one of those great experts who says "oh, you don't have this, you don't have that....blah blah blah". My response is always: You're right. This is a list of what I HAVE.

[tammylc]

So Mark - you jumped right in, but you didn't tell us what the usual practice is at Citronelle. Care to share your protocol?

[sammy]

I don't see the point in more than one list. What's wrong with simply passing it around if someone else would like to see it? Giving a 650 bottle wine list to each person at the table is a bit ridiculous. Mark would need to keep them on a rolling cart. Tables (which seem to be getting smaller and smaller) are crowded enough already.

Each person gets a menu because each person orders their food. Only one person orders the wine.

As for tasting, the person that usually orders it tastes it but I've been to a few restaurants where the waiter asked who would like to taste it. Even though I typically order the wine when I'm out with my wife, sometimes I ask her to taste it.

[GG Mora]

This topic falls into the "with all the REAL problems out there, who cares who gets the wine list" category.

My sentiments exactly.

My husband knows next to nothing about wine, except that his wife knows how to pick a decent bottle. When someone tries to hand him a wine list, he usually says something (gently) like "My wife knows better what to do with that than I do". Unless I've already jumped in with "Hey, I'll take that". And he just as gently guides whomever back to me when it comes time to taste. No big deal. This is how we handle it in any restaurant, big or small, expensive or not. Except on our honeymoon in France – he doesn't speak French, so he let the dumb look on his face guide the wine list elsewhere. And he's not at all threatened when I get into lengthy arcane discussions with the server, sommelier, whomever. In fact, I think it's a bit of a turn-on.

When I was single and dating, I had no qualms about commandeering the wine list, and generally got no resistance. If I did, it was time to blow the ref's whistle and move on. "Next!".

[ludja]

As a woman, I don't really mind who the wine list gets handed to. If I'm in the mood to contribute to a wine decision; I'll just ask the person who received the menu to look it over and negotiate with them from there.

That being said, I prefer it when the server politely pauses and either explicitly or not, inquires as to who would like the wine menu.... rather than handing it to the man or any one person with a big pre-ordained flourish...

I think one copy is fine; I agree that the table would get a little crowded w/multiple wine menus which are often larger.

I do expect, as a part of good service, that the server will remember who ordered the wine and arrange the tasting appropriately. If a given server seems to have forgotton and recovers gracefully, all may be forgiven.

The more grating situation is when the server handles the mistake and/or recovery with elaborate awkwardness. I don't know exactly how to describe this, but some servers (very few, I'm happy to report in SF) will, if the woman indicates or is indicated for choosing the wine, suddently adjust their demeanor to falsely convey extreme over-solicitude and 'respect' for the woman ordering. This pantomine will then continue to the tasting. It comes across as so patently false and is the only thing that will get me really mad in this situation.

[KatieLoeb]

And on a side note, I am a scientist. While I know that NaCl (table salt) is neutral, I found Katie Loeb, a wine professional, informative and helpful on the subject of how wines work with food. Thanks, everyone.

My sincere thanks for the compliment. I'm humbled. I guess I was trying to make up for becoming too busy at work to complete the eGCI course on Pairing Food and Wine I'd offered to instruct last fall. Some day I hope to have enough "spare time" (what's that? ) to fulfill that promise at greater length. My diatribe can be found HERE

And I'd like to apologize to everyone for my testiness in my last few posts last night. I was having a bout of insomnia and it was very late. I was testy and Mark handed me the ammunition set myself off. I'll ty to be better...

And I'd actually be very curious to hear Mark's reply about the wine list protocol at Citronelle. How 'bout it, Mark?

[Suzanne F]

Once again, I'm going to remind customers -- male and female -- that not even the best service staff can read minds. If you want to see the list, ask for it, or ask for two copies. If you want to be the one to taste, tell the person pouring; and if s/he has already poured a taste for someone else at the table, ask him/her to pour for you, too.

This should not be a gender issue; it should be an issue of the customer requesting and the service person responding appropriately.

(And if anyone sitting with me at the table asked for White Zin, I would politely but firmly ask that person to please leave. Unless s/he were the one paying. )

[Brad Ballinger]

Two no-brainer solutions here.

1. Put the list in a neutal spot on the table, or

2. Ask who would like the wine list.

[Mark Sommelier]

So Mark - you jumped right in, but you didn't tell us what the usual practice is at Citronelle. Care to share your protocol?

Simple. The captain is told by the maitre d' who the host is. The menus are presented and the host is asked if he/she would like the wine list. The host is then the one who either accepts the list or delegates. My list, though fairly large, is pretty straightforward: the first half is white wine, the second half is red wine. I am also a maniac about keeping the list up to date. I print pages almost daily to reflect new products, out of stocks and vintgage/price changes, so that most common ritual I find in virtually every restaurant I dine in, that of the waiter returning to tell me my choice is not available almost never happens in my establishment. If the wine is on the list, I have it. Most people never notice this small fact, but to me, it is very important.