The dangers of the high horse

[Marlene]

Just don't serve me mushy pasta with Prego sauce and Kraft grated "parmesan" cheese in a jar.

Does that mean lunch is off?

[uberleet]

...don't tell me why eating meat is bad.  Tell me why not eating meat is good.

(does that make any sense?)

Yes! Thank you! This is what drives me nuts about a lot of the existing vegetarian "cuisine" - it's all about being vegetarian, and not about being good.

[hjshorter]

In my opinion, the site has changed over the last few months. It has changed from, "You really should try xxxx if you get a chance" to, "You are poisoning yourself with toxic swill if you aren't eating what I am."

I hope no one said this verbatim.

[continuing]

There was some of that attitude in the Semi-Homemade thread or the Rick Bayless thread.

There was quite a bit of it on the Wal-Mart thread too. It's the same attitude I see on parenting lists from those who breastfeed to those who have decided to use formula for whatever reasons. The "you might as well be feeding your family from a dumpster" attitude. It sucks, it condescending, and it's wrong - regardless of the posters intent.

I don't have the time, energy, or money to be a food snob. I'll even admit to liking Velveeta.

[Bux]

Not smoking increases the odds you will be healthier. That seems like a positive statement.

There are two types of food snobs: a) ones that base their snobbery on experience and a search what tastes good, and b) ones that base their snobbery on what's trendy or cool. 

There are three types of food snobs. Let's add those who can tell us what others base their opinion on. I'm half serious here. Some people will actually come out and give a reason that lets you dismiss their opinion as pure snobbism, but often enough there's really a prejudcie invovled in making that decision. One diner may go to the latest Asian-French fusion restaurant because it's a hot trend, while another may go because he likes the food. And still a third may go precisely because it's a hot trend and he's curious about why it's trendy. I find that curiosity a positive intellectual reason while others may just wonder why he cares and dismiss his curiosity as snobbism.

[Pan]

Well-put, Bux. Curiosity about what the buzz is all about and whether there's substance behind it or not is a reasonable reaction.

[morela]

I eat cheez-its. I cool, right?

[agnolottigirl]

I agree that there's a tendency on the boards (sometimes) to talk about food as a moral issue. And yeah, we have more of it on eG because we're a self-selecting group of people who are more inclined to care about this kind of thing. We are also probably young or middle aged, probably middle class or better off than that, and most likely pretty well educated with at least some leisure time to spend surfing the site, as well as the time and money to spend on more involved cooking and/or eating out. I think we're a pretty privileged bunch, by and large, and I agree with FistFullaRoux that, as such, we're not representative of the majority.

On the one hand, I believe that there are genuine, food-related moral questions. Hunger is the biggie, in my mind. Then there are environmental and animal-rights/humane concerns, like eating fish that have have astronomical bycatch rates, or sustainable agriculture.

But most of the stuff we talk about on the site--and what I think it's really for--is to talk about what tastes good. . . which is, after all, a matter of taste, no? Value enters into the equation as well. My father-in-law would always choose an all-you-can-eat buffet over any other dining option, because he values volume over other things (like taste, freshness, presentation, etc.). So we have different ideas about what's good, and what's worth eating.

I do think there's another kind of snottiness, though, that I have seen here occasionally (though not often) that has to do with knowing more, or having been more places, or having eaten a wider variety of things. There was a thread a while back about French pronunciations of food words, and while there were defenders of the non-Francophones, there were also some pretty demeaning comments. . . implications to the effect that if you didn't know how to pronounce the word, you couldn't possibly enjoy the food (because you're a troglodyte, most likely). Aside from being obviously false, this kind of post detracts (for me, anyway) from the fun and open sharing that brings me here in the first place.

Edited January 14, 2004 by agnolottigirl (log)

[helenjp]

Specialized cuisines and family cooking just aren't about the same thing. Room for all, isn't there?

But...I don't want to rush into assuming that everybody does cook with lots of prepared items. And I especially don't want to assume that everybody who doesn't is a snob.

Shortcuts -- sure, everybody has those, and everybody's idea of how to cut corners is different. I would rather make a pizza base than get out the car, head to the supermarket, troll the aisles, line up at the cash register, etc., etc.

That isn't snobbism, that's choosing where to be lazy! I actually think it is snobbism to assume that everybody cooks the same way, and that anybody who can't own up to rows of Hamburger Helper packets in the pantry is eitiher either lying or incredibly up him/herself.

There's a whole world out there where packets of Hamburger Helper have never been seen...(and now I'm off to see if I can find a picture of what this stuff looks like, and to actually do some of the work that the packets and cans I DO buy are supposed to facilitate!)

[FistFullaRoux]

In my opinion, the site has changed over the last few months. It has changed from, "You really should try xxxx if you get a chance" to, "You are poisoning yourself with toxic swill if you aren't eating what I am."

I hope no one said this verbatim.

[continuing]

There was some of that attitude in the Semi-Homemade thread or the Rick Bayless thread.

There was quite a bit of it on the Wal-Mart thread too. It's the same attitude I see on parenting lists from those who breastfeed to those who have decided to use formula for whatever reasons. The "you might as well be feeding your family from a dumpster" attitude. It sucks, it condescending, and it's wrong - regardless of the posters intent.

I don't have the time, energy, or money to be a food snob. I'll even admit to liking Velveeta.

YES!! That's it. That's what I was trying to get my dain bramaged self to say. You nailed it. Exactly. Thank you.

[jhlurie]

I eat cheez-its. I cool, right?

Incredibly.

[marie-louise]

... I see a class war brewing, and I think certain things need to be kept in mind...

I don't see it at all.

[gus_tatory]

... I see a class war brewing, and I think certain things need to be kept in mind...

I don't see it at all.

...and i, in the past, have eaten raw ramen noodles out of the bag.

does that make me the "anti food-snob"? or just a slob...

[robyn]

Cusina:

In my opinion, the site has changed over the last few months. It has changed from, "You really should try xxxx if you get a chance" to, "You are poisoning yourself with toxic swill if you aren't eating what I am."

I consider that to be insulting...

So far you haven't made an attempt to differentiate among the different kinds of people you might encounter here. There are all kinds. I am probably representative of one kind. My husband and I are close to 60. We are retired and well off. Neither of us is fat - but we're not thin either. My husband takes a lot of drugs for high blood pressure. At our age - we have to "eat healthy" to stay reasonably fit. So - if we're going to eat rich expensive food - which we can't do very often for health reasons - it had better be very good/great. And we're prepared to spend the money to eat that way. On the junk side - I like fritos - but they are a once a year perhaps on New Year's treat. If I wanted to be thinner - my diet would be more extreme.

You can't compare people like me and my husband with people 30 years younger than us. Different point in life in terms of money - and metabolism. Certainly we aren't the same people we were 30 years ago in terms of food. Simply stated - we have more money - but less ability to consume. So we get increasingly picky about what we eat.

Perhaps other people in this thread will tell us where they are in terms of life's continuum. Robyn

[Katherine]

... I see a class war brewing, and I think certain things need to be kept in mind...

I don't see it at all.

...and i, in the past, have eaten raw ramen noodles out of the bag.

does that make me the "anti food-snob"? or just a slob...

Try them toasted.

[robyn]

I somewhat regret the fact that I've travelled more in parts of Asia and Europe than the U.S. and other countries in the Americas. No, I don't regret it too much because I wouldn't give up my travelling experiences for anything, but I know very well that there's a lot of country out there to see in the U.S., Canada, Mexico, etc. One of these days, I'd like to visit more parts of those countries. But Africa also beckons...

Anyway, if any of you haven't seen The New Yorker maps of the world, you owe it to yourself to find a copy somewhere. They're hilarious and do reflect an attitude many New Yorkers have, reflected in some funny but pointed remarks by fifi about "flyover country." 

Well - if you want a point of view from someone who lives outside NYC and who has spent a lot of time there. My most indelible impression was on 9/12 (my husband and I happened to be in NYC on 9/11 - 9/10 was our anniversary) - sitting in a restaurant with an outside patio on the upper West Side for lunch. And with the WTC smoldering in the background - many of the people at that restaurant were saying that we deserved it - we had it coming to us. Most of the others simply considered it to be a massive inconvenience - like a bad snowstorm. I found the whole experience quite incredible - and strange - and disconcerting. I suspect even Steinberg would have been turning over in his grave had he been privy to what we heard. I was happy to arrive home a few days later - where the people weren't so weird.

I heartily recommend that you and other New Yorkers take the time to see (and listen to) the rest of the country (a fair number of non-New Yorkers like me have seen most of it). Robyn

[robyn]

Let me say that this site has ALWAYS as part of its base doctrine been "friendly" to regional cuisines...

There's a difference between being friendly to regional cuisines - and being friendly to the people who live in the regions where those cuisines come from. Robyn

[tommy]

I heartily recommend that you and other New Yorkers take the time to see (and listen to) the rest of the country (a fair number of non-New Yorkers like me have seen most of it). Robyn

i'm fairly certain that this isn't some sort of blanket statement about all, or even most people from NY. yes, of this i'm fairly certain.

[fifi]

Flyover country? Whad'I ever say about flyover country. I don't live in flyover country. Houston is the center of the freakin' universe. You don't believe it? Well... We have this great big valve that we can turn to shut off all of your oil and gas and you will all freeze in the dark. BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!

[ExtraMSG]

... I see a class war brewing, and I think certain things need to be kept in mind...

I don't see it at all.

...and i, in the past, have eaten raw ramen noodles out of the bag.

does that make me the "anti food-snob"? or just a slob...

This actually used to be a favorite snack of me and a friend as kids. We'd open the flavor pack and lick the ramen noodles and dip them in it and then chomp on them. I actually like ramen better this way than as soup.

[robyn]

Big Daddy. I tried to buy the junked out Pontiac wagon that used to sit out back a couple of times. He was a nice guy, but didn't exactly expound on the secrets of his fabulous ribs. 

His family members up here were a bit surprised when I mentioned that Dreamland was featured on a "BBQ Road Trip" segment on NPR and that he'd been interviewed for national radio broadcast. He was always known in the family as "the one with the BBQ place" - not thought of as successful.

It's okay - I still like the ribs I mkae in my own smoker better than any I've had elsewhere.

Add me to the list of folks who don't like tripe, tendon and the like. I ordered the "beef stew" version of Pho once at my local Viet restaurant and was truly disgusted, not realizing in advance what the contents would really be. I do like sweetbreads however.... I suppose there never is any accounting for taste.

When it comes to offal these days - it's not simply a matter of taste. My husband and I love offal - and used to eat it frequently when we traveled. But since it's a relatively risky food now (compared to muscle meat) - we avoid it. Robyn

[robyn]

Well... All I have to say is that in Texas we have snobbier snobs than any place on the planet. They are called BBQ brisket freaks. So there.  

I live in the south - and a southern brisket is the worst thing I've ever encountered! Point cut - with every trace of fat cut off. You try to braise it - and it winds up tasting like old shoes. So I don't know what everyone is being snobby about . Robyn

[SethG]

My most indelible impression was on 9/12 (my husband and I happened to be in NYC on 9/11 - 9/10 was our anniversary) - sitting in a restaurant with an outside patio on the upper West Side for lunch.  And with the WTC smoldering in the background - many of the people at that restaurant were saying that we deserved it - we had it coming to us.  Most of the others simply considered it to be a massive inconvenience - like a bad snowstorm.  I found the whole experience quite incredible - and strange - and disconcerting.  I suspect even Steinberg would have been turning over in his grave had he been privy to what we heard.  I was happy to arrive home a few days later - where the people weren't so weird.

I heartily recommend that you and other New Yorkers take the time to see (and listen to) the rest of the country (a fair number of non-New Yorkers like me have seen most of it).  Robyn

Do you fail to see the irony in the implicit generalization you have made about New Yorkers and your presumptuous judgment of individuals' reactions to a terrible tragedy, all in the middle of a thread about how we should try not to make our opinions about food into a value judgment about other people?

Edited January 14, 2004 by SethG (log)

[hannnah]

...and i, in the past, have eaten raw ramen noodles out of the bag. 

does that make me the "anti food-snob"? or just a slob... 

Neither. But it does mean you have strong teeth.

I've noticed some of the holier-than-thou-ness on some of the threads, but it's just one of those things. Food's a subject that brings that "the way I do it is right and if you don't do it that way you're a godless heathen" out in people. Regionality is another - people are always going to be passionate about where they're from. And some people just come across as condescending no matter what they're talking about.

Add to that the tendency that comes out in any electronic medium, be it discussion forum, mailing list or newsgroup, for minor criticisms to be perceived as bigger than they really are. No real solution to that either, until there's a better option for communicating the non-verbal part of the discussion than .

Despite all that, people on eGullet seem to be good about calming themselves down, or at least good about responding to the occasional "OK, people, please be reasonable" - it's nowhere near as civilized on other electronic forums. I may not agree with various people on various things, but that's all part of the fun. As long as the tone stays civil it'll work out eventually.

[robyn]

My opinion is as valid as yours and anyone else's...

That's not true at all.

I can't talk specifically about you (because I don't know you - and can't remember all of your posts) - but some peoples' opinions about certain things are simply more informed and more valuable than those of other people. Just to give you a silly example - I am a chocolate addict who knows a lot about and spends a lot of money on chocolate. I suspect my opinions about chocolate are more informed than yours. Maybe you know a lot about something else that I don't know about (could be a food thing - or nuclear physics). In that case - your opinions are more important than mine. Cultural relativism is not a good (or valid) thing in my opinion. Robyn

[tommy]

it occurs to me that sometimes people don't know how they're coming off. i think a lot of the snobbishness and the other things discussed on this thread are really nothing more than people not understanding how they come off. i'm sure we could find a few examples in this very thread illustrating that point.