Story of Varmint's Kitchen Renovation

[mnebergall]

I was going to suggest that you consider moving the dishwasher over near the sink. But, I see that you have moved the sinks over near the dishwasher; a move you will not regret.

[Rachel Perlow]

If your second oven in the baking area is electric, then why bother with the added expense of the dual fuel range? You may as well go all gas over there.

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Two words: Self Cleaning

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Don't they make self cleaning gas ovens?

[Varmint]

If your second oven in the baking area is electric, then why bother with the added expense of the dual fuel range? You may as well go all gas over there.

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Two words: Self Cleaning

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Don't they make self cleaning gas ovens?

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Yes, but they're about the same price. GE does not make one in its Monogram line. I'm going with GE because it's made by DCS, yet it has the GE stability behind it.

[Daddy-A]

I've just spent the last 2 hours reading this thread from the beginning, and would like to add a few comments:

1. Do you all have nothing better to do than help Varmint with his kitchen?? My God! This thread is huge!
   
2. Do I have nothing better to do than read this thread? Apparently, No.
   
3. The evolution of this design is amazing, and in hindsight, I'm sure Varmint is glad he didn't go ahead with some of the earlier plans. This current manifestation is a very workable design in what was an extremely difficult room. You're going to LOVE the openness this design offers.
   
4. A suggestion for the baking area: consider lowering the countertops. You may need to lower the kick space since the oven is going in here. A lowered top is good for kneeding and rolling.
   
5. I'd look for a 30" oven (for reasons already discussed).
   
6. Tile countertops will look great, especially if you go large like you mentioned. Check with your local tile suppliers for "discontinued" lines. This is the time of year my local suppliers change over tile lines ... there are deals to be had.
   
7. Concrete flooring may give you some staining troubles, as well as cracking. It's a terrific look, but the end result may not be what you're looking for. fifi, Marlene and others have discussed flooring with me in other threads ... I'm sure we can all add our 2-bits worth here
   
8. New cabinets? You have great selection in the USA ... much better than we do in Canada. Ironically, many of your manufacturers build the full-overlay style in Canada (Omega comes to mind). Home Depot (do they still do EXPO stores?) offer a pretty good selection. Just be sure you get good hinges & drawer glides (i.e. Blum, Blum, or Blum).
   
9. What are your thoughts on cabinet "style"? Unlike Dave & others, I haven't been to your house (guess my invite got lost in the mail eh?? ) so I'm not aware of your decor.
   

Looking forward to seeing this evolve ...

A.

[Varmint]

Lower countertops for baking: 36" high countertops are perfect for my height. Any lower and I'd strain my back. And Mrs. Varmint hasn't kneaded a thing in her life -- well, maybe my back, but that's another story . . . .

I need to start looking for tiles.

I'd love to hear about flooring. No, I don't want cracks. Yes, I want it to be easy to clean and cheap. I don't care that much about wood vs. tile vs. concrete. I've heard about "faux slate", but I need to see it.

Other than flooring, cabinets are my big issue, as I know what I like, but I don't know the best manufacturer. I like sleek, simple contemporary designs: slab doors with retrained handles. Our house is contemporarily-styled and unique, and so the kitchen should follow suit. Guidance on the cabinets will also be very helpful.

I might be able to get my contractor to build the cabinets I want. In the end, it might be just as cost-effective, seeing I don't need any in-lays or other decorative materials. He's done it before and is primarily a trim carpenter. What do y'all think?

I guess Blum is what I need to get.

[winesonoma]

Lower countertops for baking:  36" high countertops are perfect for my height.  Any lower and I'd strain my back.  And Mrs. Varmint hasn't kneaded a thing in her life -- well, maybe my back, but that's another story . . . .

I need to start looking for tiles.

I'd love to hear about flooring.  No, I don't want cracks.  Yes, I want it to be easy to clean and cheap.  I don't care that much about wood vs. tile vs. concrete.  I've heard about "faux slate", but I need to see it. 

Other than flooring, cabinets are my big issue, as I know what I like, but I don't know the best manufacturer.  I like sleek, simple contemporary designs: slab doors with retrained handles.  Our house is contemporarily-styled and unique, and so the kitchen should follow suit.  Guidance on the cabinets will also be very helpful.

I might be able to get my contractor to build the cabinets I want.  In the end, it might be just as cost-effective, seeing I don't need any in-lays or other decorative materials.  He's done it before and is primarily a trim carpenter.  What do y'all think?

I guess Blum is what I need to get.

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He could build the cabinets and buy the doors to fit and match the finish or buy unfinished. Cabinets are easy, doors are not. Look at Bamboo for the floor. Think about big drawers for the lower cabinets, keeps ya off yer knees.

[Daddy-A]

Lower countertops for baking:  36" high countertops are perfect for my height.  Any lower and I'd strain my back.  And Mrs. Varmint hasn't kneaded a thing in her life -- well, maybe my back, but that's another story . . . .

Fair enough ... best not to create any more stress than the reno will create on its own.

I'd love to hear about flooring.  No, I don't want cracks.  Yes, I want it to be easy to clean and cheap.  I don't care that much about wood vs. tile vs. concrete.  I've heard about "faux slate", but I need to see it.

fifi has suggested Commercial Vinyl Tile before, I'm big on Lynoleum (e.g. Forbo's Marmoleum). Both are easy to clean and very durable. I just find tile hard on the feet (I know you're okay with it, I'm just sayin' ... ) and very unforgiving on dishes. Not that china is going to "bounce" of anything mind you.

Other than flooring, cabinets are my big issue, as I know what I like, but I don't know the best manufacturer.

<SNIP>

I might be able to get my contractor to build the cabinets I want.  In the end, it might be just as cost-effective, seeing I don't need any in-lays or other decorative materials.  He's done it before and is primarily a trim carpenter.  What do y'all think?

He could build the cabinets and buy the doors to fit and match the finish or buy unfinished. Cabinets are easy, doors are not. Look at Bamboo for the floor. Think about big drawers for the lower cabinets, keeps ya off yer knees.

Since I don't work in your market, I'm not going to be a huge help on specific brands. I can give you guidelines (e.g. BLUM!) and can help with the details of the design. Bruce's suggestion re: having your carpenter build the boxes, and ordering the doors elsewhere can work nicely. I think full-overlay is the way to go here (i.e. "European" style with the hidden hinges) as it is the simplest to build, IMO.

If you're looking for sleek, some painted MDF doors might be the ticket. Cheap as anything (4x8 sheet of MDF is about $50 up here, much cheaper if you buy several sheets) and very easy to work with. Your carpenter could just cut the doors to size and round off the edges with a router. Just put the Little Varmints to work sanding & painting ... family project!

Drawers & roll-out shelves are a big must! A lot of my customers are initially reluctant to the roll-out idea because they involve two steps (open door, pull-out shelf) whereas drawers use one (open drawer). However, roll-outs are adjustable like shelves, while drawers are not. A few of both will fit the bill.

A.

[winesonoma]

If you go the MDF route get Trupan which is a lightweight version. Wonderful stuff to work with.

Edited December 15, 2004 by winesonoma (log)

[Varmint]

I'd prefer to avoid vinyl, if at all possible. I'm not immovable on it, but it'll take a lot of work to convince me to head down that path.

We could go for something such as bamboo, but I know little about it other than it can be very, very hard.

If I'm going to build cabinets, I'd like the doors to be wood with a natural color. The rest of the box can be whatever! Ultimately, it'll come down to function, design, and then cost. I like light-colored wood, but we have a lot of custom-made oak cabinetry in the living and dining rooms, and we probably need to avoid clashing with that.

I do want the roll-out shelves. I've got to figure where I'm going to put everything. I'll start doing an inventory of all my cooking "stuff", and try to determine where it'd go with the new design. Again, my pantry will be growing by about 20 square feet.

Thanks for all your guidance.

[Varmint]

Here's a revised floor plan, with dimensions (if you can see them!):

Here is my current spec sheet as well:

KITCHEN RENOVATION SPECS – DECEMBER 12, 2004

1. DEMOLITION AND SHEETROCK

• Remove all existing cabinets.

o Cooktop

o Compactor (will keep to sell)

o Grill

o Wall ovens

o Bar Sink + plumbing

o Kitchen sink + plumbing

o Keep existing disposal for new prep sink

• Remove wall oven casing and coat closet

o Load Bearing Wall??

• Remove existing flooring and baseboards

• Tear down existing door and frame to pantry

o Build new doorway extended into kitchen

2. PLUMBING AND GAS

• Run gas line to range location

• Run plumbing for 2 new sink locations

• Run plumbing for dishwasher

• Plumbing and Drainage for new ice maker location

3. ELECTRICAL

• Wiring for range and hood (Existing 220?)

• Wiring for wall oven (Existing 220 from grill?)

• Ice maker

• Wine Fridge

• Dishwasher

• Outlets

• Either side of range (2)

• In cabinet for KitchenAid Mixer

• Under countertops near along eating bar (2-3)

• Along new long counter (3-4)

• In microwave cabinet

• In bookshelf for phone

• Any baseboard outlets?

• Ceiling Lighting – 3 Zones

• Eating Bar

 Prepare wiring around I-beam for lighting

 Sconce?

• Work area

 Recessed?

• Hallway

 Recessed?

• Light switches

• Dimmers

• Reduce number of switches

 Eating Bar

 Work Area

 Hallway by fridge

 Separate switch for above sink?

• Under cabinet lighting

• Switches??

• Move circuit breaker and switches to opposite side of wall. (Cost??)

• Add wiring for new disposals in both sinks

• Add new disposal switches for all sinks

• Electrical for new Subzero locations

• Phone line at midsection of bookshelf

• Light in new closet?

• Relocate switch for pantry light (outside)

4. HVAC -- DUCTWORK

• Close off ductwork from current cooktop downdraft location.

• Reconfigure ductwork near window

• Reconfigure ductwork under current sink cabinet

• Ductwork for new ventilation hood

5. CABINETS AND CARPENTRY

• Install new window

• Base Cabinets beneath window

o Sink

o Dishwasher

o Flatware drawer

o Trash

o Microwave Cabinet

• Upper cabinet over long counter

o Build around windows

• “L” shaped base cabinet near window

o 30” Oven

o Small marble slab to sit on near short window

• Move SubZeros

• Base cabinets for 36” range and eating bar

o Sink

o Wine Fridge

o Ice Maker

o Load bearing beam

• Build and install housing around I-beams

• Install tile countertops

o Add marble pieces

• Build and install bookshelf/phone area at end of SubZeros

• Build new closet

• Build new doorway for pantry

• Build trap door for recycling?

• Need to determine cabinet configuration (drawers, lazy susans, etc.)

6. INSTALLATION

• Cut and install ductwork for hood

• Install backsplash

• Install hood

• Install range

• Install wall oven

• Install microwave

• Install dishwasher

• Install sinks and disposals

• Install lighting

• Install wine fridge

• Install ice maker

7. FLOORING

• Pour concrete (wiring, ducts, plumbing)

• Tint or tiles?

• Repair flooring from change in eating bar area

8. FOLLOW-UP (Homeowner to do)

• Replace Sub-Zero panels

[fifi]

Floors . . . I have had several: ceramic tile, sheet vinyl, wood (once in a rental), commercial vinyl tile. My hands down favorite is the CVT. But then, you should know that by now. It is wonderful underfoot and maintenance is just about non-existent other than mopping. The style also fits my style. The ceramic tile was nice looking and the grout was "non-staining" and a darker color so I didn't have any grout issues. It was hard on my feet and lower back and death on anything dropped. Never again on the wood. If anyone tells you that the "new finish" is "lifetime," run fast. I haven't tried any of the new laminates. I have a friend that has that and it hasn't been without problems, primarily with a strip or two all of a sudden "rising up." Concrete is a non-starter in my mind. What a pain in the butt to get it right. My sister did a floor in one room and it was a royal pain. An architect friend did one and had constant problems with the "sealers." And it is NOT cheap. So, I am back to CVT. After all, there has to be some reason why there are thousands of acres of it out there in big-box-store-land.

Cabinets . . . Get thee to an IKEA and check it out. If my cabinets aren't job-built, that is what I am going with. There is a huge range of design and the hardware, drawer glides and hinges, is impressive. There are all kinds of configurations available in the base cabinets with drawers. All of mine will have the drawers as I hate groveling on my knees. All of the drawers are full extension and hold an impressive amount of weight. My decision is based on cost and quality.

[mnebergall]

Ikea has a special kitchen catalog that has all of their cabinets pictured. They will mail it to you.

[Varmint]

This site (http://cabinetrydirect.com/) offers custom built, all wood cabinets at a very reasonable price. I estimate that if I were to get their high end oak cabinets, it'll cost me about 7 to 8 thousand dollars (plus shipping), which is probably 2-3 times what you'd pay at Ikea, but is all wood. For their "mid-level" all wood cabinets, the cost would be about 20% less, but they use Blum hardware at this level, which is what Daddy-A told me I had to get.

Play around with this site, as it's quite fun!

[marie-louise]

Glad to see that counter lined up!

If you don't have enough marble for the whole baking area, I'd like to suggest laminate in a coordinating color for the rest of that area. It's wonderful for baking-you know you are starting on a clean surface, and it's easy to clean up afterwards. Edited to add-I assume you can put hot pans directly onto marble? Otherwise, you want tile right above the oven...

Check out Marmoleum by Forbo. I have a few friends that have it and it looks terrific.

PS 45 inches-that's a big sink you have there!

Edited December 17, 2004 by marie-louise (log)

[Varmint]

I started the sink to be as large as humanly possible, knowing that I'd likely pare it back a bit. I want two large bowls.

I've been looking at some granite countertops on eBay of all places. You can get 8 or 9 foot slabs with a full bullnose for less than $400 each. If not that, granite tile is my likely choice.

I can't say enough good things right now about Cabinetry Direct and its owner, Ken Ables. For less than the price you'd pay for mid-line cabinets from Home Depot that are sold in fixed sizes (and have particle board boxes), you can get 100% wood with top of the line Blum hardware. I'm getting some color samples sent to me, but I'm likely to go with maple, and the cost to me, delivered, will be less than 9 grand. Plus, if you need a 32-1/2 inch cabinet, they'll make it for you. They'll make anything you need, and because I have some special needs, that's ideal.

[marie-louise]

We had a similar experience when we built our beach house-the custom-made cabinets by a local cabinetmaker were actually cheaper than ordering them from a company, plus we got exactly what we wanted.

This thread is so much fun. I love spending other people's money.

[Varmint]

Minor change of plans, as I need to move the SubZeros 14" away from the wall, as that area currently houses ductwork for the air intake from the living room. Ugh. Anyhow, we can build a box around that for the lower portion and build bookshelves or other cabinetry up from there. I need to think it through.

On the other side of the SubZeros, we still want a small set of shelves forming a mini-desk. This gives us space to put notepads for phone messages, as this is the primary location for the phone. This isn't entirely a done deal, but I need to think it through.

Our family room and dining room that are both open to the kitchen have some beautiful custom made cabinets in black walnut. It has a natural finish, so the wood isn't totally dark -- almost cherry like. Instead of trying to match that color, I've decided to go with a light-colored maple for the cabinets, and then use darker colors with the countertop and flooring. I've been looking at some porcelain slate-like tiles for the flooring. The counter may be a combination of slab granite and granite tiles in this color: Click here for the photo. I need to think about this a bit more.

[fifi]

My sister has the slate looking porcelain tiles. She used black in the kitchen and utility. Then on the other side of the house she used a dark terracotta color. They make a very pretty floor. The area rugs look great on that floor as well. She is looking for one for the kitchen. There are some polyolefin rugs out there that are inexpensive and you can hose them off on the driveway if you get gunk on them.

[marie-louise]

Dave-one of my friends has a black Marmoleum floor-it might look nice w/ that granite. She must have Nomad, Lava, or black. they will send you samples for free. Lookie here- click on Marmoleum sheet, then Greydations to find the black patterns.

http://www.themarmoleumstore.com/websites/...sf?OpenDatabase

Edited to add-If I understand you correctly, you can put a shallow cabinet to the right of the subzero unit? I'd suggest a glass-front pantry unit (think China cabinet look.) Handy for storing lots of wine glasses, vases, seldom used serving dishes-things you could arrange that would look nice. You could even put a light in the top of the cabinet & have the shelves be glass. Bookshelves for cookboks would also look cool.

Edited December 18, 2004 by marie-louise (log)

[CtznCane]

We are in the midst of our kitchen (as well as other parts of the house) remodel and our cabinet situation finally is headed in the right direction. We're having a regrigerator moved to increase our counterspace and wound up getting about 6 new cabinets. Since we couldn't match the stain easily (10 year old home) I'm paintiing both the old and new cabinets white which I prefer.

The worst horror story in all of this was our experience with Sears Refacing. What a joke. The guy comes out, and with fewer new cabinets than what we got (he bid 3 cabinets) and the and the refacing work they wanted just under 15 K for the cabinets. (I could have replaced every damned cabinet new for less) To top that off, if we didn't decide that night the price would go up another 1700 dollars. Well, as someone who sold cars for 25 years, even at its most hard core we were not like that.

The biggest problem across the board that we've encountered is service. Other than where we bought our appliances (Friedmans) and our electrical work (done through an electrician I know personally) it is just amazing how difficult it can be. We've wound up doing most of our work through Lowe's though not without initial problems. The only thing that has made it go fairly smoothe, since our initial problems, was that I twice phoned Lowe's corporate to complain after which the store manage now follows up on everything we have done. I can say that for Lowe's they've been quite responsive once I started to complain.

[winesonoma]

As a contractor I would make sure I had looked at the space 20 times on the computer or on paper. My SO/ GF wants to remodel her kitchen. Her neighbor is a kitchen designer and she doesn't even want to see what the designer did at her place. Same townhouse. I think I'll help from the side lines.

[Varmint]

As a contractor I would make sure I had looked at the space 20 times on the computer or on paper. My SO/ GF wants to remodel her kitchen. Her neighbor is a  kitchen designer

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That's why I've re-drawn my plans over 20 times, and re-measured 10 of those. I've made some more changes this weekend. I've decided I need a second dishwasher, so I'll stick an ultra-quiet Bosch under the eating bar. I'me moving the wine fridge into the pantry, seeing it's an older appliance anyhow. I'm eliminating that bookshelf by the eating bar and just making the cabinets to the right of the SubZeros a desk/bookshelf combo.

It's amazing how helpful it is to talk this through on a near-daily basis with everyone and anyone I know. We've been able to sort out a lot of problems, and it's made me a ton more comfortable with the plans.

I'm getting stain samples for the cabinetry this week. I'll meet with the contractor again next week to re-measure and estimate costs once again.

I need to hit some tile shops, maybe on Thursday. I've got to see what's available!

[fifi]

It's amazing how helpful it is to talk this through on a near-daily basis with everyone and anyone I know.  We've been able to sort out a lot of problems, and it's made me a ton more comfortable with the plans. 

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When I went through the two to three month "diary" experience, I was amazed also. I was mostly talking to myself and doing the visualization thing but some of my friends and family would get this terrified look in their eye when I would get a pencil in my hand. Little do they know that the next step will be figuring out the details such as what goes where so I know what kind of drawer units, that kind of thing.

I think you will be very glad that you had the delay.

[marie-louise]

I've decided I need a second dishwasher, so I'll stick an ultra-quiet Bosch under the eating bar.  I'me moving the wine fridge into the pantry, seeing it's an older appliance anyhow...

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That sounds like a good plan. I have a Bosch, and while I love it, it is SLOW. The cycle itself takes about 75-100 minutes (it's a little different every time), and then it has to cool down for another hour or two before you can unload the dishes (the dishes dry from the residual heat of the SS interior.) So, each load of dishes takes a few hours to do. It's only a problem for the two of us when we entertain, but w/ all those little Varmits, you'd probably use two dishwashers on a regular basis. Someone (Viking?) makes a DW than does a load in a few minutes-now THAT would be handy.

I think wine fridges look cool in a pantry. Speaking of your pantry, one of the best features about mine is a small 30-inch high counter (mine is the top of my Elfa baskets.) It's very handy to have a place to set things down. Perhaps the top of the wine cooler could be fitted w/ a countertop?

[Varmint]

The kitchen's a "go." It's time to move onto the next step. Details to follow.