Mad Cow Disease now in the U.S.

[ExtraMSG]

I don't jest at all. There are so many things that are a greater risk than the food we eat here in America.

And while reading Fast Food Nation, I kept noting how much more effective Jack in the Box and McDonald's were at ensuring safe food than the government. How vigilant they were about such things was merely a function of how much noise their customers made (and it didn't take a lot of noise, either).

[Mabelline]

I spoke to my butcher,too. He said basically the same thing as Nick's. But I got even more confused after reading Denise_jer"s link to the oxtail soup question, because it states that experimentally infected cattle in the UK carried BSE in the bone marrow. Also,the talk about the parts of the skull said nothing about cheeks, which I just ate a couple weeks ago. Damn, we're going to end up with no 'parts', and no bones! PHOOEY-get a rope!

Edit to add that I mean I probably need to consign those beef cheeks to my 'gallery of no longer', not that I was apprehensive about what's already been consumed.

Edited January 1, 2004 by Mabelline (log)

[Pan]

ExtraMSG, respectfully, I ask you to reflect on whether your opinion on the effectiveness of the private sector (as if that's really a single entity, which it isn't) in combatting contamination in food isn't tinged by a strong belief in an ideology. Or is the key point "when it decides to do so"? In that case, you may be right, but if you're mainly just opposed to all regulations, you will have a hard time convincing me that all private enterprises will voluntarily adopt high standards for food safety, workplace safety, maximum hours, etc., etc., if not ordered to by the government.

As I see it, the government must enforce minimum standards on all these things. Then, if very responsible enterprises wish to exceed those minimum standards, they are free to do so, brag about it, and reap the benefits of so doing.

Best wishes for the new year!

Edited January 1, 2004 by Pan (log)

[ExtraMSG]

Pan, of course it is, but no less than the opposing opinion.

[Mabelline]

I mentioned Brucellosis being possibly found in Wyoming. The Billings Gazette reported that 31 of 391 cattle in that same herd have tested positive. Up until now Wyoming has enjoyed B-Free status, which is one requirement in order for WYO. cattle to be sold across state lines. Since that original posive test announcement Colorado, Nebraska, & California have implemented various restrictions on the importation of WYO. cattle.

[vengroff]

In an idealized market model, it is fairly easy to make the argument that the invisible hand will force producers to provide safe food products to consumers. Consumers will decide what they will or will not pay for products made from ingredients and processes that they perceive as more or less risky to their health.

The critical piece of this model that tends to be missing in the real world is the full disclosure of information from the producers to the consumers. A month ago, how many consumers had any idea that the hamburger they were eating could be made from cattle too sick to stand up? If they knew, many might have been willing to pay an extra few cents a pound for beef certified by the producer not to have come from downers. Soon the market would reach a new equillibrium at a slightly higher price, supported by full access to information about production methods. If the equilibrium price of a commodity is predicated on either buyers or sellers having incomplete information, then the market has failed.

Given that producers tend to actively resist any requirements to provide additional information on the ingredients and processes that go into their products, it seems that government intervention to force them to do so could conceivably help move the market closer to its ideal configuration.

It's a radical concept for rabid free-marketeers who resist any suggestion of government intervention in markets. Curiously enough, however, their ranks tend to be populated by those who benefit most from witholding complete information from the market.

[Mabelline]

Not only that, but I don't think any of us realized that parts of that one cow would make it to so many states, so fast.

[Bux]

And while reading Fast Food Nation, I kept noting how much more effective Jack in the Box and McDonald's were at ensuring safe food than the government.

And after Tthree Washington children died and 600 others were sickened due to poisoning from E. coli O157:H7 served in undercooked Jack In The Box hamburgers, did you still feel they did an effective job? When more effective becomes ineffective it's no longer effective. Private industry has a moral and ethical obligation to the public and a financial obligation to its shareholders. Government has an obligation only to the citizens.

[Anna N]

... Government has an obligation only to the citizens.

Among whom are cattle-rangers and a host of other groups whose money is used to support government!

[Pan]

Pan, of course it is, but no less than the opposing opinion.

I'm not sure about that. It depends whether you're opposed to all government regulations. If you are, the opposite opinion would be to support government regulation of everything, and I doubt you'd find too many people who have that viewpoint.

[Pan]

Anna, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that ranchers get all kinds of benefits from the government, including the right to graze their cattle for free or almost nothing on huge tracts of public land run by the Bureau of Land Management.

Edited January 1, 2004 by Pan (log)

[Mabelline]

When you talk about big money, think about this: everytime a head of cattle is run through and sold, an involuntary $1. goes to the beef board. How many cattle were we talking about selling? The last two years there have been a couple ranchers fighting a class action suit to no longer involuntarily pay this fee. Has not gotten too far as we speak.

[Anna N]

Anna, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that ranchers get all kinds of benefits from the government, including the right to graze their cattle for free or almost nothing on huge tracts of public land run by the Bureau of Land Management.

Pan, I honestly don't know the answer to your question. The point I was trying to make is that the government is not to be trusted to keep us safe simply because that's its obligation to citizens. Lobbyists from tobacco manufacturers to cattle ranchers "buy" the government by their enormous contributions to party coffers - both sides of the border. I think this was very clearly demonstrated in the last few days in the stories about downer cows - rejected cows cost ranchers money and it is in their interest to lobby the government(s) not to bring in regulations that would protect the rest of us from potential disease from such cows.

[Mabelline]

I think most ranchers as such would do like jsolomon said: we take the loss and put the cow in our own freezers. The downers like what you refer to come from large dairies and feedlots. And those folks have always got someone like that very small processor to take the animal to fill an order. And the large concerns are quite different from stockmen(women). It's just a big sweatshop with no roof.

[Pan]

I understand the point you're making, Anna.

[Bux]

The point I was trying to make is that the government is not to be trusted to keep us safe simply because that's its obligation to citizens. Lobbyists from tobacco manufacturers to cattle ranchers "buy" the government by their enormous contributions to party coffers - both sides of the border. I think this was very clearly demonstrated in the last few days in the stories about downer cows - rejected cows cost ranchers money and it is in their interest to lobby the government(s) not to bring in regulations that would protect the rest of us from potential disease from such cows.No arguem

No argument there, I don't trust the government, but given the alternative between trusting the people the lobbyists are trying to convince and the people the lobbyists work for, there's no question in my mind which one might act in my interest.

[Pan]

Moreover, the government is at least somewhat affected by voting, whereas it's hard to know how a consumer could affect a meat-packing plant.

[ExtraMSG]

The critical piece of this model that tends to be missing in the real world is the full disclosure of information from the producers to the consumers. A month ago, how many consumers had any idea that the hamburger they were eating could be made from cattle too sick to stand up? If they knew, many might have been willing to pay an extra few cents a pound for beef certified by the producer not to have come from downers.

Agreed. But I think the problem is that people have become too reliant on government. People are by nature lazy. Unless our habit or need is to do something, we usually won't. When the government takes on this responsibility, people let that responsibility go.

One thing that's interesting to realize is that often government regulations such as these are actually used by the corporations to give a false sense of security and limit liability.

Personally, I think that Fast Food Nation is an excellent read, even though in reading it it's important to recognize that it has a clear point of view and is not even attempting objective journalism, which he admits and is fine with me. But for me, the lesson learned fits with my preconceptions, of course, that the market and civil courts are much better at controlling food quality and that the best thing the government can do is stay out of the way of these systems doing their job. (Remember, I am a libertarian, and as such, no special friend to corporations and disagree with the Republican Party's constant attempts to limit liability.)

btw, I thought this was an interesting article on Mad Cow:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,107188,00.html

And this previous one:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,87571,00.html

Edited January 2, 2004 by ExtraMSG (log)

[John Whiting]

In today's NYT, Eric Schlosser documents the fact that the US laissez-faire management of its meat supply, followed by its equivocal response to its proven failure, is a recapitulation of the chain of events in every country which has already gone through this sorry sequence of events. Would we allow the National Association of Burglers to write the laws governing their own activities, on the grounds that "the market knows best"?

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/tnt.html?tntg...print&position=

[Pan]

I think the problem is that people have become too reliant on government. People are by nature lazy. Unless our habit or need is to do something, we usually won't. When the government takes on this responsibility, people let that responsibility go.

Perhaps so, but how would individuals find out what happens at meat packing plants if those private enterprises barred them from the premises?

[vengroff]

I think the problem is that people have become too reliant on government.  People are by nature lazy.  Unless our habit or need is to do something, we usually won't.  When the government takes on this responsibility, people let that responsibility go.

Perhaps so, but how would individuals find out what happens at meat packing plants if those private enterprises barred them from the premises?

Maybe they could start giving free public tours, the way many breweries and chocolate factories do. You watch a short video on the history of meat, then a tour guide takes you through the plant, where you watch operations from behind panels of glass. At the end, you get a free hamburger and the option of buying a T-shirt from the gift shop.

How likely is that to happen?

[John Whiting]

Maybe they could start giving free public tours, the way many breweries and chocolate factories do. . . . How likely is that to happen?

And in particular, how likely that they would take the punters to where they were shovelling odds and ends into the hamburger machine?

[Nick]

In today's NYT, Eric Schlosser documents the fact that the US laissez-faire management of its meat supply, followed by its equivocal response to its proven failure, is a recapitulation of the chain of events in every country which has already gone through this sorry sequence of events. Would we allow the National Association of Burglers to write the laws governing their own activities, on the grounds that "the market knows best"?

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/tnt.html?tntg...print&position=

John, your link goes to an NYT membership page. The link below goes to the Schlosser article, which is well worth reading.

Schlosser.

[John Whiting]

Thanks, Nick, I thought the printer-friendly page was freely available.

[ronnie_suburban]

Came across this story about the offal export market at MSNBC.com, while surfing this morning.

=R=