Attacking Italian Restaurants

[Jaymes]

On the question of "Have most Americans tasted a great tomato," how does that bear on the inquiry?

Because the implication is that Americans are served crap in crappy restaurants because Americans cannot tell the difference between "good" food and crap, and when they can, they actually prefer crap, if said crap is good looking.

....and is served in huge quantities.

Damn straight. Supersize that crap.

Edited December 15, 2003 by Jaymes (log)

[fresco]

One thought that does occur is that North America and much of Europe are heading in opposite directions.

North America, which succeeded perhaps too brilliantly in applying industrial methods to food, is now seeing the rebirth of small cheese makers, organic and heirloom fruit and vegetables and free range, organic beef, chicken, pork, etc.

Much of Europe, which was slower to adopt these methods, and indeed, to let go of dining habits which encouraged the use of fresh local ingredients, is now increasingly eating fast food, imported food and food produced under "industrial" conditions.

Wait 10 or 20 years and the two continents might reach some sort of equilibrium.

[sammy]

Aren't tomatoes a sesonal product in Italy? Don't most restaurants use canned tomatoes when tomatoes are out of season?

A had a conversation with the chef/owner of one of my favorite Italian restaurants about bolognese sauce. His bolognese sauce, while very good, does not compare to the bolognese sauce I had in Italy. He agrees it is different and the reason it is different (more of a tomato based meat sauce than true bolognese) is that if he served traditional bolognese, he'd get to many complaints about the sauce not being tomatoey enough or saucy enough and he doesn't want to deal with dishes being returned to the kitchen.

Every month or two, he holds special dinners on a Monday night where he attempts to cook more authentic italian dishes from a particular region and is successful with them because he's not attempting to sell them to the masses, only 40 or so people that are interested in the cuisine every two months instead of 80 (lunch and dinner) every day.

[tommy]

And yes, I also think that most Americans have never tasted good produce...

and if they have, they've probably enjoyed them with white zinfandel, which up until very recently was the biggest selling wine in the US (only now surpassed by chardonnay, and i don't think we're talking burgundy here).

[slkinsey]

Aren't tomatoes a sesonal product in Italy? Don't most restaurants use canned tomatoes when tomatoes are out of season?

Yes. And we can get these tomatoes here in the US (although it is no doubt harder to find a tin of San Marzano tomatoes in Nebraska than it is in New York City). Many Italians also grow their own tomatoes which they jar themselves (either whole or in puree). This is a much more common activity in Italy than it is in America. Another difference is the fact the most Italians won't eat or cook with out-of-season fresh tomatoes.

A had a conversation with the chef/owner of one of my favorite Italian restaurants about bolognese sauce. His bolognese sauce, while very good, does not compare to the bolognese sauce I had in Italy. He agrees it is different and the reason it is different (more of a tomato based meat sauce than true bolognese) is that if he served traditional bolognese, he'd get to many complaints about the sauce not being tomatoey enough or saucy enough and he doesn't want to deal with dishes being returned to the kitchen.

Right! That's an illustration of the exact point I have been making. Most Americans expect a meat sauce for pasta to be tomatoey. As a result, the restauranteur offers a "bolognese" sauce that is not a bolognese sauce at all. Most Americans also tend to eat a rich meat sauce like this with dry pasta as opposed to fresh (which seems strange to me, and would to most Italians).

[sammy]

I'll add that the restaurant I brought up above is always getting beat up by a group of diners for serving "small" portions and they are by American standards, not by Italian standards.

[Boris_A]

I remember a manager (buying food for a widespread Swiss supermarket chain) telling that he needs always better quality (cheese, meat, vegetables ...) for the Italian speaking part of Switzerland than for the German speaking part.

And my mother (who used to have a little Osteria in the Italian speaking part) said that her Swiss-Italian inhabitants visited significantly less often her restaurant than the Swiss-German inhabitants and have been far more demanding in terms of price/quality.

Obviously, the different quality perception exists on a micro level as well.

Regards, Boris

[sammy]

I'll ask another question:

How many U.S. Italian restaurants are run by or have cooks that are Italian?

My understanding of the NYC market is that many are now run by Albanian families.

[tommy]

And we can get these tomatoes here in the US (although it is no doubt harder to find a tin of San Marzano tomatoes in Nebraska than it is in New York City).

it should be noted that it's not very easy finding canned san marzano tomatoes in northern NJ even. the supermarkets carry 20 brands, none of which are san marzano. so yeah, i end up eating second-rate canned tomatoes most of the time.

[Jaymes]

And we can get these tomatoes here in the US (although it is no doubt harder to find a tin of San Marzano tomatoes in Nebraska than it is in New York City).

it should be noted that it's not very easy finding canned san marzano tomatoes in northern NJ even. the supermarkets carry 20 brands, none of which are san marzano. so yeah, i end up eating second-rate canned tomatoes most of the time.

As opposed to my local grocery store, which is a regular chain store, which is not a "gourmet" type store at all, which is located in fact in a very working-class neighborhood, and which in addition to all of the regular "American" brands carries some four or five Italian brands, including two types of San Marzanos, and the San Marzano brand that is grown and canned in the US, and the wonderful Muir Glenn brand that is produced in the Pacific Northwest.

Edited December 15, 2003 by Jaymes (log)

[slkinsey]

And we can get these tomatoes here in the US (although it is no doubt harder to find a tin of San Marzano tomatoes in Nebraska than it is in New York City).

it should be noted that it's not very easy finding canned san marzano tomatoes in northern NJ even. the supermarkets carry 20 brands, none of which are san marzano. so yeah, i end up eating second-rate canned tomatoes most of the time.

Eh... I wouldn't say that they're necessarily second rate per se, just because they're not San Marzano. For example, those Muir Glen organic canned tomatoes are fairly ubiquitous, and they're damn good. They don't taste the same as San Marzano tomatoes, but I think they taste just as good. Even those Pomì tomatoes from Parmalat aren't bad.

[Jason Perlow]

And we can get these tomatoes here in the US (although it is no doubt harder to find a tin of San Marzano tomatoes in Nebraska than it is in New York City).

it should be noted that it's not very easy finding canned san marzano tomatoes in northern NJ even. the supermarkets carry 20 brands, none of which are san marzano. so yeah, i end up eating second-rate canned tomatoes most of the time.

Jerry's, dude.

[tommy]

Jerry's, dude.

i know *where* to get them. but they're not in the 20 supermarkets that are closer to my house. jaymes points out that her supermarket does have them. i don't think we have any conclusion based on this other than you can get them some places, and other places you cannot. i'm betting the latter is more the case over the country as a whole.

[slkinsey]

Jerry's, dude.

i know *where* to get them. but they're not in the 20 supermarkets that are closer to my house. jaymes points out that her supermarket does have them. i don't think we have any conclusion based on this other than you can get them some places, and other places you cannot. i'm betting the latter is more the case over the country as a whole.

I'm betting you're right.

[Fat Guy]

Guy Jones of Blooming Hills Farm in upstate New York

Tim Starck of Eckerton Hills Farms in Pennsylvania

Cherry Lane Farms of Roadstown in Bridgeton, NJ

Mario Batali stands by them too; they are his three primary vendors at Babbo.

This illustrates my point!! In Eurpoe, a good tomato is readily available to everyone a short distance from their home;

In the US, 280 million people can not possibly be served by 3 tomato farms--

Those are three farms that supply mostly restaurants in New York, and their output is sufficient for that task. The point I'm trying to make is that any restaurateur in New York who wants to buy world-class tomatoes in season can buy them from one of those sources. Since we're talking about restaurants, I don't think it matters -- from an availability perspective -- if home consumers have less access to these products (I take issue with that claim, by the way, or at least the wildly overstated version of it that has been presented here). I understand that there's a secondary argument that says if people can't get this stuff at home they won't appreciate it in a restaurant, but that's a separate issue (and also one where I don't necessarily agree with the points made thus far). All I'm saying for now is that a well-financed urban restaurant chef in North America can get world-class product and therefore the availability-of-ingredients theory is insufficient to explain the lack of good Italian-style restaurants outside of Italy.

[Fat Guy]

Jerry's, dude.

i know *where* to get them. but they're not in the 20 supermarkets that are closer to my house. jaymes points out that her supermarket does have them. i don't think we have any conclusion based on this other than you can get them some places, and other places you cannot. i'm betting the latter is more the case over the country as a whole.

I'm betting you're right.

Sure, but anybody can get them. It's just a question of how much you want to spend. Just go to http://www.sanmarzanoimports.com and order whatever you want. If you order enough, the shipping charges aren't even all that bad. If you're a restaurant, it's even easier because you can probably buy enough to make it worthwhile for a local distributor/wholesaler to stock that product.

[tommy]

Sure, but anybody can get them. It's just a question of how much you want to spend. Just go to http://www.sanmarzanoimports.com and order whatever you want. If you order enough, the shipping charges aren't even all that bad. If you're a restaurant, it's even easier because you can probably buy enough to make it worthwhile for a local distributor/wholesaler to stock that product.

i have to apologize for being part of a discussion that i really didn't intend to be a part of.

i just wanted to point out that not every american, and maybe even most americans, has access, within reason, to what is commonly accepted as the "best".

Edited December 15, 2003 by tommy (log)

[slkinsey]

I don't think it is absolutely a question of whether restaurants ultimately have access to these ingredients. It is whether they are actually purchasing these ingredients, whether their customers can afford them, how ubiquitous they are, and how important these things are to their customers. I have plenty of friends who run local trattorie and osterie in small Italian towns. They are always out there foraging for asparagi selvatici, or procuring the first fresh porcini, etc. Why? Because their customers want these things, and eating these products is important to their customers. How many little local Italian joints in America do things like this? Practically none.

The fact that has to be mentioned when we are asking "why aren't there more good Italian-style restaurants in America" is that there are, in actuality, very few Italian-style restaurants in America. Italian-American restaurants outnumber Italian-Italian restaurants by something like a million to one, if not more.

[Jaymes]

Sure, but anybody can get them. It's just a question of how much you want to spend. Just go to http://www.sanmarzanoimports.com and order whatever you want. If you order enough, the shipping charges aren't even all that bad. If you're a restaurant, it's even easier because you can probably buy enough to make it worthwhile for a local distributor/wholesaler to stock that product.

i just wanted to point out that not every american, and maybe even most americans, has access, within reason, to what is commonly accepted as the "best".

And that's certainly true -- depending on what exactly you're talking about.

The US is an enormous place. This thread specifically addresses Italian food. And I am certain that the average Italian eats much better Italian food than the average American who, quite likely, has never really eaten "Italian food" at all.

However, I am not at all certain that the average Italian, or European, eats better when you consider everything that really enters into what arrives on your table.

For example, I strongly doubt that the average Italian eats better BBQ brisket than I do.

And I also suspect that the crawdads pulled from Italian waterways don't hold a candle to those that routinely arrive on Louisiana tables. In fact, I doubt that the Cajun or Creole food in Italy is worth choking down. And, I'd put a good Louisiana gumbo up against a cioppino anyday.

And these are just two examples. The US is full of excellent (and fresh) regional foods.

I don't know what it is about the American psyche that constantly compels us to run ourselves down. And to think that everything "European" is always and necessarily better than everything "American."

Edited December 15, 2003 by Jaymes (log)

[giovanni]

.... if he served traditional bolognese, he'd get to many complaints about the sauce not being tomatoey enough or saucy enough and he doesn't want to deal with dishes being returned to the kitchen.

Every month or two, he holds special dinners on a Monday night where he attempts to cook more authentic italian dishes from a particular region and is successful with them because he's not attempting to sell them to the masses, only 40 or so people that are interested in the cuisine every two months instead of 80 (lunch and dinner) every day.

All I'm saying for now is that a well-financed urban restaurant chef in North America can get world-class product and therefore the availability-of-ingredients theory is insufficient to explain the lack of good Italian-style restaurants outside of Italy.

In my view (posted at length early on in this thread), these two observations sum it up (if we stay on the original subject of this discussion......). There's no question in my mind that Batali can produce a true Italian dining experience here in the States, with his access to first-rate ingredients, his encyclopedic knowledge of Italian regional cuisines, and his talent as a chef. But as a businessman, for the precise reason cited above by Sammy, he chooses not to do so at Babbo. This is why, with limited exceptions, we don't see "authentic" Italian restaurants here in the States.

[Jaymes]

But as a businessman, for the precise reason cited above by Sammy, he chooses not to do so at Babbo.  This is why, with limited exceptions, we don't see "authentic" Italian restaurants here in the States.

That's right.

Because in Italy, the "Italian restaurants" cater to Italians.

In the States, the "Italian restaurants" must cater to Irish, Chinese, Swedes, Puerto Ricans, Brits, Indians, Argentines, Japanese, Iranians, Sudanese, Mexicans, South Africans, Australians, Russians, Egyptians.

Oh. And Texans.

Edited December 15, 2003 by Jaymes (log)

[menton1]

In the States, the "Italian restaurants" must cater to Irish, Chinese, Swedes, Puerto Ricans, Brits, Indians, Argentines, Japanese, Iranians, Sudanese, Mexicans, South Africans, Australians, Russians, Egyptians.

Oh. And Texans.

I don't understand--

Do you mean by this that all these ethnicities prefer inferior food? I also think that Italy as a tourist destination probably attracts all of the above...

[Jaymes]

In the States, the "Italian restaurants" must cater to Irish, Chinese, Swedes, Puerto Ricans, Brits, Indians, Argentines, Japanese, Iranians, Sudanese, Mexicans, South Africans, Australians, Russians, Egyptians.

Oh.  And Texans.

I don't understand--

Do you mean by this that all these ethnicities prefer inferior food? I also think that Italy as a tourist destination probably attracts all of the above...

I don't know that "different" necessarily equates with "inferior." I believe that tastes vary. I believe that the average businessperson tends to attempt to cast their nets as widely as possible.

Italian food in the US isn't the only cuisine that suffers from this "dumbing down." Have you read the threads by the Brits that wonder why they can't find decent Mexican food in London?

[vserna]

1.[...]There is also more popular resistance to industrial uniformity of foods in Europe (not to mention genetically modified ones...) than in the USA.

I'm skeptical about the first half of this assertion given what I keep hearing about the mad homogenizers in Brussels. Europeans did elect them didn't they... so they do represent a majority of europeans, don't they?

Don't just believe what you hear about mad homogenizers. Come to Europe and taste what's left after they've homogenized everythiung down to the bone.

Come to European covered or open markets selling fresh produce: La Boquería in Barcelona, La Brecha in San Sebastián, Testaccio or Campo de' Fiori in Rome, Mercato di Mezzo in Bologna, the Halle in Lyon... (Or to the large wholesale markets - Rungis in Paris, Mercamadrid in Madrid...)

See and taste what's available out there. Judge for yourself.

The proof is in the pudding.

Or in the tomato.

[Jaymes]

After considerable reflection regarding this thread, I now see the error of my ways.

Because I have traveled, and lived, in many countries around the world, and because I enjoy true authentic Italian cuisine, I have frequently succumbed to that craving in places as disparate as Hong Kong, Bogota, Tokyo, London, Manila.

Before this thread, I always felt stupid that, so far from Italy, I was hopeful that the food in the so-called "Italian" restaurants would be the same as the Insalata Caprese for which I longed. But, when one is on an extended visit, say some 6 months or more, one's cravings can sometime overcome one's good sense.

Now, however, I understand that I should not have felt that way.

Now I understand that I was quite right to hope for fabulous and authentic Italian restaurants in, say, Hong Kong. That, in fact, according to the people on this thread, the ignorance and inferior tastes and preferences of Americans are the sole reason why so many American "Italian" restaurants are so awful. And it follows, therefore, that as the number of Americans in any given country decreases, the quality of the authentic Italian food increases.

So the fact that I was not served delicious and authentic Italian food in, for example, Mexico City, is undoubtedly due to the fact that my waiter rushed into the kitchen and announced that a "norteamericano" was in the place, and that it was time to dump the ketchup (that they keep hidden away for just such a purpose) into the pasta in order to please her.