Absinthe: The Topic

[Sneakeater]

I hear that even the reputable merchants are watching their respective asses at customs now, owing to a current (hopefully temporary) crackdown (although they continue to minimize your risk by guarantying the shipment).

[Nathan]

indeed...I had an Edouard bottle delayed by a couple days. although it still arrived within a week of my order.

[eje]

[...]

The loopy US laws concerning absinthe can be summarized as follows:

Absinthe is not a controlled substance, like marijuana. It's legal to possess, drink, or serve it.

[...]

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To me the loopiest part of the loopy laws which surround Absinthe/Wormwood/Thujone, is that it is, I guess, completely legal to manufacture and sell, as an herbal supplement, the fairly toxic wormwood extract.

It just boggles my mind.

Ban the tasty stuff, and leave the toxic stuff legal so kids, (and I use that term loosely,) can add it to their coke or Wapatuli.

[jmfangio]

Alright, now that we've established that the ban on absinthe is mostly based on bad 19th Century social science, who do we need to write to in order to get the ban overturned? The FDA? Our Congressman?

[Nathan]

the FDA.

the problem is, someone (a manufacturer) needs to pony up the cash for scientific studies....that's not going to happen.

I suppose it's possible that a review of the literature could convince them...I'll look into it one of these days...

[slkinsey]

Or, I don't know... the FDA could decide to follow what most every European government has decided is okay. Sigh. Of course they won't.

[Nathan]

its possible that given the same scientific literature that the European decisions were based upon, they might give it some weight.

I'll look into it.

[Friend of the Farmer]

If you're looking for a nice synopsis of the European studies, click through to this article recently published online by the National Institute of Health (the NIH is a US govt agency):

Absinthism: a fictitious 19th century syndrome with present impact

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...i?artid=1475830

[MaxH]

To me the loopiest part of the loopy laws which surround Absinthe/Wormwood/Thujone, is that it is, I guess, completely legal to manufacture and sell, as an herbal supplement, the fairly toxic wormwood extract.

It just boggles my mind.

This all reflects a longtime radical contradiction (long predating the recent growth in absinth interest) within USFDA's formal classification of thujone-containing herbs, which I've summarized elsewhere as follows.

US FDA's massive EAFUS index (Everything Added to Food in the US) lists wormwood (A. absinthium) and its products as banned, beyond trace amounts, on the basis of containing thujone, whose 1869 French stigma as toxic was the technical rationale for banning absinthium-flavored liquors internationally (1910-1915). Thujone was later understood to be part of "many essential oils" [1940s source] including of common cooking sage, an ancient food herb with thujone levels like A. absinthium's and classified in the same EAFUS list as having the highest possible safety rating.

More, if you're interested: If you smell a jar of reasonably fresh ground sage, you are sensing camphor and thujone, its two major principles and chemically related (as are menthol from mint and thymol from thyme, by the way). And be careful always to quantitatively define "toxic." Sometimes overlooked by current hobbyists and journalists is that natural thujone's lethal dose (available for decades in reference books in any library) resembles those of other physiologically active components in foods including caffeine (mouse LD50s both about 135 mg/kg), which, like thujone, kills by convulsions in gross overdose. Very gross, because for a human-sized animal that's around 100 cups of coffee for caffeine, or a staggering quantity of cooking sage for thujone, or 150-300 bottles of even thujone-rich absinthe liquor (and 1-2 bottles of any distilled liquor contain a human-lethal amount of alcohol). Besides which, traditionally-made absinthe liquors can lack any thujone in the finished product anyway, and have been boasting of it for about a century. All of this information has been available to anyone who'll read read the literature on the subject, though some of it is overlooked or "rediscovered" lately.

Cheers -- MaxH

[paulraphael]

According to the speaker, Dr. David Weir, it is illegal to sell absinthe, but not illegal to be in possession of it.

And of course, illegal to make it. I have a friend who used to be a high end moonshiner. She only sold her booze to friends at underground parties, for fear of getting caught. Among her creations was a very authentic absinthe, and also opium- and marijuana-based liqueurs.

I can absolutely say that I got a strange buzz off of the Absinthe. It wasn't exactly pleasant ... kind of like alcohol plus cold medicine. But I can see how some people would be into it. There are kids who party with Robitussin, after all.

Her beverages are very high quality. I trust her not to poison anyone with methanol (which evidently happened with some bargain brands of absinthe in Europe, leading to the myth that absinthe-level doses of wormwood could be toxic).

[MaxH]

... methanol (which evidently happened with some bargain brands of absinthe in Europe, leading to the myth that absinthe-level doses of wormwood could be toxic).

A good point worth repeating. Methanol seems to've been a star in the crowded constellation of 19th-c. health problems associated with absinthe and misattributed. More below* from a summary I assembled of absinthe myths. Much of the misattribution story is in Barnaby Conrad's 1988 Absinthe book (reissued 1997), the standard modern US introduction to the subject.

-- Max

* Magnan, the French physician, branded absinthe a convulsive toxin in 1869, securing some of its notoriety (on early work and conclusions considerably discredited later). Some context helps to understand 19th-century stories of absinthe's ill effects. Early firms such as Pernod Fils made a premium product from grape alcohol and quality ingredients, aimed at connoisseurs. As a fad for absinthe developed in France and Europe, many firms entered to compete. Some of them employed industrial alcohol of uncertain composition, others used crude coloring materials for the emerald green hue Pernod got from herb leaves. (Food and drink adulteration were commonplace in those days.**) These shortcuts had health effects separate from those of quality absinthe. Anti-absinthe propaganda and absinthe lore (even now) have not always been particular about the distinctions.

** Get ahold of the common Crown 1961 (English-language) Larousse Gastronomique and look up Reverdir, the "re-greening" of vegetables by blanching with copper salts, which were seriously toxic but gave a fine green color. This, by the way, is typical of many interesting information tidbits absent from later editions of the same book.

[Sneakeater]

I can absolutely say that I got a strange buzz off of the Absinthe. It wasn't exactly pleasant ... kind of like alcohol plus cold medicine. But I can see how some people would be into it. There are kids who party with Robitussin, after all.

←

See. This is exactly how I felt when I started drinking absinthe. But I think the problem was that I underestimated the need to dilute it. That stuff is seriously high-alcohol.

[jmfangio]

Has anyone ever seen this stuff? I just ran across it today, and I can't find much information. I'm wondering how it would be in cocktails that call for a dash of absinthe, such as a Corpse Reviver #2 or a Monkey Gland.

[eje]

Has anyone ever seen this stuff?  I just ran across it today, and I can't find much information.  I'm wondering how it would be in cocktails that call for a dash of absinthe, such as a Corpse Reviver #2 or a Monkey Gland.

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Absente sells wormwood extract to add to their not very convincing Absinthe-a-like.

The idea is the addition of wormwood extract will make it closer to real Absinthe.

This is bullshit.

You can also buy Wormwood extract at health food stores etc.

The problem is that when (real) absinthe is distilled most of the bad stuff in wormwood is left behind, leaving only the scent.

Wormwood extract, on the other hand, is poisonous, and has no real relation to Absinthe.

[jmfangio]

Thanks, Eje - at first I thought it might be a more concentrated version (as, say, Elixir Vegetal is to Chartreuse), but I think you're right. What little information I could find on this emphasized the thujone content, which tends to be code for bogus absinthe marketing. Oh well...the bottle still looks cool.

Edited March 25, 2007 by jmfangio (log)

[Gifted Gourmet]

The Virtual Absinthe Museum

The Virtual Absinthe Museum showcases the Oxygénée collection of

absinthiana - a range of original artifacts documenting every aspect of

the history of La Fee Verte, from its use as a medicinal elixir in ancient

times, to its heyday as a fashionable aperitif in the 19th century and its

prohibition at the beginning of the 20th.

Here you'll find examples of the rarest and most beautiful absinthe

spoons, glasses that glow green because of their uranium content,

absinthe fountains, carafes and pitchers, art nouveau-style advertising

cartons and posters, catalogues, invoices and ephemera from the leading

absinthe distillers, books, journals and newspapers of every description,

propaganda from the anti-absinthe temperance movement, and

counter-propaganda from the equally passionate supporters of the Green

Fairy - the whole fabled history of absinthe is here.

for those who are fans of the drink ...

[eje]

Interesting article in today's NY Times business section.

Absinthe: The American Remix*

Mr. Gurfein asked Mr. Breaux whether he could produce an absinthe that would pass regulatory muster with American authorities — meaning that it would not contain thujone. Mr. Breaux said that would be fairly easy, given his belief that, contrary to popular opinion, 19th century absinthes contained relatively little thujone to begin with — less than 5 parts per million, according to his tests, rather than much higher estimates that have been bandied about.

Still, Mr. Breaux knew that removing thujone entirely might harm the taste. “I had to get a handle on the whole thujone issue without compromising the character and the flavor of the drink,” he said. To accomplish this, Mr. Breaux blended the grand wormwood with green anise and sweet fennel from Europe, instead of using more-affordable imports from East Asia. Using herbs from Europe, absinthe’s native continent, he said, gives the drink an earthier essence.

According to the article, the Absinthe-like product, called "Lucid" will be available starting next month and retail for around $60 US for a bottle.

*Link may require registration and/or payment.

[MaxH]

Wormwood extract, on the other hand, is poisonous, and has no real relation to Absinthe.

Hi eje, I thought I'd re-emphasize technical points long public (decades) but overlooked in many colorful discussions of absinthe even today. (These points contradict some current hobby mythos -- I have even found hobbyists who resist them despite incontrovertible sources.)

1. Thujone is actually about as toxic as caffeine (measured by rodent 50% lethality dose per unit body weight -- available in reference dept. of any public library). In fact, you get a higher fraction of a lethal caffeine dose in a cup of coffee than a bottle of hypothetical thujone-rich absinthe (one where most of the thujone in the starting herbs carries into the final liquor). Quantitative details Upthread.

2. A secondary point, but thujone fraction surviving distillation depends on technique. (Tendency to stay behind is inherent in a slightly higher boiling point of thujone vs. alcohol, IIRC.) Thujone-free absinthe was a boast in advertisements nearly 100 years ago (contradicting assertions that it's a recent discovery).

3. US regulatory status of thujone is not just inconsistent but radically contradictory. Food herbs officially classified today as healthy were found (after absinthe's ban) to have thujone levels like wormwood's. This has been authoritatively public since 1940s (again, more upthread).

Why recent absinthe publicity misses these points might be itself a fruitful inquiry. (If anyone's seriously interested, I have a small library on the subject.) Grossman's mainstream US drinks book already complained 40+ years ago that contrary to myth, alcohol is the main toxic issue in absinthe (book is cited in recent pastis thread here).

Edited April 30, 2007 by MaxH (log)

[eje]

MaxH,

Those points are all good and worth repeating.

My only point regarding wormwood extract, was, that it is a contradiction.

It would be impossible to die of thujone poisoning from consuming Absinthe. Long before you reached a toxic level of Thujone, you would be dead from Alcohol poisoning.

Yet, it would be possible to become very sick from Thujone by purchasing wormwood extract from a "health" food store and dumping a large amount of it into some other beverage. The only thing that would probably save you, would be that it would be undrinkably bitter.

edit - Oh, and in case I am not completely clear, I think it is absurd to ban one product intended for human consumption because it contains a certain substance, yet allow the free sale of the substance itself as an herbal extract intended for human consumption.

Edited April 30, 2007 by eje (log)

[MaxH]

it would be possible to become very sick from Thujone by purchasing wormwood extract from a "health" food store and dumping a large amount of it into some other beverage.

I wonder seriously about this assumpion, eje. Can you quantify -- do you know thujone content of the wormwood extract? (People freely consume, without harm, sage, a very concentrated thujone source; products like instant coffee concentrate caffeine, exhibiting same LD50 as thujone.)

The only thing that would probably save you, would be that it would be undrinkably bitter.

(Also true of instant coffee, as an aside.) In wormwood's case incidentally, bitterness comes chiefly not from thujone but Absinthin, a complex bitter principle coincident in the herb, which can be separated out. (Absinthin lists at a bitterness concentration of 70,000. That's strength above bitter taste threshold -- like the Scoville scale for hot peppers.)

I think it is absurd to ban one product intended for human consumption because it contains a certain substance, yet allow the free sale of the substance itself as an herbal extract intended for human consumption.

This shines light on the issue. Turn it around, look from a different angle of view: If you approach thujone via its presence in cooking sage, USFDA classifies it Generally Recognized As Safe. From this perspective, the earlier classification as dangerous when encountered via another herb (wormwood) is absurd.

Given this context, hobbyist stigma of thujone as "poisonous" is certainly absurd and manufacturers' boasts of thujone-free absinthe are too: from the data it evidently doesn't matter and never did; also it's nothing new. (Why aren't you hearing this more often?)

[Edited minor spelling error]

Edited April 30, 2007 by MaxH (log)

[eje]

Here is a fine description of someone attempting to drink some portion of Wormwood extract, from the Erowid Vaults:

Absinthe Experiment, Wormwood Extract

I mixed a shot of the mixture with lots of water and sugar. It did not turn opaque white, as I read it should. Summing my courage, I started drinking the 16 oz concoction. It had a strong taste much like the smell of wormwood, and made my stomach very queasy. Every sip I took made me gag and make sour faces.

The only thujone content info I can find on the Wormwood-Absente Web Site sez, "This natural chemical is stated to make up 40-90% (by weight) of the essence of wormwood."

Going from the information on the Wormwood-Absente site, it appears that they simply macerate dried wormwood flowers in alcohol, then press the liquid out. I suspect the resulting liquid would indeed be quite bitter.

[MaxH]

If people try to reconstitute thujone-rich absinthe by adding complete wormwood extract to a thujone-free absinthe, they make a fundamental error. The result has Absinthin (extremely bitter) which traditional absinthe doesn't (for at least two separate reasons in the processing!).

No need for archives: I tasted wormwood extract years ago, before any of this publicity. So vividly, lingeringly bitter it was like a look through a terrible door into an unimagined dark pit of the flavor universe. (I don't recommend the experience.)

The only thujone content info I can find on the Wormwood-Absente Web Site sez, "[thujone] is stated to make up 40-90% (by weight) of the essence of wormwood."

Yes that's standard botanical data (also quoted in Baggott's popular 1997 online summary). Essence or "oil" of wormwood will appear, diluted, in a commercial extract. Parallel situation with sage has a similar, slightly lower thujone content in its oil.

Do you see my main point though, eje? Data contradict an artificial intuition surrounding thujone. This intuition lets people perceive thujone as "toxic" more than caffeine or other natural ingredients equally "toxic" but common in much higher doses and even despite accompaniment by alcohol in strengths not comparably "toxic" but actually hundreds of times more so.

[eje]

[...]

Do you see my main point though, eje?  Data contradict an artificial intuition surrounding thujone.  This intuition lets people perceive thujone as "toxic" more than caffeine or other natural ingredients equally "toxic" but common in much higher doses and even despite accompaniment by alcohol in strengths not comparably "toxic" but actually hundreds of times more so.

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Absolutely.

One of my questions about Absinthe, in general, is how popular it would be subtracted from the romance of the Green Fairy and thujone's "bad boy" reputation.

Irritatingly, even the NY Times article listed above traffics in some of the usual tropes about the "thujone high".

And while the article contains the following quote from the producers of "Lucid":

“They wanted to make sure that we were going to market this responsibly, that we didn’t intend to piggyback on some of the myths,” Mr. Gurfein said.

A quick look at their website, with its cartoon faeries, shows how "sincere" they are about that.

I will be interested to compare Mr. Breaux's efforts with Lucid, his Jade products, and other modern Absinthes.

What modern Absinthes do you enjoy, MaxH?

[MaxH]

[the NY Times] article contains the following quote from the producers of "Lucid":

“They wanted to make sure that we were going to market this responsibly, that we didn’t intend to piggyback on some of the myths,” Mr. Gurfein said.

A quick look at their website, with its cartoon faeries, shows how "sincere" they are about that.

I've also seen statements -- by absinthe hobby groups, and in at least published versions of Breaux comments -- proclaiming opposition to myth, yet selective in the practice. I don't say or assume though that it's conscious and therefore insincere. (Intuitions and ideologies often develop whose limits are plain only from outside, so to speak, or via reality tests.)

Nor am I the one to ask about absinthe taste tests (one thing the hobby sites do well, by the way). Preferring the flavors of other drinks (malt whiskys, wines) over these and the pastis family mentioned in the other thread. (I'm more of a connoisseur, not always voluntarily, of technical notions cultivated by hobby enclaves. A side story of 25 years of public Internet fora.)

[Peter Green]

In another thread (post 221) (you'll need to go down to the last third of the post) I've got a write-up on I Love Shanghai's Absinthe Annihilation night. Eight different cocktails, plus shots of white or green.

They were using the French brand Versinthe, which, according to the sites, has a reasonable level of thujone.

I must admit, after about five or six or...I forget....different drinks, I didn't find myself getting too loopy. Nor did I really have any problems getting up on the morning.

But this may be the result of too much everclear in my younger days.

A good bar, and a comfortable alternative to the high-end bars that make up much of the Bund.

Cheers,

Peter