Blue Hill (NYC)

[Charles Smith]

but in the middle of service they look at you like more of a pain in the ass than anything else.

So?

My experience has been the opposite, with great staff seeming thrilled that we chose to trust the chef and the staff. And if they're just acting, fine with me as long as the service is up to snuff.

[tommy]

Perhaps the discussion could be continued in a separate thread, so as not to conflate any issues members might want to address with the wonderful experiences at Blue Hill described in this thread.

and the "not-so-wonderful." don't be so exclusionary. i haven't noticed you practicing what you preach re: moving comments to a different thread when appropriate. that said, i'm shocked that you'd think people would take your advice, unless, of course, you're just kidding. :big laugh thingy:

i have a feeling this thread will go down in history as one of those oft discussed but never revisited egullet threads. that's a shame for blue hill really. nice guys. decent food. great room. exceptionally accommodating to egullet and its membership. but the stuff that surrounds it, vis-a-vis certain posters' attitudes/fondness for the place, seems to have great impact on the perception that people have of the restaurant before, and after, eating there. right or wrong, that's reality.

i have no choice but to return now. double edged sword all around i'd say, as i wasn't going to return.

and i still want the chefs of blue hill to say to us here that people who ask for "chef's choice" receive markedly better meals than those who don't. i'd even settle for a "have an 80% chance of receiving a better meal." that admission wouldn't be good for business, and if that's the fact at every restaurant at that level, then it should just go unsaid, and ruth reichl and tommy and whomever should be able to say "i wasn't blown away" without people suggesting that they did something inherently wrong by ordering from the menu. silliness.

oy, i've typed too many words, and someone will no doubt pick out 7 and attempt to prove my opinion "wrong."

hey, time for coffee. who wants to join me?

[tommy]

but in the middle of service they look at you like more of a pain in the ass than anything else.

So?

My experience has been the opposite, with great staff seeming thrilled that we chose to trust the chef and the staff. And if they're just acting, fine with me as long as the service is up to snuff.

oh look! different experiences. jeez, now how do we argue about *that*?!?!

[Charles Smith]

and i still want the chefs of blue hill to say to us here that people who ask for "chef's choice" receive markedly better meals than those who don't. 

One thing you're missing here, IMHO, is the filter for Food Geeks.

My mother would be much happier at BH, and therefore have a better meal, if ordering off the menu, even if the salmon is 2 days old, as long as that what's she wanted- she wants to know, in advance, what's coming.

I think this group is more adverturous, a little jaded, and wants to be wowed.

[Jinmyo]

but in the middle of service they look at you like more of a pain in the ass than anything else.

So?

My experience has been the opposite, with great staff seeming thrilled that we chose to trust the chef and the staff. And if they're just acting, fine with me as long as the service is up to snuff.

Exactly. It's a business relationship, not a friendship. As long as the kitchen cares for the food, what does it matter what they say to each other about the customer? The customer is a plate. Well, a series of plates. And between the kitchen and the customer are the people carrying the plates. Of course they're performing. That's the job.

[macrosan]

OK, I'm going to ignore SteveP's poor attempts at self-parody :laugh: , and address the other people who have been contributing to this thread, providing several different interesting views and insights, and actually attempting to respond to the points that people (including myself) are raising.

What is your objective assessment of Blue Hill as a fine dining restaurant for people who order off the menu ? I'm interested to know how you rate purely the food, as against Gramercy Tavern, or Babbo, or Le Bernardin, or wherever.

Many members have obviously tried the "Chef's Choice" option, and I'm trying to get a feeling for how much better that food is than the menu option. If anyone is willing to humor my quantitative tendency , I could best understand this if you marked both options out of 10 !!!! But also, it would be fascinating to know if you believe the "chef" option actually moves the whole experience up the scale so far that Blue Hill changes from, let's say "the equal of Gramercy Tavern" to "the equal of ADNY".

[SamanthaF]

FWIW - when at BH earlier this year, we declined the offered chefs selection as it was offered in a very offhand way, and we felt like it was generally offered to everyone.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I find that there is a lot of either/or in this thread and not many shades of grey. And I think that most meals that you get in restaurants fall into the shades of grey category. But Tommy keeps holding on to words like "markedly" when there isn't even an agreement on what markedly means. I also think that Charles is onto something when he says that there are certain among us who want to be "wowed" by the cuisine. It's just that some of us are sometimes wowed by small and unsual flourishes.

I might have told this story in the past but, I have a friend named Sasha who is the best wine taster I know. He always tells the story of how tasting 1947 Cheval Blanc changed the way he looked at $10 bottles of wine(1947 CB is arguably the greatest bottle of wine of the 20th centuey.) From the day he understood what made '47 Cheval great, other wines that shared an attribute, or were reminiscent of it in any way, evn if they cost $10 a bottle, raised their standing in his eyes. And in many ways Blue Hill is like a bottle of wine that displays the attributes of greater restaurants.

Of course to know that one has to have expertise in that area. Not just the ability to tell the difference, but the experience to connect the dots to other experiences in order to calibrate the expeerience. If you read my review of Trio, that is written without a whole hell of a lot of dining experience on my part in those types of restaurants. But if I spent two weeks in Spain getting a primer in that style of cooking, I am sure I would take a somewhat different view of the place because I would see the cooking in a different context. I suspect that a large part of the problem for some people is learning the proper context in which to assess the restaurant.

All of this gets to the nub of this issue which is what a restaurant expresses when you have dinner there. And if you want to eat somewhere that makes a strong statement about food, I don't think Blue Hill will be your favorite. You would probably like Union Pacific or Anissa more then BH. They serve food with bright and bold flavors. But if you are the type of person who wants to be surprised by the chef serving you farm raised pork loin along with carrots and chestnuts that come from black dirt, so they are as sweet as candy, and to prepare them in a way that expresses their natural flavor, you can eat really well at Blue Hill. In fact, when they hit it right, better than any other place in the city I can think of that serves food in that style.

I think there is another aspect to allowing the chef to choose your meal which is that it allows them to teach you about their cuisine. Food is such an awkward way of communicating. We are so much better off when the chef appears and tells you why the food you ate is special. How would I know about the black dirt carrots if Dan and Mike didn't appear at the table after the meal? Or if Chef Nao Sugiyama didn't explain the special Japanese mushrooms while I'm sitting at the kaiseki bar? Or why the "Special Eel" at Sushi Yasuda tastes so special? There is no way better to learn about these things then a chefs menu. But a prerequisite is that you have to want to learn. And in order to do that you often have to dispense with preconceived notions and cede control of the meal to those who have the more knowledge then you.

[macrosan]

I think that most meals that you get in restaurants fall into the shades of grey category. ...All of this gets to the nub of this issue which is what a restaurant expresses when you have dinner there.  And if you want to eat somewhere that makes a strong statement about food, I don't think Blue Hill will be your favorite. You would probably like Union Pacific or Anissa more...

I will try this once more Steve, that's an interesting and well reasoned post, and I have a question. If all you want to do is to prove how much more discerning you are than me, or how much more dining experience you have than me, or if you want to read some subtle hidden motive into my question, then please just don't bother to answer But if you feel comfortable, and when you have time, here is the question.

Are you effectively saying that one gastronome could like "Blue Hill style" cooking, while another doesn't like it ? Are you saying that Blue Hill has an unusual concept of cooking (what you early called "teasing flavor out of excellent ingredients") which produces subtly flavored food, and that this might simply be not to the taste of someone who just prefers bold flavors ? And that both views are valid ?

[g.johnson]

What is your objective assessment of Blue Hill as a fine dining restaurant for people who order off the menu ? I'm interested to know how you rate purely the food, as against Gramercy Tavern, or Babbo, or Le Bernardin, or wherever.

It's difficult to compare BH with other restaurants because they're trying to be much more innovative. Even though I often don't like their food I do admire their ambition. But to humor you, I'd give BH on menu 3, BH chef's choice 5, Gramercy 4, LeB 7, Babbo 7.

Edited December 2, 2002 by g.johnson (log)

[Jinmyo]

g. johnson, um, what's a 10 for you?

[stefanyb]

g. johnson, um, what's a 10 for you?

Probably his own food, and from what I've heard, deservedly so.

[SobaAddict70]

*sigh*

think of it this way people,

repeat after me:

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Julia Child cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Jacques Pepin cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Charlie Trotter cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Alice Waters cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Escoffier cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Jean-Paul Palladin cooked for me (if he were still alive, that is).

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Gray Kunz cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Tom Colicchio cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Madeline Kamman cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Roger Verge cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Heston Blumenthal cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Anita Lo cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Marcus Samuelsson cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Madhur Jaffrey cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Mario Batali cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Daniel Bouloud cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if JGV cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Alain Ducasse cooked for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if I was Jinmyo's personal dinner guest for the rest of my life (and the next life, and the next, and the next ad infinitum...)

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Steve Klc managed to duplicate his wonderful dinner from the dinner thread about 35+ pages back or so, just for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if Suvir Saran pulled out all the stops just for me.

I believe I would eat a better meal, if (insert your favorite chef or famous name here) cooked for me.

Repeat until your tongue falls off. Drink a warm chamomile tisane and sleep for eight hours.

Check the thread tomorrow morning and NOT by hitting the Refresh button every five seconds.

SA

edit: added Jinmyo to the list of all-stars

Edited December 2, 2002 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[g.johnson]

g. johnson, um, what's a 10 for you?

The best two meals I've had recently are at Gordon Ramsay and Manoir aux Quat' Saison, both of which I'd give a 9 (I know I'm in a minority on MaQS). I'm reserving 10 since I suspect I should leave room for Michelin 3 stars in France.

But I have wierd tastes. I'm the only person in the known universe (excpet Yvonne -- lucky we met) who remains unmoved by the Danny Meyer experience.

[robert40]

Well this is my account of the fine meal I had last Sunday at Blue Hill. Plus a few opinions I may have on where this discussion is going a little left field.

This was my first dinner at Blue Hill and my son and I had a early reservation 5.30 as I already drove down from Albany and yet had to drive to Pittsburgh after dinner, My reason for skipping wine.

Menu

Raw bay scallops with Herring Roe

Fluke on a bed of crabmeat with parsley sauce

Grouper, brussel sprouts chestnuts

parsnip chervil sauce

Turkey A heritage breed with salsify and

oyster mushrooms

Apple Terrine gingerbread ice cream

Quince parfait ?

Concord grape financier

I was under the impression we had a prearranged tasting set up by another eGulleter but as my son and I sat down our waiter handed us menus and I realized he knew nothing of this tasting.

Maybe it was a miscommunication I'm not sure, but I found myself in a awkward situation as I stated my affiliation with eGullet the waiter stated he would be glad to have the kitchen cook us a tasting menu.

Our first course of raw bay scallops tasted as fresh as the sea. The simplicity

and cleanness of this dish was breath taking.

Our next course was fluke on a bed of crabmeat with parsley sauce. A very good dish with a lightness to the sauce that I enjoyed.

Our next course was grouper, brussel sprouts with chestnuts and a parsnip chervil sauce. A great dish, the chestnuts offered crunch against the soft grouper, and the brussels sprouts sharpness rounded out the dish.

The main course was Turkey A heritage breed with salsify and oyster mushrooms. This course was the tour de force This was a special free range turkey that was very lean yet moist, I will never look at Thanksgiving the same again. I am sure at this time of the year it is not easy to excite people with turkey but it really had to be tasted to be appricated.

Next course was a Apple Terrine gingerbread ice cream, this was the one that knocked the boots off my son, he is still talking about it.

Quince parfait and the Concord grape financier were our desserts that we shared, the details of the quince parfait escapes me for I wasn't taking notes, but they both were terrific and a perfect end to our meal.

Next our server Micheal invited us into the kitchen to meet Dan, at this point I felt like a kid in a candy store, as I am in this business myself. Dan was very busy and as I didn't want to take up much of his time, however I could feel the sense of pride and care the staff took with there work.

Just a note on service, Micheal our server was one of the best I've seen not the least bit pretentious and could not have been more knowledgeable about each dish that was presented to us. If he ever decides to spent his summer in Saratoga employment wouldn't be an option.

Onto my opinion about the discussions that have taken place here within the last 24 hours. I can not speak for Dan or Mike but as a person in the business I know that I would find great joy in creating tasting menus for eGulleters as they appricate and enjoy fine food, but I find it very hard to believe that the success of there restaurant is just based on there tasting menus and not there regular menu, it is by far there regular menu that has gained there reputation and the tastings are just icing on the cake. Yes I do agree that at times a chef is inspired by an ingredient and that dish can usually turn out awesome.

Dan and Mike have been friends of eGullet and I am not sure if knocking there regular menu for thousands of people to read only based on an opinion or two is something they would appricate. We may not as eGulleters be greeted with enthusiasm and labor intensive tasting menus if we continue to brow beat this topic.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Glyn is an especially hard scorer isn't he.

I would say that my two meals at Blue Hill where I chose my own menu (one with Dan & Alex and one with Dan & Mike) the meals rated 5 and 7 respectively. But I would say that since I have been letting them do the driving the average meal is between 7 and 8 with certain dishes meriting as much as 8 1/2 to 9. But there have been some stinker dishes too which were down around 6. But this isn't to say that if I ordered off the menu my meal wouldn't be terrific. I just haven't done it for awile.

I think the issue you raised about different preferences is a more complicated issue. Sometimes I feel that lack of experience and preference are confused. Often when I say that, people mistake it for a statement that says I am better then you. And while that might ultimately be the case , it really isn't a competitive statement. That's because in my experience, and this is particular to Blue Hill, in order to enjoy a meal there the way I enjoy it, it helps to have to have eaten and enjoyed your meal in a certain type of restaurant in France. But if you haven't done that, your assessment of the meal is somewhat impaired. Of course this doesn't discount people who just won't like that style no matter what. But as I said in my previous post, my kishkes tell me that more people on the whole don't get it for the reasons I outlined above then there are people who wouldn't like it if they had a better understanding of the context they cook in. But once again, the best way to overcome this is to put yourself in the chef's hands.

I should also add that the tasting menu at certain restaurants is a worse situation then just eating off the regular menu. This can be the case at Union Pacific. The food there is so packed with flavor that a tasting menu can be a wearing experience. So I don't think there is a set rule. But in general I still think that your best bet is the chef's tasting menu. I can't prove it but, my kishkes tell me that retaurants view people who order them with higher regard then people who walk in and order your basic three courses.

Robert40 - I think it is a bad thing to try and quash discourse because an owner of a restaurant might not like the criticism he gets on eGullet. If anything we are fair here. And if many of the people here are having a problem with ordering off the menu at BH then they should be able to say so without being concerned about it. In fact I am sure Dan & Mike would want to hear it because if anything, they would want to improve that aspect of their business. Isn't that why we are here? For some silly reason, I hope chefs the world over read what I write and take it seriously and improve their restaurants as a result.

[marcus]

Steve P, I hate to disagree with your kishkes, but I think that your points are a bit arbitrary. I don't think that experiences of certain types of restaurants in France has anything to do with appreciation of Blue Hill. I've had all of those experiences many times over, I absolutely get Blue Hill and what they are attempting, I just don't like it very well. Mao, who is the single most negative poster on Blue Hill, has certainly written extensively on his experiences in France. I don't think that its good form to tell people that they are wrong because your superior experience makes you more qualified to judge. We have to assume a level playing field for this discourse and arguments need to stand on their own without reference to selfstated superiority. As to tasting menus versus a la carte, this has been debated many times and varies by restaurant. I would assert that at Bouley, for example, the a la carte dishes are more elaborate and better prepared. I accept that this is probably not the case at Blue Hill. In France, my experience is that a la carte is superior to the tasting menu at a majority of fine restaurants.

[cabrales]

Mao, who is the single most negative poster on Blue Hill

marcus -- While I do not purport to speak for Mao, I direct you to Mao's subsequent visit to BH, and his updated, positive assessments (under the Tomato dinner thread; highlighting added by me):

Since I moaned about my first and only meal at Blue Hill in my prior post, I thought it was time to **offset** that post with brief impressions from a meal this weekend.  I went with a date, and while the tomato like tasting menu was not on offer (I enquired) plenty of tomato based dishes were.  I stuck to this route with the exception of a corn soup.  The cucumber soup amuse was **extremely delicate** and complex with hints of other textures which I cannot recall since I was gazing into my date's eyes.  Tomato Terrine, with a Confit of Heirlooms and Tomato Sorbet was **superb**.  The ability of the kitchen to **tease enormous amounts of texture and flavor** without resorting to the use of a lot of oil or fat of any kind was **extremely impressive to me this time**.  My date ordered skate and I ordered the salmon in a tomato reduction.  The salmon was **perfectly cooked** as close to rare as I have ever seen with the tomato puree adding a citrusy and sweet layer to the give of the salmon's flesh.  This preparation was **rivaled** only by a more complex and richer preparation of salmon enjoyed at Le Bernadin a few months ago.  We finished with a split dessert of peaches in some kind of cream and peach sorbet, which was **lovely**. ... Overall, a **great meal** that allowed me to appreciate the kitchen's **virtues**.  I **intend to go back more often** as the season’s change

I am in the midst of a deeply amorous process, which is wonderful, but my usually bright and clear food memory seems to be temporarily dulled.

http://forums.egullet.org/ibf/index.php?ac...&f=4&t=9816&hl=

[marcus]

Cabrales -- Interesting post, I'm glad that you pointed it out. It appears that Mao was in a frame of mind to have loved any dinner set in front of him that evening, but perhaps he would like to elaborate himself. We all need to remember, as we fight our eGullet battles, that there are more important things in life than food.

[robert40]

I do not believe the average diner at Blue Hill is the poached salmon ladies and I also don't believe there average customer is a eGulleter.

Lets face it food is a big part of our life, people like Cabrales,Bux and Steve have forgot more about food then alot of chefs know.

But I'll be honest sometimes I read post on this board and say to myself My God these people know didley squat about the restaurant business

Yes chefs enjoy people like eGulleters because they can take that extra step and know it will be receptive

Do'es anyone here believe if Dan and Mike were to do a grape tasting menu everynight for all to enjoy they would be in business long?

We eGulleters would love it for about six months to the lights go out.

I dont believe the menu needs improvement it is shooting toward the norm.

Which is the couple on a date looking for a nice meal before hitting the clubs,they are happy with the menu and they are the ones that made it a success.

Remember the needs of the many out way the needs of the few.

[ajay]

I would like to make a few small points and I humbly beg your indulgence if they are not on point (or generally ridiculous):

1. For the record, I would like to clarify my experience at BH: i said that it was "uneven" becausee some dishes were quite superb (I remember some of the best shrimp that I have eaten anywhere), but other dishes were merely ok, and I was expecting more. That said, I thought the service was attentive, and Dan was kind enough to take a few minutes to chat with me--something i very much enjoyed and appreciated, so I belive that I would agree with cabrales that my views of BH are on the whole good.

2. (Much as I might prefer not to admit it), I think Steve P is on to something when he makes the case that one will appreciate the cuisine at BH better if one is able to situate it in context. Others have made a similar point about astrance in Paris, and I believe they are both correct--to a degree. I enjoyed astrance very much without having experiences with the breadth and depth of a bux cabrales or steve p. But, it is also probably true that I did not appreciate the uniqueness of taking in a soup flavored with rye bread, or enjoy the delicacy and intricate flavor of 'ravioli' made with avacado and stuffed with crab meat as they would have, but both dishes (the ravioli more than the soup to be sure) still spoke to me, and I was still able to enjoy my meal.

Similarly at BH, I was able to appreciate my meal as being above average in absolute terms, but not having tasted the appropriate cheval blanc (one of the most apt analogies i have seen on this board), I am sure I don't appreciate the full extent of the greatness of BH. That might mean by definition, I will never enjoy a meal there as much as Steve P, even if we are served the same progression of dishes and wines (even if this is not very likely) because there will be an added dimension for him that I will simply not grasp. In my view, however, this fact is not a reason for me to not explore mike and dan's cuisine further, as I think it is still capable of taking me to great heights, but in the end this is a subjective judgement so I can understand why marcus (and possibly mao) may not reach those hieghts even though they have sampled the cheval blanc.

Now that I think about it (sorry for going off topic here), I think a part of why I did not enjoy my visit to l'arpege may well have something to do with my ignorance of the context of passard's cuisine, though there were enough other flaws in the experience that lead me to think that even steve p (I meniton steve because he has been one of arpege's most vocal and articulate boosters, and it was his lyrical review that convinced me to try the place) would have been disappointed. On ther other hand, perhaps the reason we didn't enjoy l'arpege is that we didn't put ourselves in the chef's hands. A question that will likely never be resolved as I am unlikely to shell out the cash to dine there again (Arpege was the single most expensive restaurant we visited in France).

3. For my part, I am not convinced as a general rule, that I will eat better by putting myself in the chef's hands at a restaurant where I'm not known in some way. For whatever reason, I have been unable to communicate my passion for food sufficiently to the waitstaff and therefore by impliation to the kithcen. Moreover, my relatively young age and uneven (especially compared to members of this august group) food knowledge probably do not qualify me as a 'supertaster' (excellent formulation, Tommy), and so I worry about getting the two day old salmon that no one else wants that night. But given the fact that other members have not mentioned phenomena of this sort, I am either 1 paranoid and no such thing occurrs or 2 a taster/diner of such low quality that my experiences will necesarrily be divergent from the food intelligensia (in a good way, to be sure) that post on this board.

Edited December 3, 2002 by ajay (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

I don't think that experiences of certain types of restaurants in France has anything to do with appreciation of Blue Hill.

Well I don't see how you can say this because this is the exact reason I like the place. And I think the same is true for Cabby and possibly Bux. More then any other restaurant I know of in NYC, BH performs in the spirit and philosophy of a Parisian bistro moderne. And if you like that experience, I think BH can evoke it for you. But again, it's much stronger an evocation when they choose the meal then when you order it yourself.

I don't think that its good form to tell people that they are wrong because your superior experience makes you more qualified to judge. We have to assume a level playing field for this discourse and arguments need to stand on their own without reference to selfstated superiority.

This issue is always a problem on bulletin boards where people with different levels of expertise participate. And here's an example of how disparate the opinions are based on the level of knowledge people have.

Charlie Trotters is such highly regarded for a reason - because it it a truly memorable experience with outstanding innovative cuisine and polished service - not because that the reviewers and the general public have low standards...thats absurd. Im sorry Ct didnt blow you away, Steve, but it continues to blow me away each and every time and for others that havent seen the pics of my second to last visit, here it is:

That was a quote from Awbrig's response on the Trotter thread. And while I believe that Awbrig legitimately feels that way, and I'm happy the guy loves the place, and I kind of liked the place myself, both you and I know that he wouldn't be saying any of that if he had eaten a bunch of good 3 star meals in France. The problem is, there is no way to explain that to him without pointing out that there is a better vantage point then the one he is looking at it from. And invariably that is where the discussion will lead on that thread.

Ajay - I think I'm going to have to adopt you.

Edited December 3, 2002 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[tommy]

ah. longer posts. no surprise.

who's right? perhaps we'll never know.

[cabrales]

I'm not sure that I am prepared at this point to respond to the various issues that have been raised recently in this thread (nor that I agree with positions taken by various members). I'd like to reiterate that Blue Hill is a very special restaurant that has a social and community awareness, a desire to take care of diners and a consistency between articulated and adopted philosophy that should be commended.

Edited December 3, 2002 by cabrales (log)

[Jinmyo]

Gee, Steve. I don't know what to tell you, but if you'll go back and read your own post, I think you'll agree with the experts that there is little liklihood of awbrig not being insulted by how you phrased that point.