Blue Hill (NYC)

[Bux]

What I contend is that I don't want to eat that way all the time.

[Bux]

The country boy just has to butt in here.

Can any of you go out to eat, have a good time, and enjoy the experience without turning it into an intellectual exercise?

Define good time.

[cabrales]

I find the decor rather elegant . . . . The proximity of the tables says "bistro."

I would agree that the BH decor is elegant (and, being burgundy-driven in some places, much to my liking). I would also agree that the tables are somewhat close together, but that is not an aspect that has bothered me in the least. The reason that a bistro analogy is fundamentally flawed is that the *cuisine* far surpasses what a Parisian bistro (moderne or not -- as Steve P referenced), could offer. What typical bistro in Paris can provide the type of subtle and balanced (for me, those are very good attributes) cuisine available at BH? In fact, I'm not sure there is a restaurant in Paris that readily comes to mind as offering a similar cuisine.

[Wilfrid]

Bux, I don't know if you misread me. I was saying that I wouldn't want to eat the Blue Hill style of cuisine all the time, not that I expect to dine superbly all the time. There is a place in the world for very soft, delicately cooked food, and some people apparently think that the peak of gastronomic perfection. I weary of it sometimes.

[marcus]

I also have difficulty with the bistro moderne analogy. Although many bistro moderne straddle the line between bistro and restaurant, Blue Hill is clearly on the restaurant side in terms of elaborateness of preparation. It is also well into the restaurant price range. I would also characterize the cooking as restrained American rather than French. Although I am aware of a few exceptions, most French restaurants, including bistros moderne, target a more oppulent style of cooking utilizing more fat and more sauce. If I were to be served a dish from Blue Hill while sitting at a restaurant in Paris, I believe that I would find it incongruous. To be precise, my examples of bistro moderne are Epi Dupin, Regalade, Au Bon Accueil. Steve P may actually have other examples in mind.

[Bux]

Bux, I don't know if you misread me.

I don't know if I misread you either, but you were not the butt of my post. I don't find that you need to categorize or rank restaurants that way others do. BH is s superb restaurant for some of the people most of the time, a very good restaurant for many of the people most of the time, an excellent choice for some people some of the time and a poor choice for some at times. For example, it doesn't suit me well for lunch--it's not open.

I don't really care if you like it or not and that's not personal. I just don't think it's all that interesting to know if someone likes a restaurant or not. What is interesting is to read what one likes or dislikes about a place. I think you've added to the store of useful information that might help others decide if and when to try Blue Hill, although as I've said, it seems as if one is going to feel like a rank outsider here unless one has been there and has an opinion. The "any publicity is good publicity" school holds that it doesn't matter what you say about an artist, work of art or business, as long as you keep talking about it.

What I said was that the proximity of the table says "bistro." The paper table cloths (over real cloth) also say "bistro." Neither speak as loudly as the food, perhaps and thus The first time diner may not get a clear message of what to expect, which may be exactly what the chef/owner wants. As Marcus notes, the distinctions between restaurant and bistro are getting fuzzier by the day, not only in NYC, but in Paris. Artisanal, which is so clearly modeled to look like a brasserie and which does so quite successfully, calls itself a bistro. I would never refer to it as a bistro.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I've never eaten in Bon Accuiel or L'Epi Dupin so I can't speak about those places. And Regalade is more like a traditional bistro with a cooking twist. But places like Les Allobroges and the original Eric Frechon restaurant were more in line with my thinking. I guess Christian Constant is at the extreme high end for that type of place. But most of the bistro moderne that popped up in the 90's was as a result of the poor economy in France. And what they did to make their food interesting in a smaller environment, i.e. bistro environment, is apply modern cooking technique. Hence the moderne. But the term "bistro" was applied correctly, as it is in this case as well, as a way of describing the scope of the cuisine relative to the top restaurants in town. And to me the NYC bistro equivelents are Blue Hill, Anissa, Fleur et Sel, Prune, possibly Jarnac and maybe a few others. Of course some are more restaurant like then bistro like. But you can say the same thing when comparing the old Eric Frechon with La Regalade or L'Epi Dupin. But what tips it for me is the cooking technique that BH applies to the cuisine. They are interested in using the same technique that they might use at Arpege. But the scale of the meal needs to be brought into line with the type of restaurant it is. And maybe this is a distinction without a difference but, firther to Marcus's point about BH being a restaurant and not a bistro, many of the "bistro moderne" in Paris aren't really bistros. They are really restaurants.

Does this make any sense?

[marcus]

Steve P -- I believe that I understand your point much better. I think that the term bisto moderne is being used in two ways, firstly for updated bistro food, this is the way that I use it and hence my examples, and secondly, your way, to refer to restaurant food pared back so that it can be offered more inexpensively and served in a bistro like setting. Les Allobroges is a good example, a very plain restaurant out in the 20th which serves surprisingly well prepared restaurant type meals, inexpensively.

The other thing that I think that I understand is that you are not trying to directly compare Blue Hill to Parisian bistros moderne, but are making an analogy:

top NYC restaurant is to Blue Hill as top Paris restaurant is to bistro moderne

[Wilfrid]

... it seems as if one is going to feel like a rank outsider here unless one has been there and has an opinion. The "any publicity is good publicity" school holds that it doesn't matter what you say about an artist, work of art or business, as long as you keep talking about it.

I would certainly be interested in seeing comparable detailed discussion about New York restaurants other than Blue Hill. There have been some pretty thorough reports about some other places recently, but not much discussion has developed.

If I was being picky, I would advise Steve P. that there doesn't seem to be much that's moderne about Jarnac. But then, I'm not the picky sort.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Marcus - Yes you got it exactly. Have you been to Les Allobroges recently? I haven't been for years. But when I went they served me one of the greatest bistro dishes I ever had. A caramelized potato cake that was wrapped in bacon and then slabs of Foie Gras were laid across the top like icing on a cake. It was sinful

Wilfird - If you can find another restaurant that is as accomodating as Blue Hull, and which makes special menus whether by offer or on a regular basis, people will talk about it. But part of the reason that there is so much chatter about BH is that there is dissent about the experience. And most of what is written has dissenters on one side, and assenters on the other side saying to the dissenters, try to look at it from this perspective. We used to have the same discussions about Craft but those were reconciled when they served me their chef's menu . But in reality, I can't think of another place where there is as much to talk about as those two places.

As for Jarnac, they do some non-traditional stuff there. How about the NY Strip dusted in zatar and served on a bed of zatar dusted home fries? Or the Ribeye served on a fried potato cake and a bed of arugula and topped with a fried egg and then doused with truffle oil? Of course they have cassoulet etc. but there is an edge to certain dishes that strays far away from trad. bistro.

[marcus]

Steve P -- I had dinner at les Allobroges last December which was my last visit to Paris. I liked it a lot, but it was at the end of 2 weeks of heavy eating and my gall bladder was starting to rebel, so I didn't appreciate it as much as I might have. I don't have a clear recollection of the dishes, but I would certainly recommend the restaurant and plan to return.

[Wilfrid]

Fair enough on Jarnac, Steve. I ate there a few weeks back, and thought the menu was quite traditional as usual. I may just have overlooked the kind of dishes you mention. I am struggling even to remember what I ate (no, not the cassoulet).

[cabrales]

I've never eaten at the places mentioned in Paris as being potentially bistro modernes (except for La Regalade, which is much more like a traditional bistro, but with better food). Thus, I can't comment. In technique, as previously suggested by others, BH is more ambitious and more successful than Paris bistros.

As for why BH gets discussed more on the board, it's in part because more members eat there than at many other venues.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I've never eaten at the places mentioned in Paris as being potentially bistro modernes

You should because I think you might like some of them. The cooking can be really good in a small way. Sort of like Blue Hill .

[SamanthaF]

As for why BH gets discussed more on the board, it's in part because more members eat there than at many other venues. 

I'm stunned that BH has generated so much discussion

I don't think it is because more people go there, people are reading this thread because of the battle of wills going on.

[sladeums]

Of course I'm open to liking it. But the two times I ate there I found the food to be slightly homogenized. Like a lite version of genuine Italian.

You got the tourist menu...

..ask the chef to cook for you, you'll have a much better meal.

[marcus]

In my view, comparing Blue Hill to Paris bistros, in general, is an apples and oranges comparison. These restaurants have different objectives and satisfy different needs. Bux has often elaborated very well on this subject of refined versus soul satisfying food.

With regard to Wilfrid's plaint as to why so much, in fact too much, attention is paid to BH versus other, probably more deserving restaurants, it is not quite because more members eat there, but because the direction of eGullet, particularly the France and NYC boards, is driven by a very small number of posters. This is unfortunate, but when as few as three of the most influential and aggressive posters are focused on a single restaurant, it is sufficient to dominate the direction of discourse.

Where are you Fat Guy. We need you to restore us to a more balanced and rational path.

[cabrales]

the direction of eGullet, particularly the France and NYC boards, is driven by a very small number of posters.  This is unfortunate, but when as few as three of the most influential and aggressive posters are focused on a single restaurant, it is sufficient to dominate the direction of discourse.

marcus -- If you perceive the described reason for the focus on BH, and for the content of the France and NYC forums, would not the appropriate channel for addressing those concerns be to encourage a larger number of members dining in France and in NY to post more about their meals (as opposed to invoking the participation of another *few* members)?

I hope we can have increased participation, that more and more members would write more frequently about their restaurant experiences and other views.

Edited December 3, 2002 by cabrales (log)

[tommy]

yes appropriate channels of course.

[La Niña]

marcus, with all due respect, anyone is welcome to post as vociferously and as frequently as they wish. If people wish to make the posts of the few less significant, the answer is to post and participate with more frequency and more intensity. Anyone here can be "influential and aggressive" if they have the time, inclination, and ability.

[Jinmyo]

The country boy just has to butt in here.

Can any of you go out to eat, have a good time, and enjoy the experience without turning it into an intellectual exercise?

Define good time.

That's why Robert makes the big bux.

[Wilfrid]

I think I agree with Cabby on that point. I am feeling misunderstood today. I am not complaining about the amount of attention on Blue Hill. I am also somewhat in the dark about any battle of wills going on here. BH's cuisine has been well worth discussing. I'd like to talk more about some other restaurants, not necessarily less about Blue Hill. I've reported on a number of other restaurants recently, and I wish more people would do the same. I don't know who counts among the three "influential and aggressive" posters, but there are a lot more than three people driving the NY board.

I would love to read Marcus's comments, or anyone else's, on Fleur de Sel, Jean-Georges, San Domenico, or any of the other NY restaurants recently described here.

[Steve Plotnicki]

The reason there are more posts about BH then other restaurants is because they offer a menu that is constantly changing. Aside from meals that are chosen and prepared by the chefs, they also had a tomato menu, a concord grape menu, and maybe a few that I'm missing. I probably ate there 4 times over the last six months and I don't think they ever repeated a dish.

[cabrales]

marcus -- If you are comfortable doing so, could you please consider discussing in what sense you made reference to "aggressive" posters?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Cabby - I believe that your incessant parsing, and the obsessive attention you pay to details, including your asking guest chefs more then two questions, makes you an overaggresive poster.

Edited December 3, 2002 by Steve Plotnicki (log)