Wine Pricing -- get it from your competitors!

Varmint · November 10, 2003

I subscribe to an email notice from Carolina Wine Company, our top-notch local wine store, and noticed this hilarious tirade at the bottom:

Note to Retailers on Our List
I know a lot of you are on this list, and I applaud you for your diligence. I sent our Champagne offer out Saturday, and by 10:00 a.m. TODAY, you had all apparently already called our wholesalers to complain about what we’re selling our wines for! In turn, they of course called me. Wow. I mean, to both sell your own wines and worry so much about what we’re selling, you guys must really be working hard. I can’t even remember when I had the time to pay such attention to what other stores in town were doing.
It would be nice, though, I suppose, if you’d just call or email me directly with any problems you might have with our prices. (Oh crap, I probably don’t have time for that either.) In any case, I believe YOU (and your customers) will now get a better price for these wines. (No need to thank me.) And don’t worry. It may be a bit irksome that we’re so much cheaper. But you really won’t lose that many customers as a result. Otherwise, we’d have them all already, don’t you think?
By the way, before you call suppliers and wineries to complain about what WE’RE charging for wines, it’s probably worth checking what they sell for everywhere else. Wine-Searcher is probably the best tool for this. A year subscription to their “pro” version is only $24.95, and I’ll be happy to pay for one – for every retailer or wholesaler in the State – if it will keep you off my back. (I just can’t promise you anonymity if you take us up on it.)

Now, the owner of this place is a Stanford law grad, so he's well versed in antitrust and defamation law, and he doesn't have anything to worry about. But I thought this was so funny that I had to share it.

Mark Sommelier · November 11, 2003

I subscribe to an email notice from Carolina Wine Company, our top-notch local wine store, and noticed this hilarious tirade at the bottom:
Note to Retailers on Our List
I know a lot of you are on this list, and I applaud you for your diligence. I sent our Champagne offer out Saturday, and by 10:00 a.m. TODAY, you had all apparently already called our wholesalers to complain about what we’re selling our wines for! In turn, they of course called me. Wow. I mean, to both sell your own wines and worry so much about what we’re selling, you guys must really be working hard. I can’t even remember when I had the time to pay such attention to what other stores in town were doing.
It would be nice, though, I suppose, if you’d just call or email me directly with any problems you might have with our prices. (Oh crap, I probably don’t have time for that either.) In any case, I believe YOU (and your customers) will now get a better price for these wines. (No need to thank me.) And don’t worry. It may be a bit irksome that we’re so much cheaper. But you really won’t lose that many customers as a result. Otherwise, we’d have them all already, don’t you think?
By the way, before you call suppliers and wineries to complain about what WE’RE charging for wines, it’s probably worth checking what they sell for everywhere else. Wine-Searcher is probably the best tool for this. A year subscription to their “pro” version is only $24.95, and I’ll be happy to pay for one – for every retailer or wholesaler in the State – if it will keep you off my back. (I just can’t promise you anonymity if you take us up on it.)
Now, the owner of this place is a Stanford law grad, so he's well versed in antitrust and defamation law, and he doesn't have anything to worry about. But I thought this was so funny that I had to share it.

Yes, it is funny. But, how much cheaper could they be selling the wines for? CWC is a retailer also.

Craig Camp · November 11, 2003

Very funny! But Mark is right - how much cheaper can they be? Any good examples?

dlc · November 11, 2003

A recent email offer from CWC, Guigal Coted du Rhone 6.99/btl. Here it is 9.99 to11.99. 1995 Grand Dame and Dom Perignon 99.95/btl

fresco · November 11, 2003

That notice is brilliant marketing.

Varmint · November 11, 2003

Here's the "champagne" email they mentioned:

Champagne & Chateauneuf
A pretty good one-two punch here. The most popular (and actually good) Champagnes, like Veuve Clicquot "Yellow Label" and Pol Roger "White Foil", at the best prices anywhere near North Carolina. And both wonderful $20 Chateauneufs and collectibles like the 2001 Charvin. Buy enough of these and you can just hole up in your house and skip the holidays. Happily. ALL PRE-ARRIVALS. (But all due before Christmas).
Champagne:
1. NV Georges Gardet Brut Speciale $19.99 net
Our US exclusive, I believe, and our best Champagne under $30. Period. This is HUGE in England where it sells for 20 to 25 POUNDS, and is known as "the poor man's Krug." And why not? It's from a very small, quality-conscious, older house in Chigny-les-Roses, which owns 7 hectares of prime vineyards, and supplements them with purchases from long-term suppliers in the Cotes-des-Blancs and Montagne de Reims. This superior cuvee is from all premier and grand cru chardonnay and pinot noir, aged four years on its lees, and bolstered with 15% reserve wines aged in 100-year-old wood casks. This ain't no ordinary non-vintage brut.
Yet, it should be $40. And yes, having NO competition and still selling it for $20 breaks EVERY rule of retail. But that's why you love us so much, isn't it?
2. NV Pol Roger "White Foil" Brut $24.99 net
As always, an impeccable Champagne. This was reportedly Churchill's favorite bubbly. (He named his racehorse Pol Roger.) And though his idea of sending old battleships into the Baltic in 1939 may have been a bit unwise, Churchill did know his drinks. I'll certainly drink this. And I'd rather pay the $25 we charge than the $40 (or more) others in our area charge. Wouldn't you?
3. NV Veuve Clicquot "Yellow Label" Brut $29.99 net
The world's most popular Champagne. Over 8 million bottles a year sold. And most sold for a lot more than $30. (Including all of them sold around here.)
Chateauneuf-du-Pape:
1. 2001 Charvin Chateauneuf-du-Pape $69.99 net
A Parker 94-97. Now almost impossible to find (There isn't a single US retail listing on Wine-Searcher.) We had to pay a pretty penny for this. (Over 50% more than Parker's retail estimate.) Do you care? We didn't. I figured: Get the wine now (while I can), and whine about how much it costs later.
2. 2000 Bosquet des Papes Chateauneuf-du-Pape $19.99 net
And average it out with this one. A Parker 90 - at $32! Parker says: "Ripe and full-bodied, with outstanding concentration as well as purity, this sexy, layered Chateauneuf will provide enjoyment over the next 12-15 years." Where else can you buy an outstanding vintage of a great French Classic like this - and one that's "sexy, layered and full-bodied" to boot! - for only $20?
3. 2001 Marcoux Chateauneuf-du-Pape $34.99 net
One of Chateauneuf's finest modernist producers. This is a Parker 92 (at $45). Of course, at a slightly more exalted level, we have a bit of the Marcoux Chateauneuf VV for $199.99.
4. 2001 Clos des Papes Chateauneuf-du-Pape $44.99 net
Parker just bumped his score for the 2000 Clos des Papes up to 96 points (eRobertParker, April 2003), and everybody (Parker, Tanzer, Clos des Papes itself) believes this 2001 is even better! In fact, Parker's barrel rating for the 2001 is the highest he's EVER given a Clos des Papes: two points higher than the 2000, higher than the 1990 (now also 96 points) and even the 1978 (now 99 points). Will the 2001 turn out even better than these? Probably over time. Just make sure you have some when it does!

DaleW · November 11, 2003

That notice is brilliant marketing.

Exactly. The guy doesn't suffer from excessive reticence (there was a funny - to me- thread on another board with an over-the-top venomous reply from him when CWC was accused of gouging).

I've never actually bought from CWC, though their prices on some Austrian stuff is certainly tempting. But they do seem to have some hyperbole about how good their pricing is.

Is $25 for Pol Roger really such a deal in NC? Glad I moved!

Mark Sommelier · November 11, 2003

The "really good Champagnes like Veuve Clicquot "Yellow Label" ".

Laughable.

Varmint · November 11, 2003

The "really good Champagnes like Veuve Clicquot "Yellow Label" ".
Laughable.

C'mon, Mark, go back and quote that part properly. He said, "The most popular (and actually good) Champagnes, like Veuve Clicquot 'Yellow Label'". This is CWC's way of saying that this champagne is passable. :wink: This place, despite its email hypberbole, knows its wines.

Carema · November 12, 2003

$29.99 is at or below cost for VEEuve Cleequot in most markets. If this guy is indulging in the slimey world of loss leaders (take a loss but lead them in) then I do not blame his competition for complaining. Also in the viperine world of wine distributing, when a whoselsaler makes a deal with one person but not another it tends to make the one who was not the recipient of the deal a little ticked off. Much of the time I ask my reps to gather the pricing within the market here if I want to pick up something that I know will be around town. If I can come within a couple of bucks of that I am fine. If my price if off by $20.00 bucks because some schmucky salesguy threw in a bathtub of free goods in exchange for a twenty, forty, sixty case drop well then- there is other wine to taste and buy. And if someone tells me that something has no market play and then I am in the local grocery store and it is stacked to high heaven (this only happened once)- they gots problems.

Varmint · November 12, 2003

These guys are anything but slimy. They really work hard to sell very, very good product at a top price. Subscribe to their emails, any you'll see.

Sorry, I just have to be a shill for the local vendors. :rolleyes:

Carema · November 12, 2003

These guys are anything but slimy. They really work hard to sell very, very good product at a top price. Subscribe to their emails, any you'll see.
Sorry, I just have to be a shill for the local vendors.

I am sure they are great. And I understand your defending them- I am a small local merchant where I am too. But I do not need to subscribe to their emails, I have allready paid for a year's subscription to RP online.

ctgm · November 12, 2003

$29.99 is at or below cost for VEEuve Cleequot in most markets. If this guy is indulging in the slimey world of loss leaders (take a loss but lead them in) then I do not blame his competition for complaining.

Don't know what prices you guys have to pay in tax but the cost price (or rather the one a very close supplier gets) of Veuve is about €17. I am sure that there are different prices for different companies. Then mark-up, shipping and tax makes up the rest.

Mark Sommelier · November 12, 2003

$29.99 is at or below cost for VEEuve Cleequot in most markets. If this guy is indulging in the slimey world of loss leaders (take a loss but lead them in) then I do not blame his competition for complaining.
Don't know what prices you guys have to pay in tax but the cost price (or rather the one a very close supplier gets) of Veuve is about €17. I am sure that there are different prices for different companies. Then mark-up, shipping and tax makes up the rest.

In this market the wholesale price to restaurants of Veuve Clicquot Yellow Label is $32. The deal price for pouring it by the glass is $27. This is much higher than all the other large Champagne houses who usually let the NV Brut go for around $20.

badthings · November 12, 2003

$30 retail is what I paid for Veuve Cliquot in High School (when I wasn't drinking malt liquor). So that is indeed a good price these days.

At the time, I congratulated myself for finding a good deal on a relatively unkown brand. I guess, compared to Haffenreffer, I was sort of right.

LJC · November 12, 2003

"In this market the wholesale price to restaurants of Veuve Clicquot Yellow Label is $32. The deal price for pouring it by the glass is $27. This is much higher than all the other large Champagne houses who usually let the NV Brut go for around $20."

These prices are pretty close to NY as well, but which champagnes are you suggesting are $20? At least in NY most of the large houses are comparable to clicquot.

Mark Sommelier · November 12, 2003

"In this market the wholesale price to restaurants of Veuve Clicquot Yellow Label is $32. The deal price for pouring it by the glass is $27. This is much higher than all the other large Champagne houses who usually let the NV Brut go for around $20."
These prices are pretty close to NY as well, but which champagnes are you suggesting are $20? At least in NY most of the large houses are comparable to clicquot.

In the past year I have used Roederer, Taittinger, Bollinger and Pol Roger by the glass. All were $19.99 a bottle except Bollinger which was $22. I have pretty much switched to Recoltant Manipulant Champagnes for my by the glass program. They are comparably priced, too.

Edited November 12, 2003 by Mark Sommelier (log)

LJC · November 12, 2003

Craig Camp · November 12, 2003

These guys are anything but slimy. They really work hard to sell very, very good product at a top price. Subscribe to their emails, any you'll see.
Sorry, I just have to be a shill for the local vendors.

I will second that. Carolina Wine Company has a tremendous reputation - well earned.

Craig Camp · November 12, 2003

$29.99 is at or below cost for VEEuve Cleequot in most markets. If this guy is indulging in the slimey world of loss leaders (take a loss but lead them in) then I do not blame his competition for complaining.
Don't know what prices you guys have to pay in tax but the cost price (or rather the one a very close supplier gets) of Veuve is about €17. I am sure that there are different prices for different companies. Then mark-up, shipping and tax makes up the rest.
In this market the wholesale price to restaurants of Veuve Clicquot Yellow Label is $32. The deal price for pouring it by the glass is $27. This is much higher than all the other large Champagne houses who usually let the NV Brut go for around $20.

The retail price of Veuve Clicquot Yellow Label in Italy is Euro 26. That includes a distributor and retail mark-up. Even considering the extra shipping costs and the $1+ a bottle sin tax imposed on sparking wine in the USA - there seems to be a large discrepancy.

mnebergall · November 12, 2003

Veuve Clicquot NV Yellow Label sells for $29.79 at Total Wine in Northern Virginia: www.totalwine.com

and for $31.99 at Calvert Woodley in DC: www.calvertwoodley.com

Carema · November 13, 2003

We pay extra for the extra sugar they add to the USA Veuve. The European brut is much drier than the one they ship to the American market. And yes You can get it cheap in places. But that doesn't mean anyone is making a profit on it. Typically in retail, Veuve can be one of the prodcuts lowest in profit margin in a store. We make 6% on ours. That sucks. It is the one product you MUST have and cannot make any money on. What a racket!

Edited November 13, 2003 by Carema (log)

Carema · November 13, 2003

LJC Posted on Nov 12 2003, 12:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have pretty much switched to Recoltant Manipulant Champagnes for my by the glass program. They are comparably priced, too.
He means Champagne produced by a grower of his or her own grapes, not purchased grapes. Well I hope that is what he means. Would not want to speak for Mark S out of turn.........
PS I am too restarded to quote more than 1 person at once sorry.....

Edited November 13, 2003 by Carema (log)

Mark Sommelier · November 13, 2003

We pay extra for the extra sugar they add to the USA Veuve. The European brut is much drier than the one they ship to the American market. And yes You can get it cheap in places. But that doesn't mean anyone is making a profit on it. Typically in retail, Veuve can be one of the prodcuts lowest in profit margin in a store. We make 6% on ours. That sucks. It is the one product you MUST have and cannot make any money on. What a racket!

Caro Carema,

Kind of like Kendall-Jackson Vintner's Reserve Chardonnay, right? Where are you ? Still at $9.99?

Mark Sommelier · November 13, 2003

LJC Posted on Nov 12 2003, 12:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have pretty much switched to Recoltant Manipulant Champagnes for my by the glass program. They are comparably priced, too.
He means Champagne produced by a grower of his or her own grapes, not purchased grapes. Well I hope that is what he means. Would not want to speak for Mark S out of turn.........
PS I am too restarded to quote more than 1 person at once sorry.....
Yes, Carema,
You got it right. A grower/producer in Champagne. These wines tend to be more "wine like". They are not all about bubbles and yeast. There is terroir, subtlety, grace, elegance. RM wines deliver more consistently than the large house crap.

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