Mix (with Doug Psaltis as chef de cuisine)

[Felonius]

Let me get out the gasoline here.

Why does it have to follow that any criticism or skepticism of Ducasse and his products is agenda-driven or political? Maybe, just maybe he doesn't bat a thousand? Is that unthinkable? What, the guy shits diamonds? Anything less than adulation and awe of Ducasse, Doug Psaltis or anything associated with them sure seems to bring out the attack, or, worse still, lap dogs, at least here. When I read things like "Mix is cool" (read: if you don't like Mix, you're not cool), "dishes that are the best of their kind", "Ducasse's kitchen team...would be the envy of any kitchen, anywhere in the world", "the guy is one of the greatest chefs in history - the heir apparent to Escoffier" (better not tell that to Point), "AD/NY is as good a restaurant as America has ever seen"...well, I just have to wonder about getting an objective view.

Fire away.

Pour away!

A few thoughts:

I'm not out to glorify Alain Ducasse, nor do I think he is the be all end all of the culinary world.

I really could care less about food world politics and egos. I just love to eat exceptional food wherever I can find it.

I don't believe there is some "conspiracy theory" thing going on against Ducasse.

Everyone has a right to their opinion. I certainly expect and have respect for wide differences in opinions from knowledgeable people in realms as subjective as food, art or music.

I am not surprised that someone may not enjoy Alain Ducasse's cuisine, whether it be at ADNY or Mix.

I can only speak from my experiences at both ADNY and Mix, as compared to other restaurants in NYC (and I'm reasonably sure I eat at these places at least as often as most professional food critics).

However......

For a knowledgeable person to dismiss the food at Mix or ADNY (or Daniel or Jean-Georges for that matter) as anything less than a very serious and thoughtfully executed performance at the high-end of the culinary spectrum is nonsense. They may not like the food, they may not agree with how it is envisioned, prepared and presented - no problem. That is understandable given the wide range of personal tastes.

What I find reprehensible in several ADNY and Mix reviews is a recurring underlying theme of "this Alain Ducasse guy has hoodwinked the food world, and is basically a pompous guy trying to sell the Emperor another set of new clothes." I can't believe that anyone could logically come to this sort of conclusion if they spent some quality time eating at his restaurants and observing what goes on in his kitchens.

Why do these "professional" critics so often digress from thoughtful discussions about the food at ADNY or Mix, into silly and unfounded criticisms like the ones mentioned in my previous post (from the Gourmet review)? I have no idea why, but they seem to be doing it over and over again.

Edited January 27, 2004 by Felonius (log)

[jbraynolds]

Really????? I must be reading a different thread. Grimes, NY Magazine, NY Post and Gourmet have all been pilloried in the Mix and Ducasse discussions for not seeing the greatness that is apparently so obvious to some here. Or am I imagining this? Also, please, name my straw men. I haven't seen you blow down my major "straw man"yet - the lower-tier, cheap wines in the pairing being sold for top-shelf prices. While you're doing that, I guess I should continue to list assorted sycophantic bows to the Ducasse Empire as well as borderline (and some over the border) attacks on the credibility, knowledge and integrity of those who disagree with the opinion that Ducasse and all his works are holy.

Maybe I'm missing the parts where you say "gee, maybe you have a point" when Ducasse is criticized. If I am, please tell me where that might be.

[Fat Guy]

JB, I don't think we need to go down the path of repeating what's already been written so many times: anybody can simply scroll back and read the posts where several of us have repeatedly said that it's perfectly legitimate to criticize Ducasse, to not favor the food at his restaurants, etc. If you can't see the painfully obvious reality that there's something else going on here -- something that moves beyond criticism into agendas, politics, and truculent ignorance -- I don't think there's any way to help you see it.

As your sole self-proclaimed mission on these Ducasse threads seems to be to engage in a one-man flamewar, I can't really see the point in addressing any more of your arguments.

[Felonius]

Maybe I'm missing the parts where you say "gee, maybe you have a point" when Ducasse is criticized. If I am, please tell me where that might be.

I'm not interested in a flame war here. I do think that others posting here have acknowledged thoughtful criticism of Ducasse, and offered those of their own.

For example, I still think that the $125 wine pairing at ADNY discussed here sounds like a blunder in terms of quality and price.

I think Mix has some odd quirks in terms of design that detract from the food and/or dining experience. Probably a bit too much of Chodorow's influence for my taste (those damn unisex bathrooms for example).

I agree with Bux that the Nutella thing is rather silly.

I think the dessert program at Mix is not on par with the competition at places like Jean-Georges, Daniel, Cafe Boulud, Town, etc.

What I do not agree with is the continued assertions by several food critics that Mix is at best a lackluster dining experience, and at worst an egotistical farce. This is just plain wrong in my humble opinion.

Mix is competitive in terms of quality and execution of food with the top tier of NYC restaurants.

Edited January 27, 2004 by Felonius (log)

[sammy]

I have not yet been to Mix but was wondering how you might compare it to WD-50, if you've been there yet.

[Louisa Chu]

The first time around he imported, intact, an authentic French temple of gastronomy - an exact duplication in price, service and pretentiousness of his three-star flagships iin Paris and Monaco.

How the fuck are we pretentious in Paris? Because we're French? Gastronomic? It just pisses me off when I KNOW how hard we work - KNOW what we're like as people - hello we're human - and KNOW how hard we really try to give every single client a perfect experience - but hello again we're human - and we're just dismissed as pretentious. Like it's a given.

I have not seen this review - I have not dined at Mix yet - but when someone just tosses off a comment that Paris/ADPA is pretentious, I just think they've got something to prove - and that I'm not getting a straight story.

[Felonius]

The first time around he imported, intact, an authentic French temple of gastronomy - an exact duplication in price, service and pretentiousness of his three-star flagships iin Paris and Monaco.

How the fuck are we pretentious in Paris? Because we're French? Gastronomic? It just pisses me off when I KNOW how hard we work - KNOW what we're like as people - hello we're human - and KNOW how hard we really try to give every single client a perfect experience - but hello again we're human - and we're just dismissed as pretentious. Like it's a given.

I have not seen this review - I have not dined at Mix yet - but when someone just tosses off a comment that Paris/ADPA is pretentious, I just think they've got something to prove - and that I'm not getting a straight story.

Amen.

[Bux]

The first time around he imported, intact, an authentic French temple of gastronomy - an exact duplication in price, service and pretentiousness of his three-star flagships iin Paris and Monaco.

How the fuck are we pretentious in Paris? Because we're French? Gastronomic? It just pisses me off when I KNOW how hard we work - KNOW what we're like as people - hello we're human - and KNOW how hard we really try to give every single client a perfect experience - but hello again we're human - and we're just dismissed as pretentious. Like it's a given.

I have not seen this review - I have not dined at Mix yet - but when someone just tosses off a comment that Paris/ADPA is pretentious, I just think they've got something to prove - and that I'm not getting a straight story.

Amen.

Was I being too subtle when I said:

quoted earlier from the review (emphasis mine):

...Ducasse has made many of the same mistakes that plagued his original foray across the Atlantic.  The first time around he imported, intact, an authentic French temple of gastronomy - an exact duplication in price, service and pretentiousness of his three-star flagships iin Paris and Monaco. 

I don't know that I'd use "stick up his/her ass" to describe my problem with that assessment, but it didn't lend credence to what followed..

Where I come from, well maybe where I've arrived, an authentic temple of gastronomy is something to be cherished. I assumed it was implicit in the original article that the author was saying "we sneer at fine French food and service, It's pretentious." It's odd that he ends his review by crediting Ducasse's brilliance as beyond dispute. Huh?

I could also discuss our reactions to the dishes Mrs. B and I had. They were different from Cheses'. Mrs. B found the pot in which the barbeque "personal pot" was served made it uncomfortably awkward to eat the dish, but she loved dish in parts and as a whole as did I. The chicken pot pie was unusual. Cheses describes the filling as goopey. I wondered if I might have also thought that a year ago, but eating some very interesting traditional Spanish goopey stews left me with a taste for that consistency and possibly even a longing. Thus I approached the dish with a different perspective. I'm not impressed with reviewers who are limited by their tastes and dismiss what they don't like. A pejorative comment designed to play to the peanut gallery doesn't tell me what I want to know. For all the mistakes I saw at Mix, I have to give them credit for not pandering to anyone's tastes and I need to see that understanding in a review before I'll find the rest of the review particularly useful. Sometimes a critic can have too much confidence in his own taste.

[Felonius]

A pejorative comment designed to play to the peanut gallery doesn't tell me what I want to know.

I wonder if the allure of "playing to the peanut gallery" is a factor behind some of the criticism of Ducasse. I'd guess that many people love to hear that places they can't afford or at which they can't readily reserve a table aren't all that great, or are not worth visiting. Sort of a fox and the grapes thing. A reviewer may be tempted to dismiss a place like ADNY in order to appeal to certain audiences. The critic thus becomes a a culinary Robin Hood, using his/her wisdom and expertise to save common guys like us from pompous, money-grabbing Frenchmen like Ducasse.

Am I venturing too far into conspiracy theory here?

I mention this because of some information regarding "Consumer Reports" magazine I discovered many years ago. It seems that there was actually pressure on the testing staff to give lower ratings to certain "premium" or expensive products than comparable "bargain" products, regardless of respective quality or performance of said products. Apparently, this was done in an effort to boost magazine sales. The editor tried to explain his way out of it by saying "We're in the entertainment business, first and foremost". What happened to objective ratings?

It was for this reason that a brand such as Haagen-Daz ice cream might receive lower ratings than a brand such as Kroger or Breyer's - when few blind tasters would ever agree with this conclusion.

Edited January 28, 2004 by Felonius (log)

[Fat Guy]

A pejorative comment designed to play to the peanut gallery doesn't tell me what I want to know.

I wonder if the allure of "playing to the peanut gallery" is a factor behind some of the criticism of Ducasse.

The critics are the peanut gallery.

[Cpalms]

Peanut gallery??? I think you mean peanut butter, like fantastic stuff they serve at mix...Had a really enjoyable meal there lastnight. Mix is not a restaurant I would normally frequent but it was a weird night anyway and with all the critics having bashed it and Fat Guy and others positive about it, It seemed to make sense that I give it a try. Im glad it did because I think we "got it"

a few highlights...We did not do the off menu tasting as had been suggested here as we were not that hungry, I got the sense that we barely tested the kitchen....next time i'll crank it up a bit

Clam Chowder - rich delightful really clammy in a good way

dry aged L bone - just hair short of lugers, its that good, no better steak in manhattan in my opinion..mega aged flavor

Ice cream tasting - Chocolate, caramel, vanilla, with cream and meringue...I love Ice cream, I LOVE ice cream tastings...better than Gramercy, hearth..the chocolate and caramel are distictly richer, more full of flavor with a better constitency than the chocolate and caramel I.C. during the old days of claudia fleming at GT

The service was good, unintrusive, do you think Mix is a training ground of sorts for rising stars in the AD empire?, seemed that way to me, in a good way....

Loved the sommelier, I usually don't get along with these guys, they tend to annoy me and I have just enough wine knowledge to get me in trouble. A bit hard to understand, but made a suggestion for a barbera (i'm on a big italian wine kick) that we really enjoyed and was cheaper than the barolo I wanted. good sign. He went on to tell us about AD's new place in Tuscany, this place will definately not be my style but I appreciated conversation. as we were walking out he showed their sweet little cellar, sorta like a mini version of the one in Circo in Vegas, without the showgirl on a trapeze, unfortunately....

Sorry to be longwinded, but I stepped out of my comfort zone and really enjoyed Mix, It deserves far more exploration on my part, thanks to the times, NY Mag, etc for screening out all the putz's...I think I like Alain Ducasse.

[Felonius]

I had dinner on Friday night at Mix, and my date and I ordered the tasting menu which arrived as follows:

Clam Chowder Amuse

Duck "salad" with quail eggs

Scallops with cauliflower reduction/puree and black truffles

Seared Toro (tuna belly) with chanterelles and assorted wild mushrooms

Bison tenderloin "Wellington"

Mix chocolate cake and assorted ice creams

I believe all of these items have already been well-discussed on this thread, so I won't go in to great detail here. Is there a more sastisfying dish in NYC than the Mix clam chowder? I enjoyed every dish, and believe that Mix only gets better with each visit (this was visit #11 since opening in September). The few service quirks have been ironed out now, and I feel that Doug Psaltis is reaching his stride in the kitchen with these new specialty dishes. The bison Wellington was as good a dish of its type as I've ever had. If I could figure out how to cook bison that tender I'd be eating it at home twice a week. Each dish was a work of art both in terms of flavor and presentation. Everything was cooked perfectly, and service was exemplary - attentive yet unobtrusive. The desserts still don't thrill me, good but not as exciting in my opinion as some of those offered by the competition.

I was especially pleased by the wine service. I asked the sommelier, Bertrand, to pair wines by the glass with each course as he saw fit. He was kind enough to split a tasting, so that my date and I wouldn't have to be carted out at the end of the meal. He chose an interesting assortment of wines, all of which matched extremely well with the individual courses. I never drink red wine with fish (I know it can be done, but I don't generally enjoy it), but Bertrand talked me into a red to go with the tuna. It turned out to be a great choice, something from Spain I believe, but I forgot to write it down. The toro was served over a bed of wild mushrooms and a rich reduction, which would have overwhelmed almost any white except for perhaps a Grand Cru Burgundy. My favorite wine of the night, Niebaum-Coppola Cabernet Franc 2001, was a perfect match for the bison. I had no idea that Coppola even made a 100% Cab Franc. I suspect it may be a limited realease wine. Tremendously smooth and accesible for a young wine, with great depth and concentration. This wine made my day. This pairing worked beautifully in complementing each dish, as well as allowing us to sample a wide variety (5 wines in all, including a Jurancon for dessert) of wines without getting too clobbered. This pairing was in my opnion a good bit more interesting than the one at ADNY mentioned in another recent post, and was about half the price. Bravo Bertrand!

I really couldn't have been more pleased overall with the meal at Mix. Now I just need a few weeks of rehab to recover from this luxurious food overdose. To Egulleteers contemplating a visit to mix, I'd recommend trying the bison if it's available.

[Bux]

Felonius, I enjoy red with many fish dishes, especially those with gelée de viande or red wine in the sauce. I enjoy a light red with grilled salmon as well. I also tend to think of rare tuna as "meat." It more than any other fish seems to call for red wine in my mouth.

Based on the comments here, I'm curious to try the clam chowder at Mix. Based on my lunch there and whatever one can deduce about a kitchen from that, I was surprised to read a comment about the chowder being overly rich in cream. I had the famous New England clam chowder at the Grand Central Oyster Bar and found that absurdly rich in cream and decidedly lacking in flavor, although full of clams, yet often recommended (not by me).

[Felonius]

Bux, the clam chowder at Mix has a fairly rich cream base. However, it's not as thick as many versions of New England clam chowder I've had over the years. I think the tiny brunoise (sp?) of vegetables along with several varieties of very fresh clams give it this version a lot of flavor. It's deceptive dish, in that it seems very straightforward, almost simple, yet I suspect the method behind it is anything but simple.

I know many people enjoy red wine with fish, especially richer fish like salmon or tuna. As for me, the fish more often than not leaves an unpleasant "fishy" taste on my palate when paired with most red wines. This tuna/red pairing at Mix was one of the few exceptions in my experience. I've occasionally enjoyed salmon with a light red such as Pinot Noir, but in general would still prefer a full-bodied white with the richer fish dishes. However, I can't afford what they're asking for Montrachet or even a top Meursault in NYC restaurants, so that pairing remains a distant dream unless I'm dining at home. I really ought to experiment a bit more with the red wine fish combo.

[docsconz]

I never drink red wine with fish (I know it can be done, but I don't generally enjoy it), but Bertrand talked me into a red to go with the tuna. It turned out to be a great choice, something from Spain I believe, but I forgot to write it down. The toro was served over a bed of wild mushrooms and a rich reduction, which would have overwhelmed almost any white except for perhaps a Grand Cru Burgundy.

Poetic justice would have made the Spanish wine a Toro as well

[jogoode]

Bux, the clam chowder at Mix has a fairly rich cream base.  However, it's not as thick as many versions of New England clam chowder I've had over the years.   I think the tiny brunoise (sp?)  of vegetables along with several varieties of very fresh clams give it this version a lot of flavor.   It's deceptive dish, in that it seems very straightforward, almost simple, yet I suspect the method behind it is anything but simple.  

Felonius,

FG describes the components of the chowder on the first page of this thread:

Mix's clam chowder, which I've now enjoyed twice, is the best I've ever had by a significant margin. I can't stop thinking about it. Finally, I had to break down and ask Psaltis what the hell he was doing to make it so good. "It's very traditional and typical," he said. Yeah, right. Upon cross examination, he revealed more than a few differences between Mix's clam chowder and what you'd get at Legal Seafood. Mix uses a combination of razor clams, little necks, cockles, and manila clams. The various components of the chowder -- such as the potato, onion, and celery mixture -- are cooked separately. When it comes time to serve the dish, a cook heats up a portion of the chowder base, thins it with clam juice (from the aforesaid clams), and mixes in a puree of geoduck clam bellies. Vegetables and bacon are added at the end, and the whole thing is served with -- get this -- house-made oyster crackers, puffy, full of herbs, and still warm. Yes, very traditional and typical.

It sounds unreal, and since you recommend it as well as Steven, it and the bison will definitely be my first dishes at Mix.

[Felonius]

Bux, the clam chowder at Mix has a fairly rich cream base.  However, it's not as thick as many versions of New England clam chowder I've had over the years.   I think the tiny brunoise (sp?)  of vegetables along with several varieties of very fresh clams give it this version a lot of flavor.   It's deceptive dish, in that it seems very straightforward, almost simple, yet I suspect the method behind it is anything but simple.  

Felonius,

FG describes the components of the chowder on the first page of this thread:

Mix's clam chowder, which I've now enjoyed twice, is the best I've ever had by a significant margin. I can't stop thinking about it. Finally, I had to break down and ask Psaltis what the hell he was doing to make it so good. "It's very traditional and typical," he said. Yeah, right. Upon cross examination, he revealed more than a few differences between Mix's clam chowder and what you'd get at Legal Seafood. Mix uses a combination of razor clams, little necks, cockles, and manila clams. The various components of the chowder -- such as the potato, onion, and celery mixture -- are cooked separately. When it comes time to serve the dish, a cook heats up a portion of the chowder base, thins it with clam juice (from the aforesaid clams), and mixes in a puree of geoduck clam bellies. Vegetables and bacon are added at the end, and the whole thing is served with -- get this -- house-made oyster crackers, puffy, full of herbs, and still warm. Yes, very traditional and typical.

It sounds unreal, and since you recommend it as well as Steven, it and the bison will definitely be my first dishes at Mix.

That does it. I'm on my way back to NYC tonight, and I think I may have to stop by the bar at Mix for some clam chowder!

[jogoode]

How casual is the dress at Mix? Maybe I'll stop in tonight for chowder, too...

[Dave the Cook]

Hell, they let me in wearing tennis shoes, a black fedora and a ladies' jacket.

[slkinsey]

Hell, they let me in wearing tennis shoes, a black fedora and a ladies' jacket.

The really funny thing about this is that it's true. I was there.

[jogoode]

Hell, they let me in wearing tennis shoes, a black fedora and a ladies' jacket.

The really funny thing about this is that it's true. I was there.

Good, because I'm wearing tennis shoes.

And I have to ask about the ladies' jacket: why, Dave, why?

[Dave the Cook]

Hell, they let me in wearing tennis shoes, a black fedora and a ladies' jacket.

The really funny thing about this is that it's true. I was there.

Good, because I'm wearing tennis shoes.

And I have to ask about the ladies' jacket: why, Dave, why?

Sam won the bet.

[Dave the Cook]

In the interest of full disclosure, I should add that the deal was that the loser had to wear a dress, but I hadn't packed one, and none of Sam's would fit me.

Also: Sam wore nice shoes, but they were untied.

[jogoode]

Also: Sam wore nice shoes, but they were untied.

You rebel!

[Msk]

I went to Mix last night and enjoyed it thoroughly. Its a swanky room though a bit too modern for my taste. The food, however, was innovative and fantastic.

Our waiter was great, perhaps trying to overserve a bit, but better that than nowhere to be found IMHO.

The wine service was a bit pretentious. The sommelier was not overly friendly, nor helpful, though we did end up with a nice selection.

I ordered the Mix of Mix which includes 1 First course, 1 main, and a dessert. I am not a dessert person so I inquired if I may substitiute the dessert for 2 firsts (since the menu really looked appetizing to me). The waiter pleasantly replied, "Not a problem, we do it all the time!)

I would have gone for the off-menu tasting but my friend was not up for the experience. When I asked about the tasting menu the waiter was more than willing to help me figure the best combination based on which menu items piqued my fancy (or work around any dietary restrictions I might have--which are none). I will be back to do this.

As per recommendations here I ordered:

Clam chowder - WOW! Best clam chowder I have ever had. Very creamy and luxiours with a sort of subtle sweet finish. A portion larger than I needed, but I finished it all. The more I ate it, the more layers of flavors that opened up.

Off menu -Chicken breast / Foie Gras roulade - Not really sure how this was prepared but it was almost as if it was a poached flattened breast of chicken wrapped around pate. The foe gras had more of a creamy texture than seared foie gras (though the waiter did say it was seared). This tasted great, but lacked a certain textural contrast. The flavors were still compelling and vibrant.

Bison wellington - Very tasty, wonderful tender meat in a flavorful pastry. Perhaps too much "Fleur de Sel" garnish in a bite or two.

I think FG was right on in his description

Msk