Mix (with Doug Psaltis as chef de cuisine)

[jwagnerdsm]

Living out here in God's Country means I'll probably never get to Mix. But I read the Grimes piece in the Times last week and thought it sounded interesting. Nice piece, Mr. Shaw. It gave me a nice perspective on the food. This is meat and potatoes country, although there is a healthy number of very good bistros, a couple of very good places for sushi, plenty of Asian, etc. That being said, places like Mix and Trio, with their test tubes and petri dishes and postage stamp sized pizzas, seems a little odd to me. Amuse is something the presidential candidates do, it's not a small appetizer, at least in Iowa. So I feel a little cheated -- and a little baffled -- when I read about foams and cones and all these other trends. Your review gave me a little taste of what I was missing. Thanks much. It's the kind of writing that makes egullet great.

corrected spelling

Edited October 28, 2003 by jwagnerdsm (log)

[Fat Guy]

In turn, it's comments like yours that make all the work that goes into writing a couple of thousand words seem worthwhile. Then again, eating the food makes it seem worthwhile too!

I'd point to one major conceptual difference between places like Trio and places like Mix, though. At Trio, the mission is deliberately avant-garde. A lot of what they do at Trio is about separating flavor from form, and the food is supposed to trigger reflection. What Mix is doing is much more conservative. There's nothing challenging about the food. It's really just about refinement.

So, for example, Mix has a BLT on the menu. And when you get it, you actually get a BLT. The difference between this BLT and the one you get at the local diner has to do mostly with the ingredients and the level of care in preparation: the Mix BLT starts with a really good piece of multigrain bread, which I think may come from Balthazar or maybe Le Pain Quotidien -- something excellent, in any event -- toasted and spread with freshly made herb mayonnaise, topped with good lettuce (baby Romaine hearts, I think), super-ripe red and yellow tomatoes, and three-inch-wide paper-thin slices of exceptionally crisp, smoky bacon, all served open-faced in a collapsing-tower arrangement.

Whereas, if Trio did a riff on a BLT it would most likely involve denaturing several of the ingredients and combining them in unusual ways: a bacon foam, freeze-dried lettuce, bread pudding, etc. I'm not saying this is exactly what Trio would do, but it's the general approach.

+++

Here's what I have on hours-of-operation at Mix:

Lunch

Monday to Friday 11:30am to 2:30pm

Dinner

Monday to Saturday 5pm to 11pm

Sunday 5:30pm to 10:30pm

Bar

Monday to Friday 11:30am to 12am

Saturday 5pm to 12am

Sunday 5:30pm to 11pm

68 West 58th Street

(Between Fifth and Sixth Avenues)

212.583.0300

[Suvir Saran]

Here's what I have on hours-of-operation at Mix:

Lunch

Monday to Friday 11:30am to 2:30pm

Dinner

Monday to Saturday 5pm to 11pm

Sunday 5:30pm to 10:30pm

Bar

Monday to Friday 11:30am to 12am

Saturday 5pm to 12am

Sunday 5:30pm to 11pm

68 West 58th Street

(Between Fifth and Sixth Avenues)

212.583.0300

Mixed in the post replying to the Iowan, I found the hours of operation.

Thanks for the information.

[jogoode]

Who do you think you are Shaw? !

Well, you've sold me. It's so rare to hear an informed opinion on a restaurant after NY Mag and the Times get through with it. There really is no other venue.

And 15 in the kitchen!? ADNY has, what, 20?

[Fat Guy]

I can't remember how many cooks they have in the ADNY kitchen but I'm almost certain it's less than 15. It may be more like 9 on the line, plus a few in the pastry area (which, at ADNY, is separate from the regular kitchen). But they're serving 65 a night over a long stretch of time, so the whole labor ratio is completely different. For example the garde-manger work they do at ADNY just couldn't be done anywhere else, in a multiple-sittings context. You have salad items at ADNY that have something like 50 different elements that have to be very carefully layered and precariously stacked -- it could take 10-15 minutes to plate one of these things. One cook can at most do two at once, so if six people order something like that as part of a tasting they have to pull two cooks from the line so three people can work for 15 minutes to make it happen. And of course that means every cook needs to be trained on every dish -- it's a pretty high level of commitment. Pretty much every line cook in the ADNY kitchen -- or at least the ones on the critical stations -- could easily step into an executive chef position at a pretty good restaurant. Indeed, Psaltis was a line cook at ADNY since opening day. I don't think Mix, or any other kitchen in town, is necessarily operating at that level of staffing, but they have very good people and lots of them. Also of note: ADNY has a single brigade that is unchanging from meal-to-meal. Even when the restaurant was doing lunches two days a week, the brigade simply did a double on that day. Mix is doing dinner seven days and lunch five days, so I assume there are at least two full sets of those 15 cooks (though the lunch brigade may very well be a little smaller). The 100 employees at Mix are never all going to be on duty at once. The 60 or so employees at ADNY are pretty much all on duty during every meal for which the restaurant is open. By contrast: I'm pretty sure at Jean Georges they do something like 175 covers with fewer than 10 in the brigade -- not sure about Daniel and the other four-stars.

[Kim WB]

Is this about Mix or about you dissing (reviewing) William Grimes, Adam Platt and Gael Greene?                  

Suvir, in all fairness I feel that Steven's review included many paragraphs substantiating his opinions on the food, and only a reference or two to the current STAR controversy surrounding the restaurant...and which is certainly relevant enough to include in the review.

Steven, I really wanted to point out the simple effectiveness of being direct and upfront about Mix's flaws, and then weighing them against it's attributes...that approach endears one to the reviewer, and makes them more likely to relate and trust the reviewers opinion. It's actually out of the Sales 101 book, but is used much too infrequently by writers who are opining. It's a pretty transferable approach, for example here's part of your Mix review, translated to Real Estate Speak.

" The home we're about to see meets most of the criteria you are looking for. It's in the location you want, with the acreage that's important to you. It's structurally in great shape, only the best contractors worked on this home. Of course,t he price reflects this care of construction. However, there are a few flaws which you'll need to consider when making your decision to buy. The bathrooms need renovation, and there is only a two car garage. While these can be remedied, I know not everyone wants to deal with the hassle of architects and renovations..however, if you're the type of person who can see through these minor flaws, this house can be a great value" It's the kind of home you'll look forward coming home to each and every day."

The review also had great content, but I specifically wanted to point out how effective the balanced approach can be.

[Louisa Chu]

video screens embedded in various out-of-the-way nooks and crannies, showing live feeds from Ducasse's kitchens;

Can you see ADPA?!

[cookperrync]

Thank you for the excellent review...

What must it cost to run a kitchen like that? FG do you have any insight on what the labor cost and food cost is for restaurants on the level of Mix, ADNY, Daniel, JG...? Just curious...

Perry

[Msk]

Thanks for that great account. I am excited to give it a try, it does sound like fun.

Msk

[Suzanne F]

Wow. You know, FG, you really should consider a career as a food writer.

I

WANT

THAT

CLAM

CHOWDER

NOW

[eliotmorgan]

Thanks for the well thought out review FG.

[R Washburn]

Great review Steven, but what about the sevice? How is it "unsteady"? I had no problems in my one visit. However, the restaurant was not at full capacity.

Also, is Mix still serving the $45 pre-theater dinner? It sounds like even more of a bargain after reading your description of the kitchen. I will try to make it back there next week.

Thanks,

Robert

Edited October 28, 2003 by R Washburn (log)

[Suvir Saran]

Mix is fun.

If you don't like fun, don't go to Mix. If you don't like fun restaurants, don't go to Mix. If your exclusive idea of culinary fun is going to La Caravelle at 6:30pm and sitting all night with a Dover sole and a $2,000 bottle of wine, don't go to Mix.

There are a lot of people for whom Mix simply is not the right restaurant, including, it seems, the major New York City restaurant reviewers: William Grimes of The New York Times advocates "a little less fun." Adam Platt of New York Magazine calls it "busyness on a grand Euro-centric scale." And rumor has it that died-in-the-wool Alain-Ducasse-hater Gael Greene (who doesn't even like Ducasse's restaurant in Paris), no longer having access to the reviewer's podium at New York Magazine, wrote an off-the-record review of her own, scribbling "POOR" across her check when she dined there during the restaurant's first week.

With these assessments, the current crop of New York restaurant reviewers continues to express its collective literary death wish and to further its descent into irrelevance, further expanding the vacuum for Zagat to fill. Because every night at Mix, there they are: people, customers, readers -- sophisticated, well-heeled, young, experienced restaurant-goers . . . having fun. And if restaurant reviewers fail to speak to them, they'll seek other sources.

Mix is cool.

Thanks Kim for pointing out the obvious to me. The layers of spice laden vapors from the restaurants kitchen have thickened my skin. I gave up way early in the post, I felt I was re-visiting the eGullet Regina Schrambling fiasco. I quickly decided to give up on the post by our dear Fat Guy, instead of adding any negativity to my late night time for myself after a long day.

I remembered what Paula Wolfert, a friend of one of the three people being bashed by Fat Guy had said about what had left some affect on her work, I pushed myself to read Fat Guys post in entirety. I realized later, that like all the people he bashed in the first three paragraphs, Fat Guy was also talking about food and Mix in the end. They were taking to task the chef and Fat Guy was taking to task the food writers in question. So, Kim, you are correct. Mix and its food did come out in the end. It took me a revisiting of the post.

Paula Wolfert shared in her recent Q&A some wonderful insight into what the role of the internet was.

It was fascinating to read her answer to Steve Klc's question. Luckily for eGullet affiliates and all of us members, she was very positive about her interactions on eGullet and also shared how she discovered a source for gateau la broche. " Bravo for eGullet" She said.

And below is a quote from that same post.

"Certainly there's a lot of "hubbub" about chefs in New York these days, but the last time I recall a hub of food writers and cookbook authors that had any affect on my work was in the late 1970's when I lived in New York and the nouvelle cuisine was in full swing. On Saturday afternoons food writers such as James Beard, James Villas, Arthur Schwartz, Barbara Kafka, Suzanne Hamlin, Gael Greene, myself and others would congregate at the restaurant Le Plaisir on Lexington Avenue to talk endlessly about food. Masa was the chef there; he would create all sorts of exciting new dishes for us to taste. (He went on to make a huge name in San Francisco in the 80's, and then to be tragically and horrifically murdered.) The 70's was a wonderful time in the food trenches and as far as I'm concerned, the last time there was a real "hub" of food writers and cookbook authors. "

Sounds like a wonderful Mix of minds to me and also like it certainly must have been great fun and very cool.

I remember thinking after her posting this reply on the Q&A, that I wish I had lived just a few days in that period, so I could have been able to even just serve this lot at Le Plaisir.

What is wonderful about eGullet and the internet, is the baggage-less sharing of thought. And it will be only that kind of dialogue that would ultimately give the same respect to our message boards that the spoken word of Grimes, Platt and Greene carries today.

[Brad S]

What a great review,

So well written and honest.

[Fat Guy]

video screens embedded in various out-of-the-way nooks and crannies, showing live feeds from Ducasse's kitchens;

Can you see ADPA?!

I don't think so. I'm almost certain the video screen by the bar shows Spoon in Paris, but this is something we'd have to follow up with Mix about. I'll see what I can learn later.

[Suvir Saran]

Wow.  You know, FG, you really should consider a career as a food writer.

I

WANT

THAT

CLAM

CHOWDER

NOW

Are we being fascetious? Cute? Cool? Fun?

Fat Guy has made a career out of food writing.

Fat Guy, like the best of them, sends stories for NY Times and other "old media" to buy.

Fat Guy also has written for trade publications (food industry) like Food Arts Magazine.

Fat Guy has been mentioned and his items published in books that celebrate and document the best pieces of food writing from some of the countries top food writers.

Fat Guy was first introduced to me by someone at the NY Times.

Fat Guy is no newbie to the food world. He is just as savvy, articulate, powerful, wicked in a witty way and smart as the rest of the food writers we speak of.

And Fat Guy has his own following like that of his peer.

Fat Guy has no considerations left to make about being a part of the food world, to many, as one could easily find on eGullet, and on this thread, the food world is nothing without Fat Guy.

[Fat Guy]

Great review Steven, but what about the sevice? How is it "unsteady"? 

About half the waitstaff (the French half) has suffered from language and cultural interaction problems, and most of the other half of the waitstaff (the American half) has suffered from lack of knowledge. There is one really good American waiter that I dealt with, I think his name is Nathan, but there are plenty of weak servers as well. Things have improved a lot, but I expect better service at this price point and from this caliber of operation. They're also still at the point where they're dropping trays of food on the floor, knocking plates into glasses as they clear, etc. The sommelier (the male one) is delightful, friendly, handsome, smiling, French, and presumably quite knowledgeable, but it's completely impossible to understand what he's saying unless you migrate into partial restaurant-French, which shouldn't be necessary at a restaurant in New York. Also the spiel they give you at the beginning of the meal is irritating and unnecessarily condescending -- not to mention it doesn't really communicate much. I think ultimately the service-management end of things was not well organized at the outset. My understanding is that there has been quite a bit of re-staffing.

Also, is Mix still serving the $45 pre-theater dinner?

Yes, and the food is the same all day long.

[Brad S]

Heres the Grimies review.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/22/dining/22REST.html

[Fat Guy]

What must it cost to run a kitchen like that?  FG do you have any insight on what the labor cost and food cost is for restaurants on the level of Mix, ADNY, Daniel, JG...?  Just curious...

I do get to hear a moderate amount of information like that, but I rarely repeat it because most of the time it's given to me "on background," which is basically a way of saying "off the record." For example, I spoke to Psaltis on the phone for about an hour after last night's meal. Mostly we were talking about clam chowder. At one point I asked him to cost out those ingredients -- the geoduck clam bellies that they use just for a puree, etc. -- and he did that on background. It would be wrong for me to print "Psaltis spends X dollars on geoducks per day, and the chowder you pay $15 for has a Y% food cost" because we spoke with the understanding that I wouldn't get that specific in a written report. What it is appropriate for me to say is that Psaltis told me his costs, I believe him (because he has a reputation for honesty and I got the sense he had no reason not to be straight with me), and they are substantially higher (both as a percentage and as an absolute dollar amount) than what I believe (by talking to lots of other sources off the record, and by reading basic hospitality-management books that for some reason Wiley sends me for free as review copies) is the industry standard for three- and four-star restaurants in New York.

In terms of labor costs, I haven't a clue. I wouldn't even begin to know how to evaluate that. Someone would have to give me a lot of information before I could start to speak intelligently in that area. But it's likely that there's an eGulleter or ten out there who does know. Maybe we can get a general report at some point.

[JesseNYC]

Great review !!!

I love the fact that there are other opinions out there that can be perused other than the mass-marketed press (NYT, NY Mag, etc...). It's very refreshing. If people only went by what they read in these publications, they would ever step a foot in Mix.

Steve, keep up the great work, you are very appreciated.

You are one of the many reasons that makes eGullet great, and important.

[bilrus]

Great review. Anything that could make me want to drive 6 hours up I-95 from DC to have clam chowder and a BLT has got to be pretty good.

I do have one question though. You say:

"Is Mix completely to my tastes? Hell no... I don't love the room. I don't love the music. But in the end, I don't really care. If you care, fine. But as a critic I don't see it as my job to care -- I'm not an architecture critic or a music critic; I write about food. "

What don't you like about the room?

This is a topic that comes up frequently in Tom Seitsema's online chats. Nearly every week someone criticizes him for including information and descriptions of the restaurant and its decor, etc. I for one find this helpful because I think that all the elements of a restaurant go into the dining experience.

Is there a differnence between being a "Food" reviewer or a "Restaurant" reviwer?

Edited October 28, 2003 by bilrus (log)

[Fat Guy]

Bill, I feel that a food/restaurant critic/reviewer's job is primarily to give a critical analysis of food and service, and simply to report on the rest: I think part of my job is to tell people what the room looks like, and from there they can decide whether or not in their personal sheme of things they prioritize decor enough to have it affect their experiences. But where I think a reviewer can go totally wrong is when he or she develops attitude about the decor or whatever, and lets that start feeding back into the whole assessment -- poisoning the whole review. That's just silly.

I totally agree that "all the elements of a restaurant go into the dining experience." But there's a question of weight of factors. I would consider bad food and bad service to be a pretty damning combination for any restaurant, no matter how attractive it is. But if a restaurant offers great food and an acceptable level of service, I really don't care if it's ugly, and if I did care I'd still suppress that impulse when writing reviews for public consumption. Sure, if there's something about the design that physically affects me -- like I can't see anything or it's downright uncomfortable to sit there -- that's something I'd bitch about in a review. But if I don't like the artwork or the general appearance of the room, it's just not a big deal.

I also don't feel particularly qualified to determine the ultimate ugliness of a project. I am neither an architecture nor a music critic. I've not bothered to take the time to learn enough to tell people what they should and shouldn't like about architecture and music. I certainly know what I do and don't like, but I consider that opinion no more worthy than it would be were I a participant in the Zagat Architecture Survey 2004. So you may hear me make an occasional comment about how awful I think Arman's sculptures are, but I know my opinion isn't worth much -- even though I know in my heart of hearts that Arman's sculptures are truly horrid.

[Bux]

Impressively descriptive and informative. As a side note to Kim, [soapbox] where I've been involved in real estate transactions--or even just in window shopping--"The bathrooms need renovation" is usually presented as an opportunity to have the kind of bathroom I want, whereas a couple of hundred thousand dollars worth of grotesque marble and gold plated faucets is presented as the luxury of not having to go through the ordeal of dealing with construction and contractors. [/soapbox]

If you don't like fun, don't go to Mix

Hmm, is that a personal dare?

Gael Greene ... wrote an off-the-record review of her own, scribbling "POOR" across her check

I should think that Psaltis and Ducasse would be fighting over who gets to keep that souvenir. It's not a good idea for a restaurant critic to make a response that could later be described as "poor."

There are a lot of people for whom Mix simply is not the right restaurant,

I think there's an interesting paradox here because on the surface, it's obviously a restaurant that's not so much designed not with me in mind, but almost designed to keep me away, yet I feel a compelling need to visit. I suspect that it may be just because Ducasse is involved. Therefore, I can't give you any credit for making me want to go, although I suppose your review makes it easier for me to explain why to my friends. I don't think of myself as a fan of Ducasse. I do have a respect for him that's not unbridled, but which grows with each experience with his endeavors and that means that as New Yorker, I have to know first hand what he is doing in my home town.

What I draw from your review is what I haven't found elsewhere and that's not so much advice on whether it's a good or bad restaurant, or even the indication of whether it's my kind of restaurant--that's the banality of what most "consumer report" reviews attempt--but some insight into what I will find to appreciate and some understanding of what to look for in preparation of getting the most out of an intended visit. And that's what separates this thread for me, from the others that are about what's lacking in newspapers and journals today.

I disagree to some extent to your views about your duty in regard to decor, ambience and music. I don't really care if you think the room is ugly or beautiful. I'm not sure I care all that much whether you think the rood is delicious or not either, that's largely a matter of taste. I think a dining columnist, or restaurant critic, can offer reasons how and why the decor contributes or detracts from the overall dining experience in as objective a way as he can speak about the food. I agree however that your intended audience will place far great value relatively on the food. I for one will suffer an ugly room, or one in a style that offends my sensibilities, for good food. I have little interest spending good money to be in architectural gem where poorly conceived and ill cooked food is served. I may be fascinated enough to have seat at the bar with a beer however.

[Jinmyo]

Steve, how about some more about Mixspeak?

Someone chastised me recently for saying merely "Mix" instead of "Mix in New York." Yet there you go, "Mix" here and "Mix" there. So perhaps you're not Mixed up enough to really grok the talk but your impressions would be of interest.

[pnapoli]

FG: thank you. that was wonderful to read. and i'm dying to try this place now.