Q&A -- Preservation Basics

[ianeccleston]

  jackal10 said:

The cucumber recipe was a different source...5 mins is moire than adequate

Fennel is different - sort of stronger and more aniseed flavoured than dill.

I'm sure they will be delicouse, just different

Great, thanks for the clarification. Yes, I think the fennel seed will turn out. Next time I may add some orange zest too...

Ian

[ianeccleston]

One last simple question. When I loaded the brine into the jars, I left a 1/4 inch gap at the top. Now that gap is closer to one inch (right at the 'shoulders'), and the tips of the pickles are sticking out of it. Is this common?

Do I have to worry about botulism muliplying in these little tips? In the meantime, I'm keeping the processed jars in the fridge.

Ian

[jackal10]

If the seal is Ok it should be fine, but may dry a little.

[viva]

Jack, thanks for the great lesson. I've been dying to try my hand at preserving, and this gave me the push I needed. I picked up a ton of beautiful peaches, and used a cardamom cinnamon syrup. It looks lovely!

I have one question. I used similar jars to the one in your lesson, glass with a detachable rubber ring. During the processing part, I noticed a few very small bubbles escaping from around the seal. Is this normal, due to the heat compressing the gas and forcing it to escape, or does it indicate that the seal on my jar isn't good? If the seal is bad, can I put the whole she-bang in another jar and try again? I'd hate to waste these beauties.

Thanks for your help!

[jackal10]

They do sound good!

The rubber ring and lid act as a one way valve, letting air out, but not in. Indeed, the jars should expel some air during processing, as this then forms the tight vacuum seal, and if you undo the clip the jar is still sealed. In fact to open the jar (when you want to use the contents) you may need to push the point of a knife (care) under the rubber ring to break the seal.

I've just made some elderberry jelly. Since I did not have quite enough elderberries, or trust it to set and did not want to use pectin I made up the weight with windfall apples. Ended up with roughly 1 elderberries: 1 apple : 1 sugar, plus juice of a lemon. Boiled to 221F, and set well.

Edited August 29, 2004 by jackal10 (log)

[viva]

Oh, yay! Thank you! I've been keeping them in the refrigerator to be safe, so I'm glad to get that huge jar out of there. I learned another important lesson in this process: make sure you have a pot large enough so when you fill it with water, the jar will be covered. Let's just say I'm the proud owner of a new, taller, pot.

I wish I had a real cellar so that I could just fill it up with jars of preserved fruit. Something about this process speaks to the survivalist in me.

[ianeccleston]

By the way, I've been eating the cukecumber pickles I made with the recipe from this class. Crisp and yummy! As noted before, I substituted 1 tbs. of fennel seed for the dill, and it's good. It doesn't have a strong fennel flavor, so I bet you could put even more in if you like.

[Gabriel Lewis]

Excellent course Jack, I do love reading these old e-gullet courses

I have been wanting to try some pickle recipes from David Thompson's Thai Food but the recipes differ a bit from the ones described here, and I am a bit leary about potential consequences. I was hoping you might be able to comment on them.

Essentially all of his pickles describe a basic method in which a pickling liquid is made, and this is then added to a sterilized jar along with the contents to be pickled. He usually then suggests leaving in either the sun or a warm dry place for a period of time depending on the recipe. There is never any mention of processing, and the language he uses seems to suggest that the resting period in a warm dry place or the sun is important.

For example, in his recipe for pickled shallots he says "Place the shallots in a sterlised glass gar and pour over the liquid. Cover and leave in the sun or a warm, dry place for at least 4 days. Once sufficiently sour, store refrigerated for another week before use."

As this recipe has only 2tbsp vinegar to 1tbsp sugar, 2 cups rice rinsing water, 1 cup coconut water, and 1 cup water I am really wondering whether or not it is safe. I know a discussion of pickling in India in another thread in which someone speculated that the intense sun of the Indian climate during pickling season plays a role in preservation there, and I wonder if this might not be the case for these recipes as well.

[jackal10]

Sounds to me that he is making a quite different sort of pickle: fermented pickles.

The pickles in this lesson are not fermented, but just flavoured with the vinegar etc. and preserved either by being kept cold in the fridge (upto a week or three), or for a longer time by being canned and sterilised by heat treatment.

Fermented pickles, such as half and full sour hamesha cucumbers are preserved in salt in an environment that encourages lactic and acetic acid fermentation - they make their own vinegar, until the vinegar concentration is sufficiently high to act as a preservative.

See for example http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=89890

but many cultures have their own versions, such as sauerkraut or kimchi, some rather an acquired taste.

You do have to get the environment and temperatures right, to grow the right bugs, and I've never been that successful. I'm not a microbiologist, but I believe that if the environment is acid (thus avoiding botulism and the like), the food reasonably clean to begin with, and its not growing obvious fur or strange colours, you won't come to a lot of harm, but it might not taste good.

The recipe you quote seems to be a halfway house: he ferments "until sufficiently sour" then refrigerates. I guess you could can them at that point. The two tablespoons of vinegar makes the liquid slightly acid to begin with, and the rice washings provide fermentable starch. The warm place (about 90F) gives the optimum conditions for lacto-bacilli grow, like sourdough.

Edited February 6, 2007 by jackal10 (log)

[Gabriel Lewis]

Hmm this makes a lot of sense. I hadn't considered fermented pickles but after reading the thread I think you may be right, but there are still some things I'm wondering about.

I've been reading a lot about vinegar making as well as I am trying my hand at a coconut vinegar from his book. It seems to me that fermented pickles probably make use of only lactic acid rather than acetic acid as acetobacter, the bacteria the produce vinegar, do so by converting ethanol into acetic acid in the presence of oxygen. Given that the recipes says to "cover and leave in the sun" without any special mention of an air permeable covering, and that there doesn't seem to be any real source of alcohol in the recipe, I don't see how vinegar could be involved. Also, light inhibits the activity of acetobacter.

It seems I will have to do some reading on lactic acid fermentation, thanks for pointing me in the right direction. But, has has another for pickled cucumber that I can't seem to make any sense of, even in light of fermented pickles.

In this recipe he directs you to top and tail 1lb of cucumber, quarter them lengthwises and deseed, rub with salt and leave to drain overnight. You then place the washed and dried cukes in a sterilised glass jar and add a pickling liquid of 1cup vinegar, 1/2cup sugar, and a 1/2cup water that has been simmered with cassia and cloves for 5 minutes and left to cool. He then instructs you to leave in a warm dry place for three weeks before use.

This doesn't make any sense to me as it seems to be neither a flavored or fermented pickle. Maybe this will all make more sense after I read up about lactic acid fermentation.

[Tepee]

  Gabriel Lewis said:

In this recipe he directs you to top and tail 1lb of cucumber, quarter them lengthwises and deseed, rub with salt and leave to drain overnight. You then place the washed and dried cukes in a sterilised glass jar and add a pickling liquid of 1cup vinegar, 1/2cup sugar, and a 1/2cup water that has been simmered with cassia and cloves for 5 minutes and left to cool. He then instructs you to leave in a warm dry place for three weeks before use.

←

This is the time of year (Chinese Lunar New Year) when we do pickling for Acar Sayur (Vegetable Pickle). As you see in the recipes here and here, the process is similar to David Thompson's. The veg are salted, no need overnight, just enough to draw out the juices. For a very heavy-liquid content veg like the cucumber (and if your hands are tough enough, julienned carrots), we take the extra step in squeezing out the juice, then sun them thoroughly. This will make the vegetables extra crunchy.

Try the recipes, they are delicious. If you are not heat-tolerant, you can leave out the hot spices, just the vinegar, sugar and salt will do. Serve with crisp deep-fried garlic, shallots, finely fried shredded ginger, toasted sesame seeds and chopped peanut brittle. Do not mix these in the jar. The acar should be ready after 2 days. Although, in one of the recipes, it says the acar will last 2 weeks in the fridge, we make so many jars that it lasts us at least 2 months!

[Morten]

Great article!

I got a question about the Cucumbers - how long can they be stored in the fridge and still be good?

[prasantrin]

My meat grinder is arriving today and before making andiesenji's fruit and nut balls, I thought I'd start by drying my own fruit to use in them!

I thought I'd start with nashi (Asian pears) and apples. But I have a couple of questions...

I'm going to oven dry my fruit--the course begins with a temperature of 60C, but says to go as low as your oven will go. My oven goes down to 35C (or maybe 40C), so I was thinking of trying that.

However, I cannot prop my oven door open as the course says to do. If I try to prop it open, the oven will stop working (it's a gas convection oven, large by Japanese standards but pretty small)

In this situation, is it better to go with a higher temperature? My oven goes from 40C to 45C, then straight to 100C, so it's either a low temperature, or 100C. I'm assuming propping the door open is to help any steam escape (which I read elsewhere), so maybe a higher temperature will help deal with the steam? Or should I just open the door once every 15 or 30 minutes?

Next question--for hard fruits, is 5mm still a good thickness, or would thicker or thinner be better?

Final question--it's actually quite humid in my area of Japan right now, so are there any precautions I need to take when drying my fruit? Should I leave it in the oven to cool so the humidity doesn't cause it to soften again? Will it mould more quickly because of the humidity? If so, should I keep it in the fridge? (Yes, I know that was more than one final question, but they're all related so they should count as one!)