Q&A -- Knife Maintenance and Sharpening

[beeblebrox]

I just got spyderco, but haven't sharpened my knife yet. It's a sabatier chef's knife, stainless steel, and the bevel on one side seems a bit shorter... do I just focus on that one till it's even to the other side? And then alternate as normal till i feel burr?

Edited November 4, 2003 by beeblebrox (log)

[Chad]

I just got spyderco, but haven't sharpened my knife yet. It's a sabatier chef's knife, stainless steel, and the bevel on one side seems a bit shorter... do I just focus on that one till it's even to the other side? And then alternate as normal till i feel burr?

I wouldn't worry about it unless your bevels are significantly uneven. What you can do, however, is kill two birds with one stone. If you haven't sharpened this knife on the Sharpmaker before you'll be removing some metal to get the edge to match the preset angles. Just start on the short-beveled side and stay there until you feel a burr on the opposite side. It might take a while. Be patient. Then pop a burr on side one (this will happen fairly quickly) and alternate lightly. Follow the tutorial or the Sharpmaker manual/video from there.

Chad

[beeblebrox]

Thanks for the reply Chad. I started today and I grinded for a while... and the blade seems resilient. It doesn't feel like I'm making any progress. I double checked to make sure I've been using the right stone. I hope this doesn't take forever.

[Chad]

Thanks for the reply Chad.  I started today and I grinded for a while... and the blade seems resilient. It doesn't feel like I'm making any progress. I double checked to make sure I've been using the right stone. I hope this doesn't take forever.

Hmm, shouldn't take more than 30-45 minutes. Oh, wait, are you doing a 15/20 double bevel? That will take a lot longer. Remember, your knife from the factory has edge bevels of 25 degrees or more per side. Grinding that down to 15 degrees involves removing a lot of metal. I wouldn't worry about trying the double bevel just yet. Simply use the grey stones, beginning with the corners, and grind a plain 20 degree bevel. Use the corners until you get a burr on one side, then grind the other side until you get a burr on side 1. Then switch to the flats of the grey stones, the corners of the white stones and the flats of the white stones, alternating strokes and getting progressively lighter with your touch.

Let me know how that works.

Chad

[Boris_A]

Hi Chad

What do you think of this device called "Rapid Steel" by F.Dick?

RapidSteel

There's one for sahrpening (more abrasive) and one for polishing.

After reading you excellent piece of work, I'm not so sure whether this devices are ok.

OTOH, F. Dick is highly regarded not only for knives, but for their sharpeners and sharpener machinery. It's hard to imagine they use their good name to sell useless tools.

Thanx.

[Chad]

Boris, I haven't played with one of those personally. It does, however, bear a striking resemblance to the Mousetrap Steel from Razor Edge Systems. Could be a licensed product or a knock-off. Who knows? The Moustrap steel has a pretty good reputation, especially for high-volume, restaurant-type work. It's been extensively reviewed by Cliff Stamp. Take a look.

Chad

[Boris_A]

Thanks a lot, Chad

Interesting links.

> Could be a licensed product

I guess so. F.Dick is more a machinery/tool maker in south of Germany than a "real" knife maker, I was told by some artisanal guys (Güde) from Solingen.

My fisherman uses the polishing/smoothing device when fileting his fishes.

So having this tool for quick, fool-proof polishing and an EdgePro for sharpening could be a dream team. (at $200+ though)

Regards.

Edited November 14, 2003 by Boris_A (log)

[bobsdf]

I have a Murray Carter "Funiyaki" (carbon blade) that I used last night to break a chicken down into 8 pieces. Afterwards I noticed that little pieces of the blade had broken off along the edge, sort of like small (.3-.5mm) scallops along about an inch of blade. It's not like I was hacking randomly at the carcass, I was making cuts through cartilage and small relatively soft bone. Does this sound normal? I've used a similar shaped global to do this job countless times with no problems.

I'm kind of bummed, as this knife wasn't exactly cheap.

[Chad]

I have a Murray Carter "Funiyaki" (carbon blade) that I used last night to break a chicken down into 8 pieces. Afterwards I noticed that little pieces of the blade had broken off along the edge, sort of like small (.3-.5mm) scallops along about an inch of blade. It's not like I was hacking randomly at the carcass, I was making cuts through cartilage and small relatively soft bone. Does this sound normal? I've used a similar shaped global to do this job countless times with no problems.

I'm kind of bummed, as this knife wasn't exactly cheap.

Yow. I feel your pain.

A funayuki-bocho is a general purpose knife. They're not as delicate as, say, a yanagi-ba. This shouldn't have happened just cutting through cartilage or even soft bone. Murray Carter uses Hitachi #1 White steel clad with softer stainless. The carbon steel edge is usually up in the 60-62 Rockwell C range, making it extremely hard but prone to chipping when it encounters hard material. Doesn't sound like that was the case here.

Frankly, I'm not sure what to tell you. This is outside my experience. I do know, though, that Murray is a true gentleman and will probably be more dismayed than you are. I'd e-mail him exactly what you posted here. This is the address I've used to contact him in the past -- Murray Carter.

Let us know how it turns out.

Take care,

Chad

[Sespe Pete]

Hello Chad --

I really enjoyed your egullet treatise on knife maintenance and sharpening.

I read it several times. I also went through the Q and A several times.

I have been using a Lansky system to sharpen my knives for

several years. Probably incorrectly, which is why I write. I normally clamp

the knife in the middle and stroke the stone from hilt to point, in a very

shallow arc. This gives me a good edge from end to end, but tends to round

off the point of the blade, as the sharpening angle changes significantly over

the length of a 10" blade. Right?

Well, what is the correct technique? I believe it to be to 'saw' the blade with

the stone in several different clamp positions, over the length of the blade?

If this is so, how do you ensure that you are not taking more material off of

one area of the blade than the next? I mean, this 'sawing' action would seem

to be very innacurate, at the very best. Taken to the extreme and very much

magnified, wouldn't/couldn't this techique result in a square-wave appearance

of the edge of the blade? Am I missing something here?

I am also contemplating the purchase of one of the EdgePro Apex systems,

but it employs the same technique of using a 'sawing' motion to sharpen the

blade. Correct?

Where am I going wrong? Can you please advise me on how to use these

two types of systems so that I can get an even edge from end to end?

Many thanks for any help you can provide and thanks also for your excellent

treatise on basic sharpening techniques and equipment. It helped me

enormously!!

Walt Travers

[Chad]

Walt, thanks for your kind words. I'm glad you found the tutorial helpful.

Yep, if you clamp a 10" blade in the middle with a Lansky system you're going to have some pretty serious angle variation over the length of the blade. When using a Lansky I generally clamp the blade right at the bolster to begin with, do 20-25 passes per side (or until it's sharp enough), reclamp a couple of inches up and repeat the process, reclamping as need be. I try not to let the arc of the stone get too wide -- maybe two inches or so. I'm guessing here, so bear with me. I didn't reclamp while using the Lansky on my paring knives, for example, and their tips are quite rounded. Yes, you never really know if you're sharpening one section of the blade more than another, but if you allow for some overlap it evens out.

Same thing with the EdgePro, which I infinitely prefer. The blade isn't clamped, so you don't have to worry about angle variation. You just slide the blade along the blade table as you progress. I overlap quite a bit when I slide the blade down, e.g. I'll do a couple of inches near the handle, slide the blade about an inch or two and hit about half of the previous area while progressing into a new section of edge. That way all of the edge gets about the same amount of attention. There isn't really any "sawing," but I do use the stone in both directions with a little more force on the foreward stroke and lighter on the back stroke.

Both systems take some practice to use well. If you don't mind spending the money, the EdgePro is definitely a better sharpening rig. Ben Dale is a great guy to deal with. Get the video and the ceramic "steel" too. The video, as bad as the quality is, shows how to keep the angle consistent so you don't round the tip.

Hope this helps. If you've got any more questions (or if I didn't answer this one well ), just ask.

Chad

[Dave the Cook]

Just before a recent trip on which I knew I would be doing some cooking, I touched up my three most useful knives. I packed them carefully and secured them in checked luggage (no point in trying to explain to airport security). As it turned out, I didn't need (or in one case, simply forgot) my knives, so after ten days on the road, I retrieved them and returned them to active duty.

They're dull. Well, not dull, but I'm pretty sure they're not as sharp as they were when I packed them. Is there an explanation for this, other than my own perceptual error?

[Chad]

Is there an explanation for this, other than my own perceptual error?

You're f'ing nuts?

Okay, really:

They're dull. Well, not dull, but I'm pretty sure they're not as sharp as they were when I packed them.

Yup, it happens. And it's a very weird experience. There's a little about this phenomenon in the tutorial, but the long and short of it is that the steel at the very edge seems to "relax" over time.

So if you've blunted your knives during a marathon beet dicing session, let them rest overnight before sharpening. They'll feel noticeably sharper in the morning and you won't take off as much metal.

Same thing with touching them up. You shouldn't notice much change if you gave them a full sharpening because you've put on a fresh edge, but if you simply steeled your knives, they'll relax (a little) -- not all the way back to their previous state but certainly less sharp than just after you touched them up. That's why you always steel before use rather than after. This might even occur if you've given them a very light sharpening, but I'm not sure.

I don't know the physics behind why this happens, just that it does.

Chad

[Dave the Cook]

Well, at the least you've spared me from some humiliating masculine deficiency complex caused by comparing my blades to someone else's, if you know what I mean.

I use a smooth steel for everyday -- before use and intermittently during the marathon beet sessions. Before packing the knives, I pulled used a ridged steel for the touch-up. The thing is, they're duller now than they were before they were touched up -- in fact duller than before the last time I sharpened them. You're right, it's very weird. Do I need to go back to the Spyderco?

I don't know the physics behind why this happens, just that it does.

Hmph. Remind me to revoke your nomination for Smug Scientific Bastardhood.

[Chad]

I use a smooth steel for everyday -- before use and intermittently during the marathon beet sessions. Before packing the knives, I pulled used a ridged steel for the touch-up. The thing is, they're duller now than they were before they were touched up -- in fact duller than before the last time I sharpened them. You're right, it's very weird. Do I need to go back to the Spyderco?

Aha. There's the culprit. A grooved steel is berry berry bad (as Garret Morris used to say). The smooth steel will take a little longer, but it's more forgiving of technique and does a better job of realigning the edge. A grooved steel, because the grooves create small, high pressure contact points, can actually chip out your edge if used with a heavy hand. Even with light pressure a grooved steel can create microfractures and the equivalent of a microscopically serrated edge. That edge won't hold up very long in use. And, I suspect (though I don't know) that edge will be more susceptible to the "relaxation effect."

I'd resharpen on the Spyderco and see where that gets you. Your knives should come back to razor sharp in very little time. Toss the grooved steel and stick with the smooth one or get a high-grit ceramic "steel."

I don't know the physics behind why this happens, just that it does.

Hmph. Remind me to revoke your nomination for Smug Scientific Bastardhood.

Aw, man! I'm smug! I'm a bastard! I can be pseudo-scientific.

Chad

[Dave the Cook]

I hang my head, but I'm actually encouraged by what you're saying. It suggests that my knives have been sharper since I abandoned my erstwhile "professional" sharpening guy and ridged steel, and started using the Spyderco/smooth steel combo and doing my own sharpening. Given that this was the first time I had used the ridged steel since reading your course, what I'm experiencing now is presumably similar to the degree of sharpness -- and rapid relaxation -- that I had before.

If this makes sense, thanks. I think.

I can be pseudo-scientific.

OK then. I wasn't sure you were aware of all the qualifications.

[bobsdf]

I have a Murray Carter "Funiyaki" (carbon blade) that I used last night to break a chicken down into 8 pieces.  Afterwards I noticed that little pieces of the blade had broken off along the edge, sort of like small (.3-.5mm) scallops along about an inch of blade.  It's not like I was hacking randomly at the carcass, I was making cuts through cartilage and small relatively soft bone.  Does this sound normal?  I've used a similar shaped global to do this job countless times with no problems.

I'm kind of bummed, as this knife wasn't exactly cheap.

Yow. I feel your pain.

A funayuki-bocho is a general purpose knife. They're not as delicate as, say, a yanagi-ba. This shouldn't have happened just cutting through cartilage or even soft bone. Murray Carter uses Hitachi #1 White steel clad with softer stainless. The carbon steel edge is usually up in the 60-62 Rockwell C range, making it extremely hard but prone to chipping when it encounters hard material. Doesn't sound like that was the case here.

Frankly, I'm not sure what to tell you. This is outside my experience. I do know, though, that Murray is a true gentleman and will probably be more dismayed than you are. I'd e-mail him exactly what you posted here. This is the address I've used to contact him in the past -- Murray Carter.

Let us know how it turns out.

Take care,

Chad

Well, here is an update. I contacted Murray who advised me to send him the knife for repair. I did this and it turns out that the damage I did to the knife was actually quite minor. He's fixed it and I'm awaiting its return in the mail. He recommended using a deba bocho for dismembering chicken in the future. I'm very pleased with how things have turned out.

[Sespe Pete]

Chad --

In reading your tutorial for the 3rd time, I found a section that I'm not sure I completely understand. Maybe a little explanation of the explanation will do to straighten me out....

In your tutorial, Section Five: Sharpening Step by Step... Step 7 states, "Stroke gently from heel to tip, alternating sides with each stroke." Now, using a captive rod/stone system like a Lansky or Edgepro, how do you stroke from heel to tip? Or, how do you 'slide' the "stone on a stick" from one end of the blade to the other? Are you talking about removing the rod/stone and doing freehand, or with the rod/stone still captive in its proper angle guide thingy thing?

Trying to visualize this is making my mind's eye all red and weepy-like and building up crusty things in the corners, like ya read about.

Pete

[Chad]

In your tutorial, Section Five: Sharpening Step by Step... Step 7 states, "Stroke gently from heel to tip, alternating sides with each stroke." Now, using a captive rod/stone system like a Lansky or Edgepro, how do you stroke from heel to tip? Or, how do you 'slide' the "stone on a stick" from one end of the blade to the other? Are you talking about removing the rod/stone and doing freehand, or with the rod/stone still captive in its proper angle guide thingy thing?

Howdy, Pete. I'm glad you're gettin some use out of the tutorial.

You have a point. I wasn't as clear as I could have been in that section. I was trying to keep the steps as generic as possible so they'd apply to benchstones, V-systems and rod/stone systems alike. However, the terminology in the passage you've pointed out really only applies to benchstones and V-systems. On rod-guided systems you simply stroke along the arc of the arm, changing positions as needed. So on a Lansky, for example, you'd stroke from the heel to wherever the stone ends up at the end of its arc, then you reclamp the blade a little farther down and repeat. This is part of the reason I prefer the EdgePro -- when you've finished with one section of the blade you simply slide the knife down the blade table a little. No reclamping.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any more questions.

Take care,

Chad

[Sespe Pete]

Chad --

Exactly what I was looking for. I figured that this must be what you were getting at, but had to be sure.

I have ordered the Edgepro Pro and it is back-ordered for a couple of weeks. I have talked to Ben (very easy to talk to, quite personable) and mentioned to him that I was convinced to buy his sharpener by your tutorial. He told me that he couldn't believe how much increase in business he had noticed, lately. I told him that it might have something to do with your excellent tutorial on this site.

He was unaware of this tutorial and asked for the address, etc. He also asked for your email address, which I furnished. He seemed quite pleased by your inclusion of his product in your tutorial.... can't be all bad, can it?

Thanks for your help.

Pete

[badthings]

TESTIMONIAL:

A couple weeks ago, I flew into a rage at the unbearably dull edge of my Chef's Choice chef's knife, and, more importantly, the inability of the (manual) Chef's Choice sharpener I bought with it to improve the situation. So I ran to the HW store, bought a cheap combination stone, and sharpened it "for real" based on my (faulty) memory of this tutorial. Now that I've re-read it, I realize there were some flaws in my approach, but the edge is, if not beautiful, sharp enough to take off some hair with a little encouragement, after only about 10 minutes of work. Thank you so much for the inspiration, Chad; I can't wait to repeat the excercise (following your instructions this time).

QUESTION:

There is probably a better thread for this, but since I have your attention, does Shun make a left-handed chef's knife? I was admiring the truly beautiful 10" chef's knife the other day, but the Sur La Table salesman saved me some money by pointing out the offset handle.

[col klink]

I've been inspired too and I've purchased a 1000/4000 Japanese water stone. I've been sharpening knives like a crazed monkey ever since it came in. I have to say that I've really been enjoying the freehand sharpening and I even was brave enough to tackle my sushi knife which has been somewhat scared since I cut some lemons with it and wasn't too quick with the cleaning.

[Schielke]

Nooooo!

:)

Col, next time you are in Sea-town, you gotta check out epicurean edge for some serious knife-porno.

Ben

[col klink]

Ah, don't worry. It was only a $25 knife. But I've don'e a pretty decent job of re-polishing it with the wetstone. Of course the back is concave and I can only get the edges.

[Chad]

Matt, dude, this is why God gave us Dremel tools .

Actually, if you don't like the patina (I don't mind 'em myself), try high grit sandpaper from an automotive store, 1000 grit or so. Or Flitz metal polish. Either one will get your knife back in shape.

Chad