Q&A -- Understanding Stovetop Cookware

[slkinsey]

2. Re: copper cookware, I was at Fante's here in Philadelphia last weekend, and they have some stuff on sale. And I have nothing to do with them professionally or anything--it just seems cheaper than what folks have posted so far. If I weren't in fast reply I'd remember how to put the URL in, but it's here http://fantes.com/copper_cookware.htm

They are cheaper than the prices we have been discussing for heavy copper because they're tin lined and not stainless lined. Stainless is considerably more expensive. Fantes is a great store, but I wouldn't say that their prices for tin-lined heavy copper are substantially lower than the competition.

[mrbigjas]

They are cheaper than the prices we have been discussing for heavy copper because they're tin lined and not stainless lined. Stainless is considerably more expensive. Fantes is a great store, but I wouldn't say that their prices for tin-lined heavy copper are substantially lower than the competition.

Now that I look, yeah, you right. They definitely had some stuff on sale at the store itself last week, though. I can probably look again this weekend and price some stuff if anyone's interested.

[Suzanne F]

You don't use a food mill?

Oh, yes, of course I do. But it's on the top of that pile, and not that difficult to pull out.

Actually, I haven't used it in a while; I bought a ricer recently and have been playing with that instead. But I'm not happy with how it rices boiled plantains, so I'll go back to the food mill for them. The jury is still out on mashed potatoes.

And the winner is . . . THE FOOD MILL! YAY!!!!!!!!!

I can dump all the potatoes into it at one time -- in fact, I use it as a colander to drain them -- and never have to reload. And takes less brute force. And it's easier to take apart, rinse, and fit into the dishwasher.

[oraklet]

sounds like a nice big food mill. what brand is it, and how big?

[SushiChan]

My whole-hearted endorsement goes to the cheapie folding steamer. BTW, I'm on only my second one in over 30 years, so it's a GREAT investment.

Thanks Suzanne for your expert input. I will stick with a folding steamer.

Thanks Sam for your explaination of a saute pan. I am still learning to cook. I don't think I want to make my food "jump".....cause they will jump out of the pan and onto the floor. Yes, I will stick with the wok.

I am in still search of a fry/omelette pan. May I please have some opinions on the following pans:

Calphalon Commercial Nonstick 10-Inch International Griddle/Crepe Pan

Sitram 9.5-Inch Stainless Steel Non-Stick Open Frypan

Scanpan Classic 9 1/4-Inch Fry/Omelet Pan

Also, what do you think of this? Is it useful?....or not? (like that steamer insert)

Scanpan Steel 9-Quart Covered Combination Cooker

Thanks,

Amy

[EdS]

Calphalon Commercial Nonstick 10-Inch International Griddle/Crepe Pan

This pan, being a griddle, has lower sides than a fry pan. That's an advantage or a liability depending on what you want to do with it. The lower sides mean it's easier to get a spatula in there to flip a crêpe or tortilla, for example. However, you don't have the sides needed to slide a French omelette up against or to contain a pan sauce. I'd get a good fry pan first before thinking about adding a griddle.

[Suzanne F]

sounds like a nice big food mill. what brand is it, and how big?

Actually, it's quite small -- maybe only 2 quarts/liters at most. Remember that I only cook for 2, so I'm talking about 4 medium potatoes, or 1 or 2 plantains. As for the brand, I have no idea. I got it at one of Broadway Panhandler's yard sales. Only the fine and coarse plates can actually be used; the center hole of the medium plate is not reamed properly. And it is NOT stainless -- maybe it's tinned steel? -- so I have to be careful washing it. Still, I love it. I even used it to make spaetzl once, with the coarse plate. Worked pretty well.

[spacedogg79]

Hi Sam,

 

I've read a number of your articles...great work btw!  I am a student on a budget and I've started to get more interested in cooking recently. Ahh...I guess living alone will do that to you. Anyway, I've finally decided to invest in a good versatile pan...probably a good saute pan. 

I currently own a non-stick saute pan which I use a lot (frying, cooking pasta sauces, etc)...but now I would like something with more even heat and not non-stick so i can use it to sear and develop fond. I'm willing to pay a little more for quality...since I'm sure it will last me for many years to come.  I want to go with stainless steel (as opposed to copper) because of the lower cost and maintenance...but then again...my apartment doesn't have a dishwasher, so "dishwasher safe" isn't really that big of a feature for me. Size wise I'd probably go with 11" or 12" (4qt - 5qt) size.

You seem to recommend the curved saute evasee type pans...i'm not really commited to a particular type of pan...but curved pans seems to be a little less common at the stores here than the straight sided saute pans...so I have mainly been looking at straight sided pans just because they are more available in my area.

I read your post in regards to buying something with a thick aluminum base, as opposed to buying a multi-clad pan, since a saute pan has most of the cooking done at the bottom anyway and therefore a multi-clad pan with 2mm aluminum core will not be as good as something with a thick 7mm aluminum disc base. You suggested Sitram Pro or Paderno Grand Gourmet.  Sigh. Slight problem.  I live up in Western Canada, and stores here don't carry either (well as you pointed out the Canadian Paderno is different...inferior quality using same name).  Any other brands with a thick 7mm aluminum base?

 

Stores up here sell: All-Clad, Anolon, Chaudier (some pieces), Cuisinart, Cuisinox, Demeyere (some pieces), Kitchen-Aid, Scanpan (available through an Canadian online retailer). Other than Paderno or Sitram, any other brands I should look out for?

 

I noticed that most companies don't tend to advertise how much aluminum is in their base.  Scanpan Stainless proudly says they have a 5mm aluminum core.  Still a good buy? In the photos their handles look pretty comfy (unlike AC).

I also wonder if a straight comparison of the thickness of aluminum is the end all of measuring sticks. For example, I wonder how much difference is in the different grades in metals and alloys used by manufacturers and how they affect the peformance compared to just the thickness of the disc. I assume there are different grades of aluminum that can be used in the construction process...so one 5mm aluminum disc pan might not be equal to another 5mm aluminum disc pan. Which in the end I guess only means that you need to test different types of pans side by side to really test their heating properties. But then who really has the time to do that other than something like Cook's Illustrated and Consumer Reports? (and they tend to recommend All-Clad as top choice in their comparison tests. bleh.)

Both Demeyere and Scanpan use 5mm aluminum discs. On the Demeyere's website, they mention they use an aluminum alloy to sandwich the pure aluminum for the base disc of the pan. Even though the alloy layer is really thin...I wonder if that changes the heating properties compared to a company (like Scanpan) that does not claim to use an alloy material. So would that perhaps justify Demeyere's higher price?

Anyway, any thoughts or recommendations?

Muchos gracias!

[slkinsey]

I read your post in regards to buying something with a thick aluminum base, as opposed to buying a multi-clad pan, since a saute pan has most of the cooking done at the bottom anyway and therefore a multi-clad pan with 2mm aluminum core will not be as good as something with a thick 7mm aluminum disc base.  You suggested Sitram Pro or Paderno Grand Gourmet.  Sigh.  Slight problem.  I live up in Western Canada, and stores here don't carry either (well as you pointed out the Canadian Paderno is different...inferior quality using same name).  Any other brands with a thick 7mm aluminum base?

 

Stores up here sell: All-Clad, Anolon, Chaudier (some pieces), Cuisinart, Cuisinox, Demeyere (some pieces), Kitchen-Aid, Scanpan (available through an Canadian online retailer).  Other than Paderno or Sitram, any other brands I should look out for?

I really don't know what's available in Canada. But, I'd like to point out that there is this wonderful thing called the Internet that helps you to buy cookware from companies that are located in America. Just because you live in Canada doesn't mean that you can't buy cookware from Bridge Kitchenware, for example.

Anyway, if you're set on buying locally available cookware, I'd look for a Chaudier (also called Chaudier 5000 in the US). It's very good quality, heavy stuff.

I noticed that most companies don't tend to advertise how much aluminum is in their base.  Scanpan Stainless proudly says they have a 5mm aluminum core.  Still a good buy?  In the photos their handles look pretty comfy (unlike AC).

Yes, it's a pretty good buy. I don't think the specs are quite as good as some of my favorites, but I wouldn't mind owning a few pieces.

I also wonder if a straight comparison of the thickness of aluminum is the end all of measuring sticks.  For example, I wonder how much difference is in the different grades in metals and alloys used by manufacturers and how they affect the peformance compared to just the thickness of the disc.  I assume there are different grades of aluminum that can be used in the construction process...so one 5mm aluminum disc pan might not be equal to another 5mm aluminum disc pan.  Which in the end I guess only means that you need to test different types of pans side by side to really test their heating properties.  But then who really has the time to do that other than something like Cook's Illustrated and Consumer Reports? (and they tend to recommend All-Clad as top choice in their comparison tests.  bleh.)

Yes, this is a complicating factor, and something I will probably discuss in version two of my class (whenever I get around to revising it). That said, my working assumption is that there is not a significant difference in the kind of aluminum used by the high-end manufacturers. One does't really need to do CR-style testing to understand the differences, however. All that is required is to have the materials specifications for the alloy they are using. These specifications are all public knowledge.

Both Demeyere and Scanpan use 5mm aluminum discs.  On the Demeyere's website, they mention they use an aluminum alloy to sandwich the pure aluminum for the base disc of the pan.  Even though the alloy layer is really thin...I wonder if that changes the heating properties compared to a company (like Scanpan) that does not claim to use an alloy material.  So would that perhaps justify Demeyere's higher price?

No, it doesn't significantly change the heating properties and no, it doesn't justify their higher price. As I say in my class:

Some manufacturers claim to employ special “multi-layer” interiors that are better than pure aluminum layers. Don’t be fooled by this marketing ploy. The interiors of these pans are 99% the same as those employed in the other fully clad designs.

You can draw your own conclusions about which manufacturer I was thinking of when I wrote that.

Anyway, any thoughts or recommendations?

One word: plastics.

No, seriously, if you want a big sauté pan, I'd get Sitram Profiserie or, if you don't want to buy from an American company (due to tax reasons or whatever) I'd go with Chaudier's heavy line. You'd probably be pretty happy with Scanpan Steel as well -- it looks good.

[Sam Iam]

The number 1 seller on Amazon today is the Circulon Classic 12" covered deep skillet with cover for $12.99. Worth the plunge if they ship to Canada. Plus, a $30 rebate if you buy $100 worth. Start your own Ebay company or be ready with a cheap gift for the next eight weddings that you have to attend!

Their prices on Cuisinart stainless skillets and saute pans WITH lids are also dirt cheap.

Edited December 23, 2003 by Sam Iam (log)

[spacedogg79]

I really don't know what's available in Canada.  But, I'd like to point out that there is this wonderful thing called the Internet that helps you to buy cookware from companies that are located in America.   Just because you live in Canada doesn't mean that you can't buy cookware from Bridge Kitchenware, for example.

Thanks for the help Sam. I will look at a couple American online dealers. There are a few reasons why I'd haven't even bothered to look at them before:

1. A lot of online places have reasonable shipping charges for within the continental US, but their shipping costs to Canada are often double or more. I have had several experiences where the shipping cost ended up being nearly as expensive as the purchased product. Online retailers justify higher costs since they are shipping internationally. I once wanted to ordered $40 worth of used books through Amazon.com. The shipping from the retailers turned out to be over $45. It was cheaper to buy the books new from a local Canadian retailer.

2. Customs and duties. Typically US made products shouldn't be charged duty. However past experience from friends have proven the way that customs people charge is quite random. Friends have ordered products where they were charged duty...and ordered the exact same product a second time and not charged duty. Duty charged can be quite significant and may significantly reduce or nullify any savings of buying from a large US based retailer. The US retailer generally does not know how much, if any, duty will be charged by Canada Customs. One must essentially gamble on "duty" Russian roulette.

3. Inspection times can cause delays at the border. I've had a package waiting at the border for nearly 2 weeks, when the product was originally said to have been shipped withing 3 business days. Usage of UPS or FedEx helps in shipping times, but delays within the Custom's inspection office is out of their hands. Furthermore usage of UPS and FedEx also increases the shipping costs substantially since they are charging "international" rates.

Generally, buying from online American retailers has left a sour taste in my mouth in the past. It's often just not worth the hassle. However in this case, considering how several cookware lines are not available up here in Canada, I will look at a few online dealers again.

Thanks

[slkinsey]

Whoa. Bummer, dude. That's not too cool.

One thing you might consider doing is calling the guys at Bridge Kitchenware and talking to them about shipping to you in Canada. I am sure they do some business up there.

[spacedogg79]

Whoa.  Bummer, dude.  That's not too cool.

One thing you might consider doing is calling the guys at Bridge Kitchenware and talking to them about shipping to you in Canada.  I am sure they do some business up there.

Sent an e-mail to BridgeKitchenware for a price quote on how much shipping would be to Canada for a Sitram Professional 11" saute pan.

Quote from BridgeKitchenware: "...we cannot tell you the cost until the order is packed and ready to ship. As this order is valued at more than $50.00 USD, it must be shipped via Ground UPS, and the shipping is generally less than $12.00 for this item, but the UPS Customs Clearance fees are a minimum of $30.00 USD, and are payable by you before delivery is made, so it is a good idea to order more items to justify the cost of the clearance fees. Once we have a completed order from you, we will be able to give you a better idea on the delivery fee, but the customs fees are out of our control."

Minimum of $30 USD. Which only means a good chance that they might charge more. Sigh.

[jango]

I have a question about s/s lined copper cookware.

If copper is tops in even heat conductivity, and stainless steel about the worst, why is it that if you bond the best with the worst one still comes out with a really good pan?

[slkinsey]

Because stainless steel is the best in terms of (non)reactivity and durability, and such a small layer is used that it doesn't significantly impact the thermal properties of the pan.

[jango]

Ok - thanks for this and the whole course.

[oraklet]

sounds like a nice big food mill. what brand is it, and how big?

Actually, it's quite small -- maybe only 2 quarts/liters at most. Remember that I only cook for 2, so I'm talking about 4 medium potatoes, or 1 or 2 plantains. As for the brand, I have no idea. I got it at one of Broadway Panhandler's yard sales. Only the fine and coarse plates can actually be used; the center hole of the medium plate is not reamed properly. And it is NOT stainless -- maybe it's tinned steel? -- so I have to be careful washing it. Still, I love it. I even used it to make spaetzl once, with the coarse plate. Worked pretty well.

then i guess it's about the same size as mine (called "mouli", i think. it's old), and that's a bit too small for a family of 6. still love it, though.

[gkg680]

HI, All-

For anyone who might be interested, the 11 inch, 4.6 liter, stainless-lined, copper Mauviel saute pan I ordered from artcuivre.com in Normandy has arrived.

I ordered it by Email on December 2, and they informed me by email on Saturday, December 13 that it would ship on Monday, December 15. It finally arrived yesterday, January 6.

I had hoped that it would arrive sooner. My price, including a hefty charge for shipping, came to 161.65 Euros. It came to $200.89 in dollars, including roughly $8, or 2%, that American Express gouges customers who buy something overseas.

Total cost might be a bit higher today, with the dollar losing a bit of ground to the Euro since my order was processed.

However, the pan is striking, I'll cook something with it tonight, and it makes my

All-Clad 4 quart stainless saute pan feel flimsy, like a whiffle ball. This pan requires significant arm strength to handle, and I already wish it had a helping handle opposite the cast-iron stem. Interestingly, though, the stainless lid to my All-Clad saute pan fits the Mauviel nicely.

Nevertheless, one doesn't buy many things that are an heirloom from the moment they arrive. This is quite a piece of cookware, and I look forward to learning about it as I cook.

I can't say whether the pan would've arrived more quickly if I'd had it shipped from Dehillerin in Paris. Dehillerin's price was a bit higher, and their shipping quote was higher also, and they require confirmation of an order by fax, but I would bet that they could ship a bit more quickly out of Paris and shorten the wait time.

Best wishes to all of you for a healthy and enjoyable new year.

Greg In Chicago

[NickMach007]

I'm a fairly new member here, but I've been reading the eCGI classes every free moment I have. Thanks for all the incredible info!

A quick question, I've actually been planning to get a bigger sized stock pot for a little while now. I've decided to go with either the Sitram Profisserie 17.7 quarts for $117 or the Paderno GG 17.5quarts for $167.33. Is the Paderno worth the extra bucks?? I really intend to this pot to be for making stocks and little else, so is the heavier body/top worth it?

Thanks again.

[slkinsey]

Well, Nick... that's a question only you can answer.

Seriously. Making stock isn't too complicated. Fundamentally making stock isn't all that complicated. A stainless cooking vessel with a thick aluminum pad should be all you need to do the trick. Now, in my opinion, the Paderno stick pots are heavier, more reinforced and therefore better able to absorb abuse. This might be a reason to buy Paderno... or maybe not. It might make sense in a restaurant, but perhaps would make less sense in your home. That really comes down to personal preference and whether or not the heavier construction seems like it would be worth 50 bucks to you.

Oh... and let us not forget that the Paderno pot holds an additional two-tenths of a quart! If that's not worth 50 dollars, then I don't know what is.

[mnebergall]

You should consider the 12 qt. Cuisinart disk bottom on sale at Amazon for $25.

[slkinsey]

For anyone who might be interested, the 11 inch, 4.6 liter, stainless-lined, copper Mauviel saute pan I ordered from artcuivre.com in Normandy has arrived.

Dude... who wouldn't be interested?

Thanks for the report.

[slkinsey]

You should consider the 12 qt. Cuisinart disk bottom on sale at Amazon for $25.

That's a very good suggestion, as the Cuisinart piece is almost free at that price.

However, there is a big difference between a 12 quart stock pot and a 17.5 quart stock pot in terms of usability for stock making. On the other hand, one could buy two of the Cuisinart pots and use both for 24 quarts!

[patriarch]

Wow. You have a lot of technical detail. You must have a very wise and high-powered scientific consultant.

[slkinsey]

Nah... just this bald guy I call "Dad."