Life after my first year at JWU

Nick · July 4, 2003

Kate, maybe this gig's not for you. New Bev's a hard town. It's late in the season, but maybe you ought to be looking out on the Cape. Maybe someone's quit and you could fill their spot.

KateW · July 4, 2003

Well it's only a couple months and since I'm just catching on I don't think I want to go somewhere new and learn their ropes for two more weeks. Then my summer will be half over.

KateW · July 7, 2003

Well it's going a little better now. They haven't made me cook by myself for a long period of time yet, and when I am by myself for a short time I do alright. I've talked to two of the managers and they both say I'm doing just fine and being hard on myself. I guess if I were doing crappy they would tell me.

I think I just tend to get ahead of myself. If I've got 10 tickets coming out of the printer I can't resist looking to see what they are instead of paying attention to the ones I'm already working on. It makes more sense to get rid of the first 3 or 4 tickets and then move on.

That little menu booklet is still pretty useless to me. I learn it better by looking at the real thing, and even better by making it. I went to Ruby Tuesday for lunch a few days ago and got something I'd never gotten before just to see how it was plated, lol.

I don't work again until Thursday, and I'm not closing. Whew!

elyse · July 7, 2003

Great news, Kate. Definitely keep your mind on the ones in process. A little overlap is fine, but not 10 tickets worth. Maybe when you know it all like the back of your hand, but not for a goodly while.

Good to hear your managers agree with us all!

plax · July 7, 2003

I applied for a teaching job at the J&W in North Miami a while ago, and by incredible coincidence one of the deans there was my writing student many years ago, and he called me in for an interview. We discussed a position that seems relevant to this discussion. Apparently they have job placement counselors who double as instructors, teaching classes about work and job hunting. It sounded quite impressive, though I didn't get much in the way of detail because they weren't quite ready to hire (he'd called me in more to just say hi & catch up).

I ended up getting a tenure-track position at another college so removed myself from consideration for this job, though I'd still love to adjunct in writing there sometime. Has anyone had any experience with this kind of class/placement? I'd be curious to hear more about it.

Neil

KateW · July 7, 2003

Yeah I took a career development class last year and the guy who taught it works in the career management office, which is the office that does job placement. We learned how to write resumes, cover letters, thank you letters, etc., how to do interviews, how to dress for them, things like that. I think I took some good information away from it. I think you have to take a career management class every year at JWU.

Anyway, when I asked the guy about a summer job and told him I live in New Bedford, he said something to the effect of, "Hmm, not much out there, how about Marriot?" :unsure:

Hobbes · July 8, 2003

Hey KateW,

I know where you are at due to personal experience.

I graduated from the French Culinary Institute in NYC on Feb. 20th. During my time at the FCI I worked at L'Ecole, FIC's restaurant. FCI does not require an externship because they feel that the work at L'Ecole will give their students enough of the "real world" experience. I learned a lot at L'Ecole but wanted to get more experience out in restaurant heaven that is NYC. I finally got an externship as a floater & prep roundsmen for Jean George 3 nights a week. It was an awesome experience and really nailed down my speed in knife work and flow. At the end of my 2.5 month stage at JG there was no job offered to me and that kind of hurt. I put in many hours of grueling perp work (like shelling 10 lbs of fresh chessnuts for example) and staying way beyond closing for most of my nights I was there but was happy to do it for the experience. JG and all of his chef and sous chefs liked me very much and were disappointed that I was leaving, they liked the work that I did.

But all was not lost. With JG experience under my wing I had some very good references I could use and did use them to my advantage. I got hired only a week after graduation to work for Rick Tramanto at Restaurant TRU. I was hired as a Garde Manger cook and thought WOW I finely made it. I am working at Relais & Châteaux rated restaurant, and one of the best restaurants in the nation. I knew I was going to work, work my ass off. But at the end of the day I could not preform the job to my chef's expectations. I worked harder than at Jean George, even better than that. I felt like a was in a tornado and could not keep my thoughts and organization straight after a while. I was sooo stressed out. I was finelly cut loose of my job and then was told that I was welcomed back maybe in a few years after more experience. I was devastated. I felt like a failure, if Tru dose not want me who will? That was 4 months ago and I have not been able to get back on my feet. I have applied to every restaurant in chicago (besides the cooperate biggies) and have had a hand full of stages (or trials) but no bites. KateW I had the same experience that chefs would just not call me or placate me or just all around avoid me when it came to the point of conversation of hiring me. I would do a stage and then get no answer, this has happened more than once. I am so frustrated that I do not know what to do with myself.

Thanks KateW for posting your concern here on egullet, I thought I was alone in this quandary. I think very highly of you that you have gone the cooperate route. I need the cash, I need to get a job to pay the rent here in the ol' windy city. But I am afraid that if I chose TGI Fridays for example I will never ever get back in to a high profile kitchen like Tru or Jean George, which is my dream. I fear that the cooperate route is too far away from the high profile kitchens, apples and oranges, that I will be fighting to get back into where I want to be. I will be going down the ladder instead of up and I have been allways told that I should get the best job that I can get no compromises. I have gotten some very tentative catering gigs to get some cash but this is not a long term fix. Any suggestions of the route I should go in would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

KateW
Posted on Jul 3 2003, 08:04 PM
It's probably partially my fault that I am not at a more upscale establishment. I didn't seek out any help in looking for a summer job. I wanted to work at Sid Wainer and when they didn't call back I stalled and finally went to the mall to look for something I thought would be pretty straightforward. I thought I might get prep work, dishwashing, salad bar--just so I could get a taste of it. Instead, I ended up behind the line.
I'm not sure what my point is. I just worked about 10 hours and I'm wicked tired. I'll post tomorrow.

KateW high profile kitchen will burn you WICKED just the same as the cooperate restaurants. I know I have been there. Maybe I should follow your lead and go work at The CheeseCake Factory. I don't know.......

it seems to me that you are going in the right direction, better than me as I see it. Keep at it and keep your spirits up, you are going in the right direction.

Take Care,

Hobbes :smile:

elyse · July 9, 2003

Hobbes, you poor thing! Sorry to hear about your bad experiences. Me, I'd work in any kitchen I appreciated in whatever way. Even the coroprate places can give you a ton of experience in speed, volume, organization. You can always shift after that.

Well, that's just my opinion. Good luck.

tan319 · July 9, 2003

Hey KateW,
I know where you are at due to personal experience.
I graduated from the French Culinary Institute in NYC on Feb. 20th. During my time at the FCI I worked at L'Ecole, FIC's restaurant. FCI does not require an externship because they feel that the work at L'Ecole will give their students enough of the "real world" experience. I learned a lot at L'Ecole but wanted to get more experience out in restaurant heaven that is NYC. I finally got an externship as a floater & prep roundsmen for Jean George 3 nights a week. It was an awesome experience and really nailed down my speed in knife work and flow. At the end of my 2.5 month stage at JG there was no job offered to me and that kind of hurt. I put in many hours of grueling perp work (like shelling 10 lbs of fresh chessnuts for example) and staying way beyond closing for most of my nights I was there but was happy to do it for the experience. JG and all of his chef and sous chefs liked me very much and were disappointed that I was leaving, they liked the work that I did.
But all was not lost. With JG experience under my wing I had some very good references I could use and did use them to my advantage. I got hired only a week after graduation to work for Rick Tramanto at Restaurant </a><a href='http://www.trurestaurant.com/' target='_blank'>TRU. I was hired as a Garde Manger cook and thought WOW I finely made it. I am working at Relais & Châteaux rated restaurant, and one of the best restaurants in the nation. I knew I was going to work, work my ass off. But at the end of the day I could not preform the job to my chef's expectations. I worked harder than at Jean George, even better than that. I felt like a was in a tornado and could not keep my thoughts and organization straight after a while. I was sooo stressed out. I was finelly cut loose of my job and then was told that I was welcomed back maybe in a few years after more experience. I was devastated. I felt like a failure, if Tru dose not want me who will? That was 4 months ago and I have not been able to get back on my feet. I have applied to every restaurant in chicago (besides the cooperate biggies) and have had a hand full of stages (or trials) but no bites. KateW I had the same experience that chefs would just not call me or placate me or just all around avoid me when it came to the point of conversation of hiring me. I would do a stage and then get no answer, this has happened more than once. I am so frustrated that I do not know what to do with myself.
Thanks KateW for posting your concern here on egullet, I thought I was alone in this quandary. I think very highly of you that you have gone the cooperate route. I need the cash, I need to get a job to pay the rent here in the ol' windy city. But I am afraid that if I chose TGI Fridays for example I will never ever get back in to a high profile kitchen like Tru or Jean George, which is my dream. I fear that the cooperate route is too far away from the high profile kitchens, apples and oranges, that I will be fighting to get back into where I want to be. I will be going down the ladder instead of up and I have been allways told that I should get the best job that I can get no compromises. I have gotten some very tentative catering gigs to get some cash but this is not a long term fix. Any suggestions of the route I should go in would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
KateW
Posted on Jul 3 2003, 08:04 PM
It's probably partially my fault that I am not at a more upscale establishment. I didn't seek out any help in looking for a summer job. I wanted to work at Sid Wainer and when they didn't call back I stalled and finally went to the mall to look for something I thought would be pretty straightforward. I thought I might get prep work, dishwashing, salad bar--just so I could get a taste of it. Instead, I ended up behind the line.
I'm not sure what my point is. I just worked about 10 hours and I'm wicked tired. I'll post tomorrow.
KateW high profile kitchen will burn you WICKED just the same as the cooperate restaurants. I know I have been there. Maybe I should follow your lead and go work at The CheeseCake Factory. I don't know.......
it seems to me that you are going in the right direction, better than me as I see it. Keep at it and keep your spirits up, you are going in the right direction.
Take Care,
Hobbes

Hobbes,

don't get bummed!!!

You're already too bummed about this.

TRU had to be a very heavy row to hoe. While JG, while not being any slouch, is perhaps a bit more user friendly. I knew someone who did an externship there from Peter Kumps and it seemed she did ok too. Whatever. Everyplace is different.

Don't go the corporate route. No Cheesecake Factory or the like. You've already tasted the real thing.

You know, when I got out of culinary school, I got a job, a try out, at a very prestigious french pastry place called Palais du Chocolat in Washington DC. I loved the chefs flavours and the stuff he did and I did the best I could, which wasn't good enough for him. I'm sure I was nowhere near as accomplished as you are.

TRU offered you a welcome back after a little more experience.

There is a new restaurant opening soon in Chicago. A member here named Inventolux has a link as his signature. Maybe check that out. It seems like that place is going to be a possible force to be reckoned with.

Maybe you could explain what the hassle was at TRU. Was it just a huge amount of mise to get ready every day?

If you don't want to discuss it in the thread, feel free to PM me.

But, just because you got let go, don't let it make you feel like you suck.

JG loved you! that says something for you.

Good luck and hang in there!

KateW · July 9, 2003

It sounds like you worked some pretty high profile restaurants and it would be a shame to go back to something so non-descript like a chain restaurant. I'm here because I didn't want my screwups to become high profile ;) Forgot pickles on the sandwich? No big deal. Forget something on a plate at those places you worked at? I think it would be a big deal. I'm just here to feel around and make mistakes without much of a price. I don't plan to go back to chain restaurants/fast food once I graduate. I might not end up at Tru or Jean Georges right away but I hope to build a solid foundation of progressively better establishments.

Hobbes · July 9, 2003

Thanks for the moral support elyse, tan319 and KateW. I am in a quandary all right but I am sure one of these days I will be back on my feet again working in a restaurant I can love. I do feel that if I go the "Cheesecake Factory route" I would be going against the work I have already done to establish myself in haute cuisine. Thanks for the compass rose in helping me find the direction I should go in.

TRU was a "very heavy row to hoe". I did feel that Jean George was much more manageable in workload and mise to prep. The flow and speed at Tru was just horrendous and could not keep my head above water even for a second. Everything at Tru was turned on to 110% and there was no room for even a slight learning curve to get me up to their high octane speed. My first day was break in day then after that (the 2nd day even) BAM I was turned loose expected to know everything like I had been there for years. I felt like the rug was pulled from underneath me and I had no time to even realize that there was a rug in the first place. You are very right Tan319 that "Everyplace is different" and I just gelled with JG and its over-ruling concept better than I did I TRU. I just enjoyed the more minimalist perspective JG had on his food than Tramanto did.

I feel that I will stick it out at keep my path true to the haute route but I do not know how to get an in so to speak. I am a workhorse and bear down and do not stop until the work is done. I am fueled by passion for food and its art, that is what keeps me going. And I also do not settle for 2nd best. I do the work right the first time so there will never be a second. I thought that this work ethic would be what chefs wanted. It seems to be not the case, or something else. I have, like I said in the last post, done 10 or so stages and all of them have resulted in dead ends. I need that in and I am not too sure how to get it. I am passionate and determined to keep at it and make no compromises but I need a job. I am not looking for that proverbial JG, that fame or perfection, in every restaurant I apply to; that is an unattainable goal to expect that. I just want to work in a solid kitchen with a knowledgeable chef where I can learn something and gain that experience I need to become a chef of my own. I need a "building block" restaurant not just a "filler" type. And that may be the Corporate route but I truly doubt it. The way to get to the top is to get the best you can and I am have a very hard time getting anything at all; even with my drive and Jean George experience under my belt. How to find that in and be dynamic about it is the problem I am having right now.

Thanks a lot

Hobbes :smile:

KateW · July 9, 2003

The flow and speed at Tru was just horrendous and could not keep my head above water even for a second. Everything at Tru was turned on to 110% and there was no room for even a slight learning curve to get me up to their high octane speed. My first day was break in day then after that (the 2nd day even) BAM I was turned loose expected to know everything like I had been there for years.

This is just how I felt, and still feel a little bit, at my job. And I can only imagine how tame the stress must be at Ruby Tuesday compared to the places you've been.

I guess I envisioned leisurely, loving care put into every dish at an upscale place but I guess it's just as fast paced as any joint, if not more so!

I can't imagine working that fast AND making the food look that good. The result looks so painstaking that it's hard to imagine doing it quickly. I guess that's why I admire it so much.

elyse · July 9, 2003

Never underestimate the stress level of a low-end place.

Hobbes · July 9, 2003

I just think that there is no way to avoid stress in any professional kitchen. The work is just hard and requires being fast. With time I am sure I will gain speed and confidence required, just need to stick with it. Ultimately I love the work and that is what counts, I guess.

KateW Posted on Jul 9 2003, 11:26 AM
I'm here because I didn't want my screwups to become high profile ;) Forgot pickles on the sandwich? No big deal. Forget something on a plate at those places you worked at? I think it would be a big deal. I'm just here to feel around and make mistakes without much of a price. I don't plan to go back to chain restaurants/fast food once I graduate. I might not end up at Tru or Jean Georges right away but I hope to build a solid foundation of progressively better establishments.

Ruby Tuesdays has fun food, none of this serious food that TRU orJean Georges has. You are right it must ease your mind somewhat to work at Ruby Tuesdays where there is not that serious tone. KateW stick with it you will find the restaurant you so desire in the end. My hope is that I will also aswell.

If hard work were such a wonderful thing, surely the rich would have kept it all to themselves.

-Lane Kirkland

Don't waste life in doubts and fears; spend yourself on the work before you, well assured that the right performance of this hour's duties will be the best preparation for the hours and ages that will follow it.

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

-Take Care

Hobbes

Louisa Chu · July 9, 2003

Hobbes and everyone else who feels the way you do out there - you do what you need to do until you can do what you want to do. If that means cooking at Cheesecake Fucking Factory or washing dishes at some unknown godforsaken place then do it.

Have faith.

Hobbes, did they give you specifics at TRU or any of these other places? Yeah, speed, organization, blah, blah, blah - bullshit - get them to give you specifics. And then work on it. And quite frankly, as a fellow perfectionist, perfection may not be your place in the kitchen - yet.

As for confidence, you may not feel it yet, but no one else needs to know that.

Believe in yourself.

tan319 · July 10, 2003

Hobbes,I read your post and I'm glad you're sounding better.

I didn't know you had done 10 stages!

Were they all in high end places?

Sounds like you're getting good experience no matter what :biggrin:

Maybe get a Zagats guide and look thru the listings and see if you jive with any of the places in there.

Realize that a TRU or a Trotters or a TRIO are going to be ass kicking, throw yourselve on the hand grenade type places, which are harrowing, to say the least. Maybe not TRIO, which has got to be another thing entirely to what all of us are probably used to.

And BTW, just to make things a bit clearer to everyone, I don't mean to seem snobby about the corporate, chainy, fast, but pretty decent food for what you pay for type places.

There have been times when I've thought about investigating the Pappas corp.(Pappadeux,Pappasitas,etc.) let's say, just for the security and the, well, security. (Also, there is an un verified rumour that Andrew MacLauchlan is their corp.pastry chef .) They turn out a pretty decent "product". I've not eaten at a lot of these places though.

If I was 16 or 17 and just starting out, no doubt I would try it out.

I worked with a guy who started out at a Red Lobster, went to the CIA, did his externship at Trotters, did another at Union Pacific, then was sous chef for Ken Oringer at Clio for a year.

It just seems that after spending all that cash on an expensive education, you might as well get killed on the line at a place that looks great on your resume instead of just getting killed on the line, 'knowwhatI'msayin'? :cool:

All the best!!!

tan319

elyse · July 10, 2003

From what I gather, the former just isn't happening though.

lostinNYC · July 10, 2003

as someone who is seriously contemplating attending the FCI very soon this is exactly the type of thing I am afraid of.

If anyone has any success stories of externships turning into job offers or stages turning into job offers I am desperate to hear them.

Hobbes.....I am also thinking about the ICE particularly due to the fact that they have externships in real restaurant kitchens...not a school kitchen. Do you think you would have been more prepared and things might have turned out differently if you had more real kitchen experience before graduation?? What did you think of the FCI...I would love to hear your thoughts...feel free to PM me. Hope it works out for you and keep your chin up.

Hobbes · July 10, 2003

Hi all,

For the record I am 26, no spring chicken but no grandpa either.

Yes Tan319 all of the stages I have done have been at lest 2 stars, most 3 some 4. And I am just starting out in the restaurant industry or rather trying to make this my full time career. I have had, before going to the FCI, about one and a half years experience in the back of the house as a cook and many more years in the front of the house. This work was to help me through college.

I am expanding my scope in finding the restaurant that will finally hire me. I have talked to a couple of high-end caters in the Chicagoland area and am getting some tentative on-call work for off-premises catering parties. This will keep me happy and viable until I can find a restaurant that I am happy with and that is happy with me. The latter seems to be the problem I am having. No fret, no worries. I will, once again, look through the zagat guides for Chicagoland and apply to the restaurants that I jive with. This will include the Cheesecake Factories, etc. I just worry that I will have a hard time rising back up to the haute level again? Chefs will ask why did I choose the Corporate route when you wanted to stay ultimately in the Haute arena . I would just tell them that I needed money, a job but still this concerns me very much. Eventually I will get over this concern, no worries. Don't get me wrong though, during college I lived at TGI Fridays, they have very good food.

Hobbes

Hobbes · July 10, 2003

......And

now with my experience and views on culinary schools, LostinNYC.

I do not know much about ICE, there were two women while I was having my externship at Jean George who were from ICE and doing a externship as well.

Hobbes.....I am also thinking about the ICE particularly due to the fact that they have externships in real restaurant kitchens...not a school kitchen.

That is true, the French Culinary Institute does not require an externship outside the experience a student has at L'Ecole, the FCI's restaurant. It is also true that this is a culinary schools restaurant, not a stand alone restaurant which its purpose is only to serve guests while L'Ecole is concerned with that as well they have a more primary concern and that is to teach. That fact, that the restaurant primary concern is to teach, would bother me if the food was not up to snuff but it is. Zagat guide survey, New York Times and Gourmet Magazine give it much respect. As it should. The deans of the FCI are NYC's old standard classical French chefs who include:

Alain Sailhac, Jacques Pépin, André Soltner, and Jacques Torres

These Chefs not only write the curriculum for all the FCI's professional programs and home cook programs but write the menus for L'Ecole and teach at the school. Allan Sailhac was there every day to help assist with my classes. Jacques Pepin was at the FCI teaching my class at least once or twice a month when I was there. These chefs have a huge interest in the FCI and bring clarity and respect to the curriculum of the FCI. I chose to go to the FCI because no other school teaches Classical French Cuisine as well due to the faculty which are superb (not including the above mentioned Chefs), the length of the program; only 6 months (610 hrs), a low 12:1 student-to-chef ratio, and that they have student housing.

My experience with Jean George for my externship was invaluable. Yes getting that experience outside your culinary institute's restaurant is very important; as one of my chef instructors said when we were graduating (in a strong french accent), "Ahhh, my little birdies are leaving their nest." My externship with JG was my out of the nest experience while I was still a student. This allowed me to simultaneously take what I learned at school that day and work on it at JG. I am a better cook because of it and would not have traded it for the world. And was not alone in finding my externship, FCI helped me find many externships, many at top restaurants but it just so happens I got my externship at JG because I asked him and he saw that I went to the FCI and he respects the FCI, he has seen what the school produces.

I am also thinking about the ICE particularly due to the fact that they have externships in real restaurant kitchens...not a school kitchen. Do you think you would have been more prepared and things might have turned out differently if you had more real kitchen experience before graduation??

More experience is more experience. Yes things would be different if I had more experience, no debating that. Jean George has a very large crew in his kitchen and many have been there for years and years. I was disappointed that I was not offered a job but was not that all too surprised; it Jean George- top restaurant in NYC and the nation. Jean George and his sous chefs liked the work I did and well just did not have the space for one more person. The economy I blame for that more than anything. There are just so many cooks and chefs out there without jobs that would have them otherwise if the economy is better. I see the economy as really the largest problem I am facing overall

Choosing ICE over FCI I am sure there are many pros and cons to it no doubt. But FCI not having a requirement for an externship did not hold me back at all. All culinary school is is a good coat of primer; it allows the finished product, the paint to go on as smoth as possible. No after going to the FCI I am not a Chef, I may not even be a cook yet (besides my lack of employment). By going to a culinary school (a good one at that) will allow the student to be teachable by a Chef in a restaurant. The student now working (being paid) in a restaurant has a foundation of knowledge which will then translate to skill then translate the student to be a cook. You will get as much as you put into culinary school as much as you get out of it. Culinary school is simple at that, an equation. Put energy here you get lots in return. But if you dont push yourself (at FCI, at ICE, at CIA, at anywhere) you will get zilch. I could have sat on my lorals and not asked for the externship at JG and only use what was given to me (which is good in its own right). Go to culinary school and be hungry for that adventure you will be on and be greedy and take in as much as you can; that is a formula that you can take anywhere.

--Andre Soltener:

"The Kitchens at The FCI spoil the students? They would be extremely lucky to encounter kitchens as well-designed or equipped as these in their careers."

--Alain Ducasse:

"It is truly amazing what The FCI accomplishes with their students in as little as six months. It is the equivalent of years of a traditional apprenticeship"

--David Bouley

"I have so much respect for The FCI that I hire their students the day they graduate."

--and that is the case. One of my fellow students at the FCI was given a job by Bouley himself. This job came only after my friend got an externship at Bouley.

--and another fellow student got an externship at RM which turned into a paying job while he was still a student. Whie he was there RM got its 3rd star from the NY times.

Well there that is my 2 cents worth

Good Day and take care

Hobbes

Hobbes · July 10, 2003

I was thinking....

one similarity between all the stages and interviews I have had in the past is that I never called the chef back after not hearing from him. I never followed up on the experience I had with the restaurant.

This post following post got me to reconsider the not calling so I called all the restaurants today that I had interviews/stages with.

To call, or not to call?

By doing so lots was made much more clear. The Chefs wanted to call but just never got around to it due to their jobs, as this above post states. I even got some good news. At one restaurant I called back the chef did not call me back because they are on a hiring freeze and had not hired anyone yet. And the chef said that he would call back if the freeze opened. And at another restaurant the chef told me that he was having a lot more stages of people coming in and made the hiring process a lot longer than he thought it would. He told me to call back Monday and he would have a decision by then.

I let you all know what happens.

ttyl

Hobbes

tan319 · July 10, 2003

From what I gather, the former just isn't happening though.

????????????????????????????

tan319 · July 10, 2003

hobbes, glad to hear that you called some places.

Sounds like some good stuff.

It sounds like FCI is pretty solid.

That's where I would go if I wanted to furthur educate myself.

Or a stage at Oriol Balaguers place :biggrin:

elyse · July 10, 2003

From what I gather, the former just isn't happening though.
????????????????????????????

Which part isn't clear?

tan319 · July 11, 2003

From what I gather, the former just isn't happening though.
????????????????????????????
Which part isn't clear?

It's a mystery to me...

Maybe that I'm bugging you with my view of corporate restaurants.

I hope not,though.

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