Portland-Seattle shootout....

[nightscotsman]

I would say the cost of living (excluding housing) is about the same is both cities. True, Oregon has no sales tax, but Washington has no income tax, so that mostly evens out. Taking the bus in Seattle costs $1.25 during non-peak hours and $1.50 (I think) on-peak. Ferries to the islands and across the bay are getting kind of expensive for commuting with a car, but that's only if you end up living across the water. It is nice to be able hop on a ferry from downtown or West Seattle and take a mini-vacation for the day.

I think I could get by OK on about $30,000 a year in Seattle (with benefits), but I would be much more comfortable making $40,000 or more. In my last job I made a little over $55,000 and was able to save more than enough for a down payment on my condo. It depends on how much you want to travel, eat out, and save for retirement, or if you have to have a really nice new car.

Damn, I do miss Powell's though. But on-line book shopping mostly makes up for it. The public library system in Seattle is quite good. Construction is underway on a huge (and controversial) new main branch downtown, and it's very easy to reserve a book, video, or CD online and have it delivered to your local branch. And if the city library doesn't have what you want, you can get an inter-library loan from any of surounding cities and counties.

[inventolux]

In 1995 I bought a 1200sqft 3 bed, 3 bath for 43k in Ptld. There is a HUD program in Ptld that aides first time home buyers with tons of incentives for real estate investments in low income neighborhoods. You are also able to get these homes through REO's or with little or no money out of pocket.

Edited June 11, 2003 by inventolux (log)

[malarkey]

What I'm concerned about Aquitaine, is that you said you have seasonal affective disorder. The biggest impact on you living here is going to be our grey weather and the lack of sunshine. I moved to Ashland from the midwest and it took me a LOOONG time to adjust to the weather. After living there for 4 years, I moved to Seattle and have been here for 18 years. Getting away during the winter is a good idea. Hawaii, even southern california or arizona, wherever its warm & sunny will do wonders. I also have full-spectrum lighting in my house. This is the one thing that gave me pause in your original post. If you do come do a trial visit, come during the winter just to see how it is.

[duckduck]

For Portland $1.25 to 1.55 for public transit which I've been told by others is the best anywhere. It runs often, goes anywhere (except after midnight when they pretty much roll up the sidewalks.) A $56 monthly pass will take you anywhere you want to go anytime you want to go. I take home roughly $1200 a month share an apartment and I live just fine. I think it just depends on your standards. I eat out probably too much but I don't own a car. Whenever I've heard about prices in N.Y. (especially cigarettes) it always blows me away because it's always so much higher than here. There's a place here in town that can help you put together a light box with full spectrum tubes and I believe it ran my mother about $50 to put one together. More later...

[duckduck]

Oh, and by the way...I'm at the downtown branch of the library where I use the computer several nights a week and the cookbook section alone will keep you busy for a long time. I do love living at Powell's though. What is it they say? Largest bookstore this side of the Rockies and second largest in the U.S. or something like that...

[beans]

Oh, talk about homesick. Sorry, going slightly off topic here. [Knorthrup did you get to see this too?]

It's on at this moment in my PBS televised market, but by all means and if at all possible, catch The Harriman Alaskan Expedition wherein railroad tycoon Edward Harriman's 1899 journey along the Alaskan coast is retraced. I saw people I knew! People I was related to! And places yet to explore myself. Geesz, they traveled to the itty bitty Siberian islands! Shared food, lore and tradition. Awe inspiring.

Golly, I'm proud of where I grew up and of the rich Tlingit cultural heritage, by which I am very much a part of too.

*sigh*

Edited June 12, 2003 by beans (log)

[Random Alias]

Damn, I do miss Powell's though. But on-line book shopping mostly makes up for it. The public library system in Seattle is quite good. Construction is underway on a huge (and controversial) new main branch downtown, and it's very easy to reserve a book, video, or CD online and have it delivered to your local branch.

They used to deliver it to your hourse. Go online to the Library's site, request some books, and about a week later they arrived in the mail. That was amazing...but it ended in '93 or so.

[Random Alias]

And while I can purchase a light box, I am subject to Seasonal Affective Disorder, so the more clear skies the better (although the weather certainly is a crap shoot these days, it seems).

I no longer live in Seattle, but did from about '92 to '02.

As I no longer live there, civic pride is not on the line.

I can tell you about the weather.

It is gray - a lot. You know all those beautiful pictures of Seattle with the Space Needle in the foreground, and Mt Rainier against clear blue skies in the background? Those were all taken at Kerry Park...in August, otherwise you'd never see Mt. Rainier. It's cloudy there for days at a time. You can go for weeks without seeing the sun. Sure it'll pop out from time to time, but if you're inside working, did it really happen? Just picture a unending monocromatic cover of gray clouds for 9 months out of the year. As a bonus, in the Winter the days are short, it gets dark at 4:00pm.

This is what it looks like - a lot.

It's also wet. As someone else said, it rains a little, a lot. You can walk around in the rain for hours and not really get wet, but take a step out onto your yard and you'll sink down a few inches as the ground will be saturated. The roads will be wet. Your car will be dirty. You will acquire a collection of light weight rain gear - probably from REI. Moss will grow on your roof. Moss will grow on your driveway. Moss will grow on everything, Seattle is very, very green. It's also chilly, not cold, but not warm either. After a few years, friends and family will visit and marvel at how cold you keep your house. You will visit them and marvel at how hot and humid it is.

Gray skies, light mist, 45°. That's Seattle weather 9 months out of the year. The other 3 months can be extremely nice, but there's no guarantee, sometimes Summer forgets to happen, then again sometimes it happens more than it should.

Aside from that, the traffic is the 2nd worst in the nation. It's not a joke, it can take 20 minutes to travel 1 mile, so pick where you live with the commute in mind. And of course, houses are expensive. Houses in the city even more so, but coming from New York it probably won't elicit the type of sticker shock someone from a smaller city might experience.

That's about it, the weather and the traffic. Get past those things and it's a really nice place to live. Extremely low crime, friendly people, beautiful surroundings, lots of outdoor activities, good choice of restaurants, excellent seafood, and plenty of other reasons to live there. Take in the city, the Sound, and the mountains on a nice summer day and it's probably one of the nicest places you could be.

Oh yeah, almost forgot, virtually no mosquitos and no ticks either.

[Aquitaine]

Oh, my goodness. I guess I've deliberately kept myself from focusing on just how badly the gray skies get me, and just how extensive the cloud coverage (and damp) is in Seattle. So much going for Seattle...and so much going for Portland, too. Nice of you folks to express concern and try to open my eyes to the reality (seriously -- thanks, duckduck and malarkey; and to Random Alias, who provided laughter amid the tears).

I've always wondered whether how people compensate for the gloomy weather -- some people, apparently (nota bene Nightscotsman) aren't particularly affected, and some make friends with the travel agents and skip town in the winter. But what about the other 8 1/2 months?

Well, I'm going to go visit anyway -- both towns, possibly in the next couple of months (I know, I know...best weather of the year, deceptive etc.)

Meanwhile, maybe I'll start looking into Florida.

[Aquitaine]

Oh, my goodness. I guess I've deliberately kept myself from focusing on just how badly the gray skies get me, and just how extensive the cloud coverage (and damp) is in Seattle. So much going for Seattle...and so much going for Portland, too. Nice of you folks to express concern and try to open my eyes to the reality (seriously -- thanks, duckduck and malarkey; and to Random Alias, who provided laughter amid the tears).

I've always wondered whether how people compensate for the gloomy weather -- some people, apparently (nota bene Nightscotsman) aren't particularly affected, and some make friends with the travel agents and skip town in the winter. But what about the other 8 1/2 months?

Well, I'm going to go visit anyway -- both towns, possibly in the next couple of months (I know, I know...best weather of the year, deceptive etc.)

Meanwhile, maybe I'll start looking into Florida.

[mamster]

Well, the summer counts for a lot--our summers are the nation's best, hands down. Lots and lots of 75-degree sunny days, although it's often gray in the morning and sunny the rest of the day. On the other hand, I like 60-degree overcast days, and I don't mind a spot of rain. Most people here, I think you'll find, are at least neutral on the weather and many like it; the ones who couldn't take it got out.

Then again, I quite literally left southern California because I couldn't stand the weather.

[Aquitaine]

...by all means and if at all possible, catch The Harriman Alaskan Expedition wherein railroad tycoon Edward Harriman's 1899 journey along the Alaskan coast is retraced. ...

Beans, I missed that program and had wanted to see it. Thank goodness it will be rebroadcast. In case you want to read the Smithsonian magazine article about the expedition (June), here is a link: "North to Alaska"

BTW, where do you live now?

Edited June 12, 2003 by Aquitaine (log)

[22tango]

I adore PNW weather!! Frankly, freezing cold and the dead brown landscapes of the east coast are more depressing to me than the mild, green (yet overcast) weather in Seattle. Dirty slush and salted, gritty trash on sidewalks all winter just add to my longing to be back home in damp, clean Seattle. Spring can be a little depressing because you're ready for some sun (and we're usually teased by beautiful sunny days in February followed by grey drizzle in March)...but our flowers bloom in riotous profusion which keeps me very Happy!! And as others have already pointed out, summers are definately the best!!

[tighe]

When I was in school in Boston, I found I had a different strain of seasonal dissaffective disorder....I got twitchy when it went too long without raining. I think the days upon days of grey are a much bigger issue for non-natives.

[beans]

Hi. I'm in Cleveland now, and at the rate of our current recent weather conditions, it has been much like the Pacific Northwet. Cooler, cloudy and rainy. Business-wise, it annoys me because it is keeping our customers indoors and/or at home. After all it is home graduation celebrations galore right now so customer traffic has been markedly slow city wide. I suppose we're off to a slow start for the hot sunny summer Cleveland normally gets. Damn I used to almost bribe my managers for tiki bar shifts! *wink*

However, I never seem to notice how the gray skys affected me. It was just a fact of life. Personally, there are many times I often look forward to those dark grey days with misty rain here in Cleveland! Admittedly not lately!

With gray skies above you'd be surprised at how many pot lucks (this is very Alaskan) on Saturdays with friends, cards and rented movies take place. The public libraries are busy and reading is a popular past time. As a matter of fact the large part of my craftsy projects (wreaths, jewelry, candle/soap making) all came out of when I last resided in Sitka. But I enjoyed it immensely.

Moss covering your roof is something that is no shock. Oh, and never carry an umbrella. That's a sign of a tourist! (hee hee)

[Aquitaine]

OK, now we know how miserable the weather can be, but how it's a matter of perspective...(and I will HAVE to look like a geek and use an umbrella -- I wear glasses)

I know you have great seafood and great produce. So let's talk cheese...as in, artisanal, cut-to-order, available at decent prices. I'm a big cheese fan. And I shop European-style (or perhaps that went out with World War II????), i.e., from one store I buy my bread, another I buy cheese, at another produce....very cherry-picking style...and lug home all these bags by foot (OK, sometimes by subway or bus). Wastes a lot of time, unless you actually like food shopping (which I do, when there aren't 3 zillion people cramming the narrow aisles and literally 100 people in front of you on line at Whole Food.....).

So what's the local cheese shop/department scoop in Seattle or Portland? Or is there an egullet thread I should check out?

[tighe]

So what's the local cheese shop/department scoop in Seattle or Portland? Or is there an egullet thread I should check out?

In Seattle there's not much in the way of stand-alone cheese shops, but there are excellent cheese departments at Whole Foods, Larry's Markets and the Queen Anne Thriftway.

[MsRamsey]

DeLaurenti's (a large gourmet food store at Pike Place Market) has a great cheese department, and there is another (stand-alone) cheese shop at Pike Place Market.

Edited June 12, 2003 by MsRamsey (log)

[thelastsupper]

It's true . . . since James Cook went down cheese in Seattle just isn't quite the same. . .

But DeLaurenti's in the Pike Place Market is quite formidable in many ways, albeit somewhat expensive. They have a terriffic great cheese and wine selection, along with numerous Italian, Spanish and French imported food items.

[beans]

Cheeses. Be on the look out for the local and/or regional cheeses from Tillamook (cheddar), Oregon blue cheeses from the lush Rogue River Valley. I'm not sure of the folks of the Matanuska agricultural area of Alaska are hand crafting cheese, but they may be, so keep your eyes open!

Edit: A list of resources I knew I had laying around somewhere in the filing box -- although some of it may be out dated, be sure to check!

Be on the look out for these producers:

Rogue Gold Dairy, Inc.

Grants Pass, Oregon

- 18 varieties of cheeses, including blud, cheddar, jack, smoked and raw milk cheddar

Rogue River Valley Creamery

Central Point, Oregon

-Oregon blue cheese

Rollinghouse Chevre

Parma, Idaho

-Goat cheeses

Sally Jackson Cheeses

Oroville, Washington

-Handmade cow, goat and sheep's milk cheeses

Talk Talk Dairy

Canby, Oregon

Goat milk cheeses, yogurt, German and summer sausages

Enjoy!

Edited June 12, 2003 by beans (log)

[thelastsupper]

You see? Everyone love's DeLaurenti's!

Edited June 12, 2003 by thelastsupper (log)

[KNorthrup]

Portland also has a Whole Foods, so large cheese section there. No dedicated cheese shops that I know of, but a few gourmet delis with good selections - Elephant's, Pastaworks (2 locations).

[trillium]

The farmer's market at Portland also has a couple of cheese booths from people here in Oregon making cheese. One guy makes more Italian style cheeses the other I never checked out because I didn't see enough soft washed rinds to fight my way through the crowds of tourists.

I'm another PNW weather lover. Once in Chicago it got really misty and foggy and people freaked out and wouldn't drive (but they'll drive in a foot of snow). It made me homesick for days. I can't stand too much hot/humid weather and then if you survive you're force-marched through about 6 months of cold so bad it hurts to breathe. I'll take the rain.

regards,

trillium

[beans]

I'm another PNW weather lover.  Once in Chicago it got really misty and foggy and people freaked out and wouldn't drive (but they'll drive in a foot of snow).  It made me homesick for days.  I can't stand too much hot/humid weather and then if you survive you're force-marched through about 6 months of cold so bad it hurts to breathe.  I'll take the rain.

Words fail me! Particularlly the "cold so bad it hurts to breathe" !!!!

However what a hoot to watch all those scurry about in a ice/sleet/snow storm in Seattle! It's been awhile for me to witness this, but it was kind of a scream when I had to endure and became a little more accustomed to some of the arctic blasts off of good ole Lake Erie.

[Jim Dixon]

One of my mottos: I live for cheese.

If I could only eat one food for the rest of my life, it would be cheese.

A couple of weeks back the Oregonian ran this story on Oregon cheesemakers. It gives a nice rundown of the current artisinal producers, which doesn't include Tillamook. I like their aged cheddar fine, but my all-time favorite Oregon cheddar from Bandon Creamery just hasn't been the same since Tillamook bought them out.

I've eaten many pounds of Juniper Grove's various goat cheese. The tomme was recognized by Slow Food and reminds me of the caprino we ate in Friuli. The cumin seed tomme is really good, as is the soft smoked chevre.

A few weeks back I got one of the last rounds of the raw milk camembert from Oregon Gourmet Cheese, and last week at the farmers market brought them into my oil-for-food program...I traded a bottle of olive oil for camembert and fromage blanc. The fromage blanc is mild and crumbly, but I spread some on Ken's apple bread for breakfast this morning and discovered a new favorite. Sometimes they also have Oregonzola, an Italian-style blue first made by Tom Vella at Rogue Creamery.

I normally prefer strong flavors, but the gouda and havarti from Willamette Valley (also at the PFM) are bringing me around to the subtle pleasures of cheese that tastes like the milk it was made from, in this case a herd of Jerseys.

I was always envious when I'd see the cheesemakers at the Ferry Plaza market in SF. Oregon has always had lots of dairies, but only a couple of cheesemakers. But all of the artisinal cheesemakers say the same thing: Oregon has better milk to make cheese from because the cows can eat pasture grass all year long.

Jim