Toward a Discerning Diners' Civil Code

tommy · May 13, 2003

The knee-jerk solution of recooking the entree all to often just doesn't cut it. Take an overcooked steak. From the time the server is summoned (1-5 minutes) to the time the server gets back to the kitchen and communicates the problem to the line (3-5 minutes) to the time it takes to recook the steak (5-10 minutes) or grab one from another order in progress (2-5 minutes and throws off another table's timing) to the time it takes for the server to pick it up and get it back to the diner (3-7 minutes), the chances are that everyone else at the table is probably half way through to all the way through their entree. The entreless diner is just sitting there watching them eat or filling up on rolls. Then he gets to eat his entree while everyone watches him.
Not all that great a solution.

at some places, they'll give you a steak (in this situation) that was ordered for another table, only slightly holding up that table and yours. of course, it depends on the competence of the staff, both front room and kitchen.

KatieLoeb · May 13, 2003

Being in the restaurant biz, and working/having worked at numerous high end establishments, I have to say that there is NOTHING worse than getting a nasty letter from a customer after the fact, that when the situation is investigated, you find out repeated told the server, "No, no. Everything is fine.", even as they are disgustedly pushing their meal around their plate. The meal goes back to the dishroom virtually untouched. The manager asks if everything was alright. "Oh, yes. Just lovely thank you." Etc. "May we get you something else? Perhaps dessert or an after dinner cocktail with our compliments?" "Oh no. I couldn't possibly have another bite, thank you."

You see where I'm going with this. Some customers are just passive/aggressive, or just too shy to say anything AT THE TIME, WHEN THE RESTAURANT STILL HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO FIX IT!!! This drives me nuts. They are perfectly happy to go home and write a three page MANI-FRIGGIN-FESTO about how you screwed up their anniversary, birthday dinner, embarrassed them in front of an important client, etc, they will NEVER patronize your establishment ever again, blah-blah, but will do absolutely nothing at the time to give the restaurant staff the chance to fix the problem that we are either clairvoyantly supposed to sense, or are are flat out LIED TO about by them. Grrrrr..... :angry:

On the flip side, it IS, as Holly stated, good will and good karma to try and make this as painless for the customer as possible, be that painless economically with no charge for the offending dish, or painless with comped dessert, drinks, whatever. Restaurants DO screw up. Sometimes waiters get in the weeds and don't pick up their food. Not every restaurant has the luxury of having food runners, expediters, etc. The structure varies depending on the establishment and what their payroll and volume considerations will allow. Soemtimes the kitchen messes up. Doesn't matter which. It's better to send that person out the door happy, if they have the sense to let you KNOW something was not pleasing about their experience. This assumes you don't have Passive/Aggressive customer outlined above.

Edited May 13, 2003 by KatieLoeb (log)

tommy · May 13, 2003

unfortunately, katie, many customers believe that if they complain or point out shortcomings in service or food, they will get their steak thrown on the ground and their pasta spit in. and i must say, i've seen food professionals, even on this site, suggest that this happens. chefs aren't known for their confidence and rock-solid egos. that takes its toll on the business and customers' willingness to voice their displeasure. however, if more people wrote letters, we'd be going in the right direction. but, people don't like writing letters.

Edited May 13, 2003 by tommy (log)

Holly Moore · May 13, 2003

...however, if more people wrote letters, we'd be going in the right direction. but, people don't like writing letters.

Interesting opportunity for message drift. I wonder if the number of written complaints has soared with the advent and ease of email?

tommy · May 13, 2003

holly, perhaps. but it takes a lot more to go out of your way to get an email address than it does to just say "fuck em, i'm not going back", and to tell your friends the same. the thing is, so many restaurants' websites are so underdeveloped, that the tech-savvy assume that the email link that is provided will just end up in a black hole. i'm guilty of thinking just that. however, if moved, i'll write a letter, old-school, as that's still the only professional way of handling a complaint.

technology and email oftentimes make it easier for people to piss in the wind. that's just the reality of it. letters, however, copied to the local paper, can still have an impact. from the other side, good and proactive customer service goes a long way as well.

Edited May 13, 2003 by tommy (log)

pjs · May 13, 2003

Good point Tommy. A scathing well-written letter delivered by the USPS takes more work to compose and send but it's impact on the the other end is so much more effective. E-mail is just too easy.

PJ

Random Alias · May 13, 2003

holly, perhaps. but it takes a lot more to go out of your way to get an email address than it does to just say "fuck em, i'm not going back", and to tell your friends the same. the thing is, so many restaurants' websites are so underdeveloped, that the tech-savvy assume that the email link that is provided will just end up in a black hole. i'm guilty of thinking just that. however, if moved, i'll write a letter, old-school, as that's still the only professional way of handling a complaint.
technology and email oftentimes make it easier for people to piss in the wind. that's just the reality of it. letters, however, copied to the local paper, can still have an impact. from the other side, good and proactive customer service goes a long way as well.

So restaurants should set up a discussion board such as this.

Imagine the impact that would have. You go to a restaurant's web site and have a discussion about how you ate there last nite and the tuna was overcooked.

To some extent this board and others like it already serve that purpose, but I would bet the average diner isn't Internet savy enough to find them yet. However, 10 years from now (or less) it's going to be a different story. One good example of this today is Reseller Ratings. When you're shopping for computer parts and going for that lowest priced source, this site is a good stop.

....and you don't even want to consider the day when people are able to have wireless real time video from cameras small enough to be easily concealed. Why write about your dinner at the French Laundry when you can broadcast it live to the Net?

Basildog · May 13, 2003

Very good point Random.It's why i tell all the restaurants i know to check out egullet...they may be being discussed here , and honest feedback is sometimes hard to find.And a right to reply is usefull aswell :biggrin:

and i see that tommy has been going back into the achive :laugh:

KatieLoeb · May 13, 2003

unfortunately, katie, many customers believe that if they complain or point out shortcomings in service or food, they will get their steak thrown on the ground and their pasta spit in. and i must say, i've seen food professionals, even on this site, suggest that this happens. chefs aren't known for their confidence and rock-solid egos. that takes its toll on the business and customers' willingness to voice their displeasure.

Tommy:

This may be true in (what I hope are) extremely isolated instances, but don't you think the customer has a responsibility to be pro-active in A) attempting to fix their problem and B) in allowing the restaurant an opportunity to provide good customer service? This sort of reminds me of the "if you don't vote, you can't bitch about the politicians" argument. It's one thing to have a legitimate complaint that HASN'T been addressed appropriately by the restaurant and another to simply refuse to allow the management and staff the opportunity to try and fix the problem, be it because of "embarrassment" or some phobia about having your food spit in. Especially if you LIE to the staff when they try to help you.

however, if more people wrote letters, we'd be going in the right direction. but, people don't like writing letters.

I agree that a well elucidated letter is often the answer. But this should be AFTER the other options have failed. My point was that the letter writers are often the very customers that insist nothing is wrong, when clearly it is. Maitre'd, floor managers and waiters can be quite accomodating, but they aren't clairvoyant, and they aren't in a position to force their customers to take their "solution" to the problem either, even when they know there is one. Any professional I know would much rather return a plate to the kitchen for reheating or replacement, not charge someone, comp dessert or drinks, or any one of a number of other solutions, before letting that customer walk out the door unhappy. But the need the opportunity to DO that.

elyse · May 13, 2003

I've said elsewhere that what I do in this situation depends on the feeling I'm getting at that moment. IF I feel that my food will come back improved, I will send it back. IF I fell that the waiter/chef or anyone in between will resent my appeal, I will just ask them to remove it, and remove it from the check. IF it's really not too bad, I will tell the manager so improvements can be made in the future, but continue to eat it. And I do believe I am one of the ones who has told about witnessing a spit or wipe plate.

Also, there are several reasons people don't bring it up at the table. Making their companions uncomfortable being one. For some people, they're only comfortable at home, at a desk.

Edited May 13, 2003 by elyse (log)

Pan · May 13, 2003

And I do believe I am one of the ones who has told about witnessing a spit or wipe plate.

How did you notice it. Please let us in on the story.

elyse · May 13, 2003

I noticed it by applying for a job and working in the kitchen.... :biggrin:

Sorry, no particular story, just disgruntled co-workers.

Edited May 13, 2003 by elyse (log)

pjs · May 14, 2003

This may be true in (what I hope are) extremely isolated instances, but don't you think the customer has a responsibility to be pro-active in A) attempting to fix their problem and B) in allowing the restaurant an opportunity to provide good customer service?.

The customer also needs to assess what the restaurant is capable of. I've witnessed a order for a Black and Blue steak sent back twice and finally abandoned. The place bent over backwards to try to acommodate the request but couldn't because no one out here in the boondocks knew at the time what a Black and Blue steak was. And this was a $20.00+ entree at a very good restaurant. It cast a pall over the whole dinner.

BTW The first attempt was nice, hot and bloody rare. I would of gladly kept it instead of trying to one-up the kitchen.

PJ

Holly Moore · May 14, 2003

BTW The first attempt was nice, hot and bloody rare. I would of gladly kept it instead of trying to one-up the kitchen.

What, and deprive the dish machine operator of a decent dinner?

Elissa · May 14, 2003

unfortunately, katie, many customers believe that if they complain or point out shortcomings in service or food, they will get their steak thrown on the ground and their pasta spit in. and i must say, i've seen food professionals, even on this site, suggest that this happens.

tommy, seems to me, rather hits the crux here. In general, diners are vulnerable and have no way of knowing if their chefs are of the lunger-hocking sort or not. However, customers can also be spoiled and base their rejections on ghosts in the wind. That concerns me too, but it seems as if none of the chefs here have had that happen much.

The other night - inspiring this thread - I dipped into an Italian place I'd wanted to try in the East Village about which several eGs had good things to say. I ordered sea bass, my friend ravioli. We didn't order apps, but I ordered a side broccoli rabe it because it is one of my favorite things to eat, ever. He had a beer and I was drinking deLiciouS Allegrini by the glass. When the food arrived, the sea bass smelled fishy. Sometimes that fish smell leaves and the fish turns out not to be bad, so I moved it over to dig into the broccoli rabe: the friend with whom I was dining is one of those 'don't eat anything green' types anyhow.

The waiter, who was really nice and seemed quite pro, came over and asked if something was wrong. I smiled and said: yeah, the fish smells kinda funky. He swept the plate away and brought me a menu. I ordered steak instead, rare, which arrived actually just as my friend finished his ravioli. This oddly made the timing kind of perfect: the ravioli turned out to have been an appetizer for us (he gave me a couple , though he did not try the rabe - which was subtle and perfectly done) and we shared the steak - which was really good. Great I might say, with one of those potato gratin square thingys on the side that was perfectly browned on the top; also maybe some string beans. Turned out to be a fine meal: under the stars on a warm night, with good wine and good food. One of the few meals at restaurants of this caliber whose stunning medioricty wouldn't piss you off. And for interested parties I'd recommend a visit soon, as such quality is bound to pass.

But then the bill came, and on it there were three entrees: ravioli, fish and steak. I had the feeling, that I now think was mistaken, this was purposeful; that the chef or whoever had decided that there was nothing wrong with the fish I returned and that he was going to charge me for it anyway. The place had not been full when we arrived, but by this time was indeed slammed. I looked at the check, added it up, and realized that were we to leave $100, more than 20% would be included for the waiter. If, that is, the fish were removed from the bill, which as is came in at $96.

Now, I rather think I should have said something at the time, but assume they figured it out. Have to wonder though: was that a mistake? Did they expect me to pay for the fish? It seemed a good confrontationless solution, just to leave money and juke without altercation, but I felt bad afterwards. In the end I would have rather asked if they intended to charge me or not. Next time...

Chef/Writer Spencer · May 14, 2003

Lissome....If the bass was on the bill they intended to charge you for it without a doubt. What probably happened is they rung the bass up, "forgot" to delete it when printing out the final check, and crossed their fingers when presenting it to you. It happens all the time. The waiter, unless he gets indignant in your defense and demands that the manager do something about it, was probably hoping you'd overlook the discrepancy and tip 20% on the three entrees.

Not all waiters are dubious fools but that element is prevalent in the industry. I did stuff like that all the time when I was a waiter. In my mind I'd drop the check with the third entree on it and if the customer complained about it I'd play stupid and give em a good, "Oh my...I'm glad you caught that. My co-worker didn't show up this morning so I'm doing the job of two. I apologize that I didn't catch that..." Give em an award winning smile (waiters never mean those smiles), and head back to the terminal with the manager so the entree could be deleted. If you didn't catch the error then I'm drinking Heineken instead of PBR.

As a chef though, if I sense that a customer is getting screwed I'm having a sit down in the office with said party. Most waiters are good people, capable of immeasurable acts of false consideration (dealing with the public, especially the dining public is a true test of the human condition) but there are fringe elements that are still fighting off the effects of a late night bender that clouds their judgement. Always voice yourself tactfully and you'll be better off.

Edited May 14, 2003 by Chef/Writer Spencer (log)

elyse · May 14, 2003

tommy, seems to me, rather hits the crux here. In general, diners are vulnerable and have no way of knowing if their chefs are of the lunger-hocking sort or not. However, customers can also be spoiled and base their rejections on ghosts in the wind. That concerns me too, but it seems as if none of the chefs here have had that happen much.

Except for me, as I've just said, and I've seen it in several restaurant that I've worked in.

But then the bill came, and on it there were three entrees: ravioli, fish and steak. I had the feeling, that I now think was mistaken, this was purposeful; that the chef or whoever had decided that there was nothing wrong with the fish I returned and that he was going to charge me for it anyway. The place had not been full when we arrived, but by this time was indeed slammed. I looked at the check, added it up, and realized that were we to leave $100, more than 20% would be included for the waiter. If, that is, the fish were removed from the bill, which as is came in at $96.
Now, I rather think I should have said something at the time, but assume they figured it out. Have to wonder though: was that a mistake? Did they expect me to pay for the fish? It seemed a good confrontationless solution, just to leave money and juke without altercation, but I felt bad afterwards. In the end I would have rather asked if they intended to charge me or not. Next time...

Well, it's very possible you've just screwed the waiter.

tommy · May 14, 2003

Well, it's very possible you've just screwed the waiter.

how? the server was tipped the same regardless of if the dish was taken off of the bill.

elyse · May 14, 2003

As I read it, the bill came to $96.00, and Lissome left $100.00 in total without saying anything to the waiter or manager. The manager may collect on the entire bill, leaving the waiter a four dollar tip. I've seen that too. Now if the waiter did it intentionally, fuck him, he deserves it. If it was an honest albeit sloppy mistake, the problem should have been pointed out and the waiter tipped appropriately.

tommy · May 14, 2003

ah. you're absolutely right. it would have been best to talk to the manager and demand that it be taken off the bill. otherwise, it's between the restaurant and the server, and you know who's going to win that argument.

elyse · May 14, 2003

I have a sneaking suspicion.

aliwaks · May 14, 2003

I send stuff back I do if it's not cooked properly or it's off (esp fish) or in one case a chicken salad that was so very unappetizing I couldn't bare to have it in front off me (FYI the replacement item came with a lovely addition, a metal coil from a scrub brush needless to say will not be patronizing that estb. again) What I cannnot stand....is the people who complain after they have finished every last bite and this happens here every once in a while in fact just last weekend.

I had a 4 top 2 of which ordered the trout, the server did the first drop by everythinig ok yes yes then when it came time to order dessert the trout was terrible not fresh and on top of it there wasn't enough of it (hmmm it's 8 oz BTW).

I ask you how should I deal with that. I want to say well then ass why did you eat the whole thing if it was so bad you could have sent the plate back then the chef & I can taste it and determine whether you are right in which case we will refund, offer another choice (most likely on the house as well) and even if we think you are wrong which can happen we will do the same becasue we want you to leave here happy.

If you eat the whole thing then say it was terrible we have to then take your word for it..which is a dilemma because neither Amanda or I will eat an entire plate spoiled fish so we assume that you are one of those people who complain for the sport of it and possibly want a free dessert...which unfortunately for me I will give you anyway ( I ended up taking one trout off & offering them desserts on me and they were still nasty people)

In general I send things back if they are undercooked, overcooked or spoiled, slimy has a bug etc because as a restaurant owner I want to know if food that is unacceptable comes out of the kitchen and so I extend the same courtesy to others in my business, if I think it just wasn't that great then I make a mental note not to go back.

aliwaks · May 14, 2003

This may be true in (what I hope are) extremely isolated instances, but don't you think the customer has a responsibility to be pro-active in A) attempting to fix their problem and B) in allowing the restaurant an opportunity to provide good customer service?.
The customer also needs to assess what the restaurant is capable of. I've witnessed a order for a Black and Blue steak sent back twice and finally abandoned. The place bent over backwards to try to acommodate the request but couldn't because no one out here in the boondocks knew at the time what a Black and Blue steak was. And this was a $20.00+ entree at a very good restaurant. It cast a pall over the whole dinner.
BTW The first attempt was nice, hot and bloody rare. I would of gladly kept it instead of trying to one-up the kitchen.
PJ

I had a customer order a steak "pittsburgh " then send it back because it was too rare and he really wanted it medium-well, need I include a glossary of steak terms with my menu

elyse · May 14, 2003

I ask you how should I deal with that. I want to say well then ass why did you eat the whole thing if it was so bad you could have sent the plate back then the chef & I can taste it and determine whether you are right in which case we will refund, offer another choice (most likely on the house as well) and even if we think you are wrong which can happen we will do the same becasue we want you to leave here happy.
If you eat the whole thing then say it was terrible we have to then take your word for it..which is a dilemma because neither Amanda or I will eat an entire plate spoiled fish so we assume that you are one of those people who complain for the sport of it and possibly want a free dessert...which unfortunately for me I will give you anyway ( I ended up taking one trout off & offering them desserts on me and they were still nasty people)

After consuming an entire plate of spoiled fish, I'd be damned tempted to offer them a ride to the hospital and DEMAND they take it.

WHT · May 14, 2003

-Eric

Tell your waiter that you want the food hotter. Reality 101.

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