Can Truly Good Italian Food Travel?

[Steve Plotnicki]

But you have answered your own question. The reason that Italian food in London tastes different then the Italian food in Liguria is because they source the ingredients from different places. And you know what, that's why it tastes differently in Nice as well. Or are you saying that there is some genetic deficiency that chef's acquire once they walk through customs at Heathrow that would prevent them from preparing food in the same manner?

[Adam Balic]

But you have answered your own question. The reason that Italian food in London tastes different then the Italian food in Liguria is because they source the ingredients from different places. And you know what, that's why it tastes differently in Nice as well. Or are you saying that there is some genetic deficiency that chef's acquire once they walk through customs at Heathrow that would prevent them from preparing food in the same manner?

I think that this has a large part to do with it, yes (sourcing etc), however, put of it is also that regionalism specific attitutes breaks down as well, once you leave the defining area. eg. In Tuscany there is a well known cake (whos name excapes me), in Siena it is always topped with pinenuts, in Florence with almonds. Not only are the ingredients different the attitude is as well. In Siena it has to be made with pinenuts, otherwise people will not eat it (have watched a friend who was raised in Siena pick off all the offending almonds of a Florentine cake). These important regional distinctions breakdown after transplantation for foreigners.

[Steve Plotnicki]

That is too esoteric an example. A good example is the Tuscan chef Beppe who opened up on 22nd Street. You couldn't get a more authentic Tuscan chef and his food tastes nothing like Tuscan food tastes in Italy. So the problem is not with him, or with the attitude, but with the ingredients.

If you are a chef and you have access to fantastic mozzarella, you are not afraid to serve it sliced and by itself with a small cruet of olive oil. But if the mozz is not as special, you are looking for something like tomatoes or peppers to serve it with. So this attitude people are describing is merely an outgrowth of what the ingredients are capable of. Local disputes about what kind of nuts go on top of cakes aside.

[Adam Balic]

This from the man who disputes 'squashed' verses 'sliced' tomato?

[Adam Balic]

If you are a chef and you have access to fantastic mozzarella, you are not afraid to serve it sliced and by itself with a small cruet of olive oil. But if the mozz is not as special, you are looking for something like tomatoes or peppers to serve it with. So this attitude people are describing is merely an outgrowth of what the ingredients are capable of. Local disputes about what kind of nuts go on top of cakes aside.

No sure that you can seperate: 'Regional production of excellent quality mozzarella results in consumption of excellent mozzarella" from "Regional demand for consumption of excellent mozzarella induces production of excellent mozzarella". Hence, 'attitude' is of central importance. But this is spliting hairs.

[Craig Camp]

If you are a chef and you have access to fantastic mozzarella, you are not afraid to serve it sliced and by itself with a small cruet of olive oil. But if the mozz is not as special, you are looking for something like tomatoes or peppers to serve it with. So this attitude people are describing is merely an outgrowth of what the ingredients are capable of. Local disputes about what kind of nuts go on top of cakes aside.

No sure that you can seperate: 'Regional production of excellent quality mozzarella results in consumption of excellent mozzarella" from "Regional demand for consumption of excellent mozzarella induces production of excellent mozzarella". Hence, 'attitude' is of central importance. But this is spliting hairs.

Ah - but it is a good hair to split. Part of the reason regional ingredients in Italy are of such high quality is that virtually eveyone in the region is an expert who demands only the finest.

[Craig Camp]

I remember being in college and being taught a recipe for something called rasam - watery soup with tomatoes, lentils and so on - by a South Indian friend of mine. I started quartering the tomatoes and she insisted that I just squeeze them with my hands ...... it's the only way to do it, she said. You have to squeeze the tomato and get the juice all over your palms ...

Sometimes truth is in the smallest details. The way you handle the tomato will change the final texture of the dish.

[Adam Balic]

If you are a chef and you have access to fantastic mozzarella, you are not afraid to serve it sliced and by itself with a small cruet of olive oil. But if the mozz is not as special, you are looking for something like tomatoes or peppers to serve it with. So this attitude people are describing is merely an outgrowth of what the ingredients are capable of. Local disputes about what kind of nuts go on top of cakes aside.

No sure that you can seperate: 'Regional production of excellent quality mozzarella results in consumption of excellent mozzarella" from "Regional demand for consumption of excellent mozzarella induces production of excellent mozzarella". Hence, 'attitude' is of central importance. But this is spliting hairs.

Ah - but it is a good hair to split. Part of the reason regional ingredients in Italy are of such high quality is that virtually eveyone in the region is an expert who demands only the finest.

Craig - while in Italy I have eaten and seen some truely terrible ingredients. I have always wondered who normally eats this stuff as every Chiantian that I know seems to have an opinion on the 'best/proper/only' way to cook or prepare a dish. Most likely tourists.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Ah - but it is a good hair to split. Part of the reason regional ingredients in Italy are of such high quality is that virtually eveyone in the region is an expert who demands only the finest.

But if you were a restaurant in Nice, and you wanted your food to taste authentically Italian, you could go to the market in Ventimiglia and buy your ingredients there. Or you could use Italian purveyors who delivered in Nice.

Terroir travels guys. A bottle of Barolo tastes the same in Alba as it does in Cannes. So does any raw ingredient. Chefs can't hide terroir with their cooking. Either it's there or it isn't. And if it isn't there, the only possible explanation is that the source is different.

[Craig Camp]

It is interesting that on many other Italian threads there has been my talk about the importance of regionalism in Italian food culture, but in this discussion all Italians get lumped together. I have seen many examples of Italian food not tasting 'right' outside of Italy and outside its particular region within Italy (if it is a localised food type). Could it be however, that Italian food suffers outside of Italy for much the same reason that Indian, Thai, Spanish etc also suffer? Prehaps the food served outside of Italy isn't representative of the regional food served within Italy, in much the same way that the 'Cinnamon Club' in London doesn't reflect the food served in India?

Adam is correct that regional dishes in Italy often don't travel well even to other regions of Italy. It is just perhaps easier for a foreigner to notice the more dramatic difference between Ticino and Italy than the more subtle difference between Romagna and Emilia. Raw materials are one variable but the customers are another. One of the main changes that takes place in a cuisine when transported to a new market and served to foreign customers are the very expectations of the customers themselves. Any smart restaurateur or chef will go out of their way to make the food pleasing - even at the expense of authenticity.

[peterpumkino]

That is too esoteric an example. A good example is the Tuscan chef Beppe who opened up on 22nd Street. You couldn't get a more authentic Tuscan chef and his food tastes nothing like Tuscan food tastes in Italy. So the problem is not with him, or with the attitude, but with the ingredients.

Steve, if Bepe served exactly the same food that he served in Tuscany people would not go! Hence the difference.

I did agree that the ingredients DO matter but it's the attitude as well. You may think I'm 'preposterous' but it seems that Craig and IndiaGirl agree with me.

Edited April 14, 2003 by Craig Camp (log)

[peterpumkino]

Raw materials are one variable but the customers are another. One of the main changes that takes place in a cuisine when transported to a new market and served to foreign customers are the very expectations of the customers themselves. Any smart restaurateur or chef will go out of their way to make the food pleasing - even at the expense of authenticity.

Exactly my point - and one of the reasons SP's reference to Bepe's cuisine in NYC being so different. Don't forget these chefs are first and foremost businessmen - they have to be otherwise they go out of business real fast.

[Adam Balic]

That is too esoteric an example. A good example is the Tuscan chef Beppe who opened up on 22nd Street. You couldn't get a more authentic Tuscan chef and his food tastes nothing like Tuscan food tastes in Italy. So the problem is not with him, or with the attitude, but with the ingredients.

Steve, Steve, Steve. Would you get it into your head that if Bepe served exactly the same food that he served in Tuscany people would not go! Hence the difference.

I did agree that the ingredients DO matter but it's the attitude as well. You may think I'm 'preposterous' but it seems that Craig and IndiaGirl agree with me.

Peter - Tuscany is full of tourists eating 'authentic' tuscan food (Although, some of them do demand their Bistecca 'well-done' etc). I should think there would be a market for it in NY. if it were possible.

I am at this very mommet craving lampredotto. Curse the lack of authentic offal vans in Edinburgh.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steve, Steve, Steve. Would you get it into your head that if Bepe served exactly the same food that he served in Tuscany people would not go! Hence the difference

Peter - When Beppe first opened, everyone thought he would be serving authentic Tuscan food. That's what everyone wanted. But it turned out not to be the case. Even though he was trying to serve authentic food, it tasted Americanized. So while the place was very popular at the beginning, it has lost it's head of steam.

You have this strange idea that Americans don't like real Italian food. Of course they do. Many people travel to Italy just to seek out the food. It's just that you can't get the food here. And usually, attempts at serving authentic Italian food come out worse then Americanized cuisine.

Edited April 14, 2003 by Craig Camp (log)

[Adam Balic]

Ah - but it is a good hair to split. Part of the reason regional ingredients in Italy are of such high quality is that virtually eveyone in the region is an expert who demands only the finest.

But if you were a restaurant in Nice, and you wanted your food to taste authentically Italian, you could go to the market in Ventimiglia and buy your ingredients there. Or you could use Italian purveyors who delivered in Nice.

Terroir travels guys. A bottle of Barolo tastes the same in Alba as it does in Cannes. So does any raw ingredient. Chefs can't hide terroir with their cooking. Either it's there or it isn't. And if it isn't there, the only possible explanation is that the source is different.

Steve- I think that this is correct (plus being as exacting with recipes and cooking techniques etc), but as nobody does this, hence that importance of 'attitude-to-ingredients' as well as 'ingredients'.

[Craig Camp]

Craig - while in Italy I have eaten and seen some truely terrible ingredients. I have always wondered who normally eats this stuff as every Chiantian that I know seems to have an opinion on the 'best/proper/only' way to cook or prepare a dish. Most likely tourists.

Just like there are plenty of bad restaurants in Italy there are also plenty of lousy ingredients. Italy is a wonderful place but not paradise. Have you ever listened to the radio stations? Believe me every home cook in Italy is not a great cook contrary to the popular viewpoint - and their own opinion of themselves. There are many people willing to buy and eat mediocre food. The availability of bad ingredients is increasing rapidly with the rapid rise of giant supermarkets buying industrial food products is driving artisans out of business.

Bickering over how to prepare a local specialty is the birthright of every Italian and more popular than soccer.

Edited April 14, 2003 by Craig Camp (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Attitudes, schmatitudes. It's about a historical levying of taxes on products from other countries. Food distribution channels, like all other distibution channels in Europe were discreet to each country. In the music business, if you were a record shop in Nice, you couldn't buy your CD's from Sony in Italy even though they were in Milan and closer then Sony France which is in the 16th arr. in Paris. And while this is changing with the formation of the EU and there being no borders, old traditions die hard.

When I go to the U.K. and I order a steak, it's always Black Angus from Scotland. How come they don't serve Charolais or Bazas beef which is superior quality IMO. It's only a 300 mile truck ride from Rungis to London. A truck can do that easily twice a week. Or you can load a refrigerated car on Eurostar every day.

[Craig Camp]

I think that this is correct (plus being as exacting with recipes and cooking techniques etc), but as nobody does this, hence that importance of 'attitude-to-ingredients' as well as 'ingredients'.

I believe Adam is right on the mark. We are talking about cooking not duplicating a chemistry experiment.

[Tonyfinch]

Why have you all been so dismissive of the notion that it's in the imagination? Or rather in the state of mind?

Pastis does NOT taste the same in Fulham in February (or wherever Peter Mayle cites) as it does in a Provencal village at dusk.

Or rather it may chemically taste the same but YOU are not the same. Your mindset,your stress levels, your expectations, your cultural and culinary reference points are`all different. Countries SMELL different for goodness sake. They look, sound and feel different, even a few miles across borders. Therefore you are different. Therefore why should the food NOT seem to taste different according to the changes wrought in you bu your changing surroundings?

[peterpumkino]

You are so right Tony, ambiente does stand for a lot but I really feel that participants to this site (minus one) do know there stuff and can definitely tell the difference on taste alone.

That's not saying that sitting outdoors on a balmy night eating pasta and drinking a nice Barolo isn't wonderful, it is! That's the mentalita del cortile meaning you don't care about anything else! That's why Italians put up with a completely f---ed-up society!

[macrosan]

Which 'Italians' are these? The ones in the South or North? West or East? Germanic, Slavic, 'Italian' or Greek Ancestry? From the Mountains or in the plains, mainland or the islands?

This whole thread relates only to those Italians living close to Italy's international borders. That is self-evident from every post up to yours, Adam. My post refers sepecifically to Switzerland and France, but I would be happy to extend the discussion to its other two borders. I can find you a map if that helps

What about those people that were formerly part of 'Italy', but are now 'Slavic', were they joyful Italians with excellent regional food one minute, then depressed Slavs with a derivative cuisine the next?

They're self-selecting and self-defining. I guess that any "Yugoslavs" who have the "joyful Italian attitude" towards food would have a joyful Italian attitude towards food, and those that don't ... well they don't Does that help, Adam ?

[peterpumkino]

I think that we're all fixated on the border points as that is the one place where you can see the difference clearly - witness my 60 yards in Chiasso.

Having said that I do notice that RealItalian® food does start to change the further North you go into Alto Adige (or Sud Tyrol) towards the Austrian border. The pasta dish changes and the main course gets more 'Austrian' but, of course, many of the people there don't consider themselves Italian (although they don't consider themselves Austrian either - when I asked a waiter - in German, as he wouldn't speak in Italian - he said he was'nt Austrian, wasn't German, wasn't Italian but.......... 'Sud Tyrolean!).

Edited April 14, 2003 by peterpumkino (log)

[Adam Balic]

Which 'Italians' are these? The ones in the South or North? West or East? Germanic, Slavic, 'Italian' or Greek Ancestry? From the Mountains or in the plains, mainland or the islands?

This whole thread relates only to those Italians living close to Italy's international borders. That is self-evident from every post up to yours, Adam. My post refers sepecifically to Switzerland and France, but I would be happy to extend the discussion to its other two borders. I can find you a map if that helps

Bah, you and Plotnicki need to start thinking outside the box. See, I refine the question and the answers come pouring in - with no fighting either.

[macrosan]

My simple mind can only cope with one question at a time And I struggle with anything that even hints at refinement But now I understand that you are trying to engage in a meaningful and interesting discussion ... my goodness, where did that idea come from ? This is still eGullet isn't it ? ... I will engage my left brain and come up with something worthwhile ... maybe ...

[Adam Balic]

Well 'meaningful' and 'interesting' are relative terms no? Maybe we should discuss how relevant they are to the wider question of rhetoric? For example, if you are Armish then 'barn-raising' is most likely both an "interesting" and "meaningful" topic of discussion, but not everybody is Armish and this has several important implacations.......................