Wine and Cheese

[Adam Balic]

I'm sure that beachfan is correct, as I have stated something very similar to their view. What I could have said is cheese and wine don't go well together and anybody that doesn't think so just doesn't 'get' cheese, let alone wine.

I think that my taste buds must be similar to Craigs as many wines end up tasting bitter when consumed with red wine. Exceptions for me tend to be with thin slices of harder cheeses like Parmesan, Manchego and Cheddar.

Interesting how this has highlighted the difficulty in getting a concensus in these wine+cheese events. Should make for some interesting combinations on Friday.

What I am seeing here is that to choose a combination that will appeal to as many people as possible it would have to rule out many cheese choices. Many blue and white moulded cheese are out, as the make some red wines taste bitter for some people. Maybe paired with a sweeter wine it would work? Camembert with Vouvray? Salty Blue sheeps milk cheese with old Olorosso?

What about a crowd pleasing triple cream (St. Andre is standard level no?) with Moscato di Asti? No sophisticated enough? I'm quite interested in the idea of pairing Munster with an Alsacian Pinot gris, but I'm not sure if this would work? LivarotMaybe some of that sweet brown cheese from Norway, paired with a fruit wine - nah, that is going to far.

[Beachfan]

Adam, why not choose something easy that you don't like to prove your point. And then, if Wilfrid and I are invited, it won't go uneaten.

[Wilfrid]

... many wines end up tasting bitter when consumed with red wine.

How true. I wonder if we have a true difference in physiological reaction here, because if I drink red wine with Brie, the wine tastes - if anything - fruitier.

Hmm, maybe we should think about a eGullet (am I allowed to say that?) virtual tasting. Those of us interested could agree two or three cheeses, a couple of reds, and report on the flavors of wine and cheese before and after being tried together. I am not thinking of a general wine and cheese pairing experiment, just something more modest to explore the red wine question further. And I am thinking mainstream wines and cheeses. Anyone interested?

Edited April 1, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

[guajolote]

Hmm, maybe we should think about a eGullet (am I allowed to say that?) virtual tasting.  Those of us interested could agree two or three cheeses, a couple of reds, and report on the flavors of wine and cheese before and after being tried together.  I am not thinking of a general wine and cheese pairing experiment, just something more modest to explore the red wine question further.  And I am thinking mainstream wines and cheeses.  Anyone interested?

I'm up for it, great idea.

We could read Jabberwocky at the tasting

[indiagirl]

Hmm, maybe we should think about a eGullet (am I allowed to say that?) virtual tasting. Those of us interested could agree two or three cheeses, a couple of reds, and report on the flavors of wine and cheese before and after being tried together. I am not thinking of a general wine and cheese pairing experiment, just something more modest to explore the red wine question further. And I am thinking mainstream wines and cheeses. Anyone interested?

I'm in. As is my husband, and I'll try to invite a bunch of friends.

[wingding]

We 3 had this on Sunday;and what the hell,it made us pretty damn happy.Suspiro de Cabra[goat cheese fromSpain],truffle honey[italy]Pouilly Fume{Didier Dagueneau,France].

[MartyL]

Hmm, maybe we should think about a eGullet (am I allowed to say that?) virtual tasting. Those of us interested could agree two or three cheeses, a couple of reds, and report on the flavors of wine and cheese before and after being tried together. I am not thinking of a general wine and cheese pairing experiment, just something more modest to explore the red wine question further. And I am thinking mainstream wines and cheeses. Anyone interested?

I'm in too.

Shall we nominate cheeses and wines to include?

If we're looking for cheeses and wines that are widely available, I'd nominate the following:

--a fresh young soft goat cheese or an aged hard goat cheese

--Aged English Cheddar (Isle of Mull, Montgomery, Gloucester or anything similar will do)

--Brie, or any double or triple cream cheese

--Camembert, Epoisse or any runny and stinky cow's milk cheese

--Parmegianno Regiano

Wines to try along with these could include:

--A Sauvignon Blanc (from the Loire Valley or from New Zealand)

--A crisp unoaked Chablis

--A German Riesling Kabinett or Spatlese

--A soft Red Burgundy like Savigny les Beaunes, Volnay or a good regional Bourgogne (like Marechal cuvee Gravel)

--A Syrah-based wine from the Rhone valley

--A Cabernet Sauvignon-based wine, either from Bordeaux or California

[Robert Nesta Marley]

What about triple cremes and red wine?  Don't you all love the contrast?

why drink corbieres with triple cremes when you can have climens ????

what about royal tokaji & cheese? experiences anyone would like to share?

[Robert Nesta Marley]

Camembert with Vouvray? Salty Blue sheeps milk cheese with old Olorosso?

What about a crowd pleasing triple cream (St. Andre is standard level no?) with Moscato di Asti? No sophisticated enough? I'm quite interested in the idea of pairing Munster with an Alsacian Pinot gris, but I'm not sure if this would work?

i like a vouvray demi-sec with petillance paired with camembert for the same reasons i like sparkling cider. and of course champagne is classic with camembert. what you may be looking for is acidity to lift the cream. but again, the quality of the cheese is key.

don't worry about finding "old" oloroso. i recently spent $40 on a bottle of "very rare" oloroso from "older" soleras because i needed it at the last minute. i should've done some homework but i needed it in a pinch.

go with lustau, just seek out single estate productions from the almenecista line. generally speaking, i'd go for the weight of an oloroso over an amontillado for cheese.

st. andres are usually commercial productions, across the board. at least sample some pierre robert for your audience if they're beginners. but, yes, moscato d'asti is back in. screw "sophistication". coppo's moncalvina is fairly easy to find, but their petillance levels have been really inconsistent lately, so taste before you buy to be sure the bubbles aren't too huge, etc.

meunster, well....it depends what shape it's in, no? but i'd go with the richness (& residual sugar, again) of zind-humbrecht's cuvee laurence gewurztraminer more so than a pinot gris.

what about loire chenin blanc here? dry. i think i might want to play around with this idea. anyone?

[Adam Balic]

I would be happy to do the egullet cheese abd wine thing. How about I make a selection for my friday shing-ding and you chaps/chapettes can compare?

I like older Olorosso due to the rancio flavours, Lastau's almenecista fits the bill nicely, but I would wait and see what cheeses are availible first.

[britcook]

There was a saying in the wine trade, "Buy on an apple, sell on cheese". This was because an apple will bring out the deficiencies in a wine, cheese will mask them. Not all cheese/wine pairings are ideal but I'm of the "bad combinations are the exception" school.

[indiagirl]

I would be happy to do the egullet cheese abd wine thing. How about I make a selection for my friday shing-ding and you chaps/chapettes can compare?

The engineer in me screams for specific details ..... arrrgghhh.

Are we going to all drink the same wine and vintage?

Are we all going to eat the same brand of a type of cheese?

Is there a review form?

OK, I *may* be kidding on the last one.

[oraklet]

on saturday we'll have a decent, not overly sweet amarone with the cheese. there'll probably be some tricastin - served with the duck - left to experiment with. the cheese will be brie de meaux, emmenthal and gorgonzola. well, maybe i should add some parmigiano.

on the whole, i'm with wilfridand the other traditionalists - but the difference in sugar content of the two wines will, i believe, be an opportunity to make an informed judgement.

untill then, in my opinion, lustau is for tourists

[bushey]

i like a vouvray demi-sec with petillance paired with camembert

Thanks for this suggestion. I have a bottle of vouvray such as you describe and have passed it over numerous times.

[Adam Balic]

untill then, in my opinion, lustau is for tourists

Maybe, but tourists with great taste.

[Adam Balic]

OK, I have purchased my Cheese. A non-Pasteurised Scottish blue (green really,) sheeps milk cheese, "Lanark Blue". Salty, rich flavour, but not as much mould as seen in Roquefort. Most of the other cheeses I saw as potentials (triple creams, washed rinds, several styles of goat cheese etc) were not quite ripe. In addition, the authorities in the UK did their very best to shut down production of this cheese, the fact that the owners won the right to remain in production is a great thing for small food producers in the UK and I think that should be surpported.

For those that would like to compare notes with me I suggest getting Roquefort if Lanack blue is not possible. Some information on the cheese.

Lanark Blue

This site suggests a strong red, I am going to go for a rich desert wine. Maybe a fortified Muscat or a Olorosso? Possibly even some of the naturally higher alcohol desert wines? Any thoughts.

[Belmont3]

Lat night we had a great Alsatian Muenster paired with a '99 Weinbach Cuvee Laurence Gewurztraminer (Clos de Capucins Vineyard). Absolutely out of this world!!

[Adam Balic]

Now you tell me! ..................

[Belmont3]

Now you tell me! ..................

Sorry, just thought you should know what you missed out on. It is a pairing that you might consider for your next go.

[Wilfrid]

Okay, how shall we organize this? I don't think we'll get it together before Adam's tasting goes off. Indiagirl, I wonder if it's too ambitious to get exactly the same wines and cheeses - cheeses in particular tend to go in and out of stock. We could go for some generic pairings.

Let's start with Marty's list, and add Adam's Lanark Blue, which I think I've seen in New York at least. Marty, black mark, Gloucester ain't a cheddar. I also think Epoisses and Camembert are very different, as is Brie and the triple cremes:

--a fresh young soft goat cheese or an aged hard goat cheese

--Aged English Cheddar (Isle of Mull, Montgomery, Gloucester or anything similar will do)

--Brie, or any double or triple cream cheese

--Camembert, Epoisse or any runny and stinky cow's milk cheese

--Roquefort or Lanark Blue

--Parmegianno Regiano

--A Sauvignon Blanc (from the Loire Valley or from New Zealand)

--A crisp unoaked Chablis

--A German Riesling Kabinett or Spatlese

--A soft Red Burgundy like Savigny les Beaunes, Volnay or a good regional Bourgogne (like Marechal cuvee Gravel)

--A Syrah-based wine from the Rhone valley

--A Cabernet Sauvignon-based wine, either from Bordeaux or California

I don't think I'll be opening six bottles. We could shrink the list by concentrating on the allegedly more difficult cheeses. How about:

Brie

Cheddar (Keen's, Mongomery or Isle of Mull)

Epoisses (or L'Ami du Chambertin, or Soumaintrain)

Roquefort or Lanark Blue

Marty - you're the winehead. Can we shrink that list at all; I think we do want to give the whites a chance, but the main bone of contention is how the reds react.

Anyone else in? Craig?

[Adam Balic]

Could we please include a sweeter wine, nothing on this list of wines has significant amounts of residual sugar (yes, I know Spatlese blah, blah). What about a Sauternes/Port/Sherry (sweet style)/Banyuls/Australia Fortified/Maderia etc?

Epoisse - you just reminded me of my "random meeting with crazy person" for the day. Sitting in bus stop, reading something, with my Lanark Blue clutched in my hand.

Lady, mid-thirties comes up to me and said "Ah, I can smell that you have cheese".

Me: "Yes, It's Lanark Blue, a British cheese",

Her: "...." Tedious ramble about how French cheeses are far better then any other cheeses.

Me:"..." Tedious small talk.

At this point she suddenly leans over me and says, "You know, it's a pity that you cheese isn't 'Epoisse', as that smells naughty- like sex".

Me:"!?...................?......., Oh, look my bus."

[Craig Camp]

Count me in. The pain we have to endure.

[Wilfrid]

Marty or someone needs to be decisive about the wine.

[jeniac42]

I'd like to join in. It would be great if we could keep the wine costs under $40 or so. Amazingly, I can get Keen's or Montgomery Cheddar here (indeed, I have some at home right now), along with good Epoisses and Roquefort.

Last night I had the rather unfortunate (to my tastebuds) combination of the Montgomery Cheddar and a $9 Primitivo whose maker eludes me. The Parmigiano-Reggiano was much better in terms of matching. I also have a very, very mild French blue (again, I've forgotten the name) that I think wasn't properly aged, or something. It only started blueing once it was cut in the shop. Mostly it's buttery like a butterkase (which, to be honest, I know not a lot about) with a little bit of blue mold.

But that's really neither here nor there, is it? It was OK with the wine.

[Craig Camp]

The wines are easy. The cheeses are hard. I would think our members in the UK have a better selection then the USA and that they are also in better condition. Why not pick the cheeses first then select a range of wines. All the wines are available in both places.