Sour grapes can't touch beer

[LiquidBread]

It troubles me that such a complex, amazing taste experience like beer can be relegated to its present status: a beverage one drinks on the couch while watching football. The reason this troubles me is because a far less complex drink like wine is held with such esteem by western culture. Just take a look at how popular this wine forum is. Now run over to the beer forum... you'll notice a discussion on how to remove a bottle cap with a cigarette lighter. Beer deserves a place if not above wine, then along side it. Allow me to explain:

A wine's flavor is affected by the grape, the yeast, the fermenting vessel, it's age, etc.

Beer's flavor is affected by the barley, how much the barley is roasted, any other grains that can be used (wheat, rye, etc.), the hops, the yeast (top fermenting for ale, bottom for lager, or naturally occuring yeasts for a lambic), the water, the fermenting vessel, etc.

In both cases I'm oversimplifying, but simple mathematics tells us beer (with 4 ingredients at its most basic) is more complex than wine (with only 2 ingredients).

Do more ingredients make beer better? Not always, but it does make it a beverage worthy of lengthy disscussions. The reason I put this thread here is because I'm hoping some wine drinkers will give quality beer a chance and join us in the beer forum. Thanks.

[Stone]

You may want to post an opinion here.

But the simple answer is that wine is more expensive. People who have convinced each other that they have great taste want to spend money on wine because the French drank wine with their food (and the British drank beer, or bad wine). People who question this are obviously ignorant and silly.

Although I will say that I think the carbonation in beer may limit its desirability as a "pairing" for more delicate flavors, as will the high hop content of decent beers.

Edited March 22, 2003 by Stone (log)

[Florida Jim]

But the simple answer is that wine is more expensive.  People who have convinced each other that they have great taste want to spend money on wine because the French drank wine with their food (and the British drank beer, or bad wine).  People who question this are obviously ignorant and silly.

That's a pretty broad (and demeaning) brush your painting with there.

I have nothing against beer but maybe some folks just like wine better; no?

Best, Jim

[Stone]

Of course. I jest. (A little.)

Edited March 22, 2003 by Stone (log)

[carpet bagger]

Let me ramble here a bit. Why do I love wine and not give beer much credance? First, I grew up in Australia where the beer I tasted at the ripe old age of 11 years was very bitter and I had a lot of trouble even swallowing it. Sure at 16 plus years I drank it to get drunk, still hated it for taste. On arriving here in the U.S. I drank Bud and Coors most of the time getting sick and throwing up. That was my introduction. Since then I have been fortunate to drink some Thai beers and some Japanese beers at their respective restaurants and with their foods have enjoyed them a lot. For me, beers have more limits than wines and honestly I have never experimented with different beers as I have with wines. Maybe its time to try.

[Stone]

I've had a few wines that were able to demonstrate for me the "complexities" (I understand that this term is now loaded with baggage, but I'm not trying to use it that way) that I think wine people refer to. But I've also had many beers that display similar qualities -- the Belgian Browns are the simplest examples. (But run away from any place that advertises an ice-cold Chimay.) The biggest difference, of course, is price. Alcohol aside, I can have a lot more fun with $50 of beer than I can with $50 of wine.

Of course, CB, if one grew up drinking Carmel and Maneschevitz, one would probably develop an aversion to wine similar to your take on beer.

[JAZ]

First, let me say that I like both beer and wine. I used to make beer, and am familiar with the wide variety of styles.

But to make a make a blanket statement that beer is more complex than wine is just as limiting as the opposite tack of disparaging beer. Beer is complex, but that doesn't mean that wine is not. They're different. Period.

The acid level in wine makes it better suited for some foods, just as the sweet/bitter profile of beer fits well with other foods. Many foods go well with both, which is a good thing if one likes variety, as I do.

[Stone]

But to make a make a blanket statement that beer is more complex than wine is just as limiting as the opposite tack of disparaging beer.

That's not what I intended to say -- although the title of the thread suggests that LB might have intended something along those lines.

But I think the crux of LB's complaint, if that's what it is, is that beer drinkers don't prattle on at length about their beer. That could be misinterpreted as demonstrating that beer is worth of discussion. I think that would be a mistake.

[guajolote]

Another difference between beer and wine is wine is capable of improving with age, whereas beer for the most part isn't.

I suggest starting some interesting threads on beer, instead of attacking wine.

The thread about opening a beer bottle with a lighter was hilarious.

[Robert Nesta Marley]

It troubles me that such a complex, amazing taste experience like beer can be relegated to its present status:  a beverage one drinks on the couch while watching football.  The reason this troubles me is because a far less complex drink like wine is held with such esteem by western culture.  Just take a look at how popular this wine forum is.  Now run over to the beer forum... you'll notice a discussion on how to remove a bottle cap with a cigarette lighter.  Beer deserves a place if not above wine, then along side it.  Allow me to explain:

A wine's flavor is affected by the grape, the yeast, the fermenting vessel, it's age, etc. 

Beer's flavor is affected by the barley, how much the barley is roasted, any other grains that can be used (wheat, rye, etc.), the hops,  the yeast (top fermenting for ale, bottom for lager, or naturally occuring yeasts for a lambic),  the water, the fermenting vessel, etc.

In both cases I'm oversimplifying, but simple mathematics tells us beer (with 4 ingredients at its most basic) is more complex than wine (with only 2 ingredients).

Do more ingredients make beer better?  Not always, but it does make it a beverage worthy of lengthy disscussions.  The reason I put this thread here is because I'm hoping some wine drinkers will give quality beer a chance and join us in the beer forum.  Thanks.

did you have a bad day? or did one of us push you on the playground?

who *relegated* beer to monday night football? the media? than don't watch tv--this is "america"; be proactive & run a beer campaign or something.

and comments like "a far less complex drink like wine" won't win you any points here. you'd be lucky to even see much discussion on this thread, but i could be wrong.

lambics like cantillon are wine-y to the max. i suppose you don't see the complexity in their geuze?

so you're on the beer board often? that's good to know.

[Craig Camp]

It troubles me that such a complex, amazing taste experience like beer can be relegated to its present status: a beverage one drinks on the couch while watching football.

I would severely disagree with this statement. We are in fact in a ‘golden age’ for serious beer in the United States. Brew Pubs are popping up everywhere and stores and restaurants are dramatically expanding their selections of both imported and domestic micro-brews. Beer tastings, classes and comparisons have become commonplace.

The only beers I know relegated to the couch and TV are the mass produced, flavorless brands who produce all those tasteful commercials.

Most serious wine people I know are also lovers of fine beers for the same reasons they like wine – complexity.

[tommy]

robert, just recently someone else suggested that beer does in fact have more flavor components, or complexity, or some such phrase, than wine. i don't know if this is really measurable or not, but i don't think that liquid bread meant to disparage wine, although i question the motivation to post this here and not on the beer board.

Edited March 24, 2003 by tommy (log)