If the Times is Wrong

[Ron Johnson]

On another thread we have discussed the issue of both Otto and Atelier receiving 2 stars from the Times/Grimes. I am curious as to what eGullers think are the restaurants that should have 3 or 4 stars in NYC.

So give us your list. First, the restaurants that are your 4-star spots, and then a list of who gets 3 stars.

I have only dined at a handful of NYC restaurants, so I am not qualified to rank, but would love to hear what the others think. Let's see how our choices stack up with the Times.

[Varmint]

Perhaps we should use a 20 point system as used by the Guide Gault-Millau -- no Loiseau references, please. But that provides greater opportunities to distinguish between the establishments.

[rich]

I think the four-star restaurants in NYC are too numerous to list. I would need to list a four-star spot in so many categories.

A fairer question would be who has the most complete dining experience? If I was forced to choose it would be a toss-up between Le Bernardin and Aquavit.

[tommy]

Perhaps we should use a 20 point system as used by the Guide Gault-Millau -- no Loiseau references, please.  But that provides greater opportunities to distinguish between the establishments.

100 points is better. but then you end up using only 70-100 anyway.

[Ron Johnson]

Ok, instead of giving me a list of what you think the 3 and 4 star restaurants are, how about propose an alternative scoring system entirely?

Oh, you did that.

Edited February 27, 2003 by Ron Johnson (log)

[tommy]

Ok, instead of giving me a list of what you think the 3 and 4 star restaurants are, why doesn't everyone propose an alternative scoring system entirely?  

Oh, you did that. 

oh. sorry. would you like my subjective list? or perhaps the objective list.

edited for kindness.

Edited February 27, 2003 by tommy (log)

[Ron Johnson]

oh.  sorry.  would you like my subjective list?  or perhaps the objective list.

What have the experts pm'd to you?

[Suzanne F]

Numbers by themselves are meaningless. What are the criteria for ranking places? That's part of the problem with reacting to any such system: no one reveals their criteria (certainly not the Times), although possibly with careful reading the criteria could be deduced. I daresay each of us here has a different set of criteria, even different sets for different types of restaurants; some might be subjective, some objective.

I'll have to think about this seriously before I can list my criteria.

[Wilfrid]

I'll give you my tete de peloton, if that suits:

Alain Ducasse

Atelier

Jean-Georges

Daniel

Le Bernardin

(I've not yet eaten at Bouley or Nobu, which might be contenders.)

Uncontroversial, I'd have thought. Of course, one day Robert Brown will tell us what's wrong with Atelier. :checks calendar:

[tommy]

I daresay each of us here has a different set of criteria, even different sets for different types of restaurants; some might be subjective, some objective.

and that's exactly what will make this thread interesting, and, no doubt, a long thread of cyclical debate about objectivity and subjectivity, unless, of course, the 10 people who always debate this type of thing are too engrossed in the other 3 threads about objectivity/subjectivity that are motoring along quite happily as we speak, he said.

[Ron Johnson]

Thank you Wilfrid. Atelier, very interesting, now if Mr. Brown would just care to share . . .

[Wilfrid]

... that are motoring along quite happily as we speak, he said.

Yes, quite happily, thanks for caring. As, I'm sure, is the thread about kittens.

[tommy]

... that are motoring along quite happily as we speak, he said.

Yes, quite happily, thanks for caring. As, I'm sure, is the thread about kittens.

oh you clever b*astard you.

but, enough about you.

4 stars. hmm. well, my "fine dining" experience has been limited to perhaps 14 or 16 restaurants over the past few years. i don't know that i'm qualified, or interested, in labeling any with such a high mark, assuming, of course, that it don't get much better than 4 stars.

3 stars. hmm. um, places like babbo and march? le b i suppose, but their cheese service was dodgy.

2 stars. otto? i guess not. JUdson and Beacon and their ilk?

i give up. what's the right answer?

edited to increase the number of fine dining that i've done, as i don't want to come across like someone who lives in NJ

Edited February 27, 2003 by tommy (log)

[Suzanne F]

I daresay each of us here has a different set of criteria, even different sets for different types of restaurants; some might be subjective, some objective.

and that's exactly what will make this thread interesting, and, no doubt, a long thread of cyclical debate about objectivity and subjectivity, unless, of course, the 10 people who always debate this type of thing are too engrossed in the other 3 threads about objectivity/subjectivity that are motoring along quite happily as we speak, he said.

Ooops, sorry. I misread. Thought you said "cynical debate."

[Wilfrid]

8700 posts. Enough about me?

[jeunefilleparis]

RON, this is a fun topic

let's see, one of my very first meals after moving to NY was to Gotham Bar and Grill, I have been there a handful of times and have always had the most delicous, creative meals.

Estario Milos ( thank god for roomates parents with good taste) always the freshest fish, beautiful decor, wonderful star and great wine:)

Wallse in the west village is one of my favorite "hidden" places, everyone loves Danube, I have yet to go, but the Austrian at Wallse is fabulous, i love the minimalistic setting and the food was great, i was there 2 years ago and still have fond memories of my quark dumplings with sour cream sorbet for dessert

Tabla: have gone twice now, just posted recently about it, creative indian, beautiful setting, as I ve metioned, Danny Meyer is my hero:)

Aquavit: been there twice now too. last visit was extraodinary and we had fun with the Aquavit tasting menu, love the waterfall and skylights, the artic circle dessert is to die for.....

I m not sure what its rated but the food has always been excellent at Balthazar, my favorite s being the goast cheese tart with the carmalized onions, oh my god, i m so hooked on that,i wont try anything else, the sauteed skate there is incredible and the carmelized banana ricotta tart is up there on my list of to die for desserts

I ate at Nougatine when i visited NY for college and although I remember it being great, I dont remember enough of it,,,,same goes for Jo Jo s, I was there as a teenager,,,,,,

ok all this food talk is making me hungry,,, again

Lauren

[jeunefilleparis]

I m not sure if i should post this hear or start a new topic, so let me know, but, as for Le Bernadin being 4 star, I would have to disagree., I went there last summer and had the worst NY meal of my life. I spent a small fortune and was very unhappy when I left.

The service itself was atrocious, I know that I am young, but I like great food. My friend and I were appropriately dressed, but of course when we entered, we were about 30yrs younger than most of the diners.

It took forever for the waiter to take our orders. My appetizer were raw scallops that were supposed to be drizzled with extra virgin olive oil,,, insteadi t was drowning in it, there was no flavor at all. My next course, shrimp dumpings were so terrible that I sent them back. and then my lobster dish, which was an additional $20, was flavorless. the only good part was dessert

My friend and I, thoroughly disappointed and annoyed since it was not a cheap dinner, spoke to the manager, who actually had the nerve to say that we were wrong about service. He gave us a free dessert which in to way made up for the poor quality of food and service,

I was more upset that an establishment like Le Bernadin, a NY seafood legend, disappointed me so terribly.

Its safe to say that I will never go back, nor will I recommend it to anyone else

[ajay]

Jeunefilleparis,

In the future I would strongly urge you to follow up such an unpleasant experience with a letter to the management. Most restaurants of this caliber are likely to respond to such proaction. Sorry you had a bad experience.

[Bux]

If I'm lucky, I get to 3 or 4 NY restaurants that have pretensions to four stars in a year. Any list I make has to rely on hearsay and out of date visits. I had lunch at Atelier this year and will repeat my opinion that it's probably operating on a four star level. The service was acceptable for that level and all of the food that was served to our table was good enough to make any four star restaurant proud. I have to say that I expect a certain elegance and level of dining experience from a four star restaurant and that while a restaurant can't make it without four star food, the food alone will not merit four stars for the restaurant. It's also true that I expect a different kind of food from a four star restaurant and not just better food. This is hard to explain, but the other night we were having dinner with someone in the business and an opinion was put out for discussion. It was that there should be no bones on the plate in a four star restaurant. I don't completely agree, but the point was very valid. We might want the meat cooked on the bone, but the preparation after cooking should render the food elegant to eat. That may be unfair to those who like to gnaw on a bone. At anyrate, many dishes in a four star restaurant may be very labor intensive.

[Suvir Saran]

I m not sure what its rated but the food has always been excellent at Balthazar, my favorite s being the goast cheese tart with the carmalized onions, oh my god, i m so hooked on that,i wont try anything else, the sauteed skate there is incredible and the carmelized banana ricotta tart is up there on my list of to die for desserts.

I have enjoyed the goat cheese and caramelized onion tart at Balthazar a lot. It is as you say something that gets you so hooked, it is difficult to try other things.

I too love the Banana and ricotta tart. It used to be GREAT when they first opened. Sometime in the last 2 years they changed their recipe. I was sad at first. But still the tart was excellent.

Something about Balthazar is very comforting. I never tire of it.

[tigerwoman]

I m not sure what its rated but the food has always been excellent at Balthazar, my favorite s being the goast cheese tart with the carmalized onions, oh my god, i m so hooked on that,i wont try anything else, the sauteed skate there is incredible and the carmelized banana ricotta tart is up there on my list of to die for desserts.

I have enjoyed the goat cheese and caramelized onion tart at Balthazar a lot. It is as you say something that gets you so hooked, it is difficult to try other things.

I too love the Banana and ricotta tart. It used to be GREAT when they first opened. Sometime in the last 2 years they changed their recipe. I was sad at first. But still the tart was excellent.

Something about Balthazar is very comforting. I never tire of it.

We ate there at the bar last month - for the first time- and walked away happy and content. The banana tart was outstanding. The salads were execellent, especially the frisee, other dishes ranged from good to outstanding. The main bartender, Joe was personable and fun to talk to without being intrusive. Overall a good solid experience.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I daresay each of us here has a different set of criteria, even different sets for different types of restaurants; some might be subjective, some objective

Well the issue isn't our criteria, it's the Times criteria. But whatever criteria anybody uses, isn't the issue finding which restaurants are better? Do we really disagree as to what better is? Anyway the best restaurants get four stars. Isn't that simple? On Wilfrid's list, those are the best restaurants in NYC (not saying he's listed them all and I haven't been to Atelier.) But do any of these restaurants belong and why, and if not, why so?

Aquavit

Babbo

Chanterelle

Craft

Eleven Madison Park

Gotham Bar & Grill

Gramercy Tavern

Kurama Sushi

La Cote Basque

Montrachet

Nobu

Patria

Picholine

Tabla Veritas

Union Pacific

[jeunefilleparis]

I daresay each of us here has a different set of criteria, even different sets for different types of restaurants; some might be subjective, some objective

Well the issue isn't our criteria, it's the Times criteria. But whatever criteria anybody uses, isn't the issue finding which restaurants are better? Do we really disagree as to what better is? Anyway the best restaurants get four stars. Isn't that simple? On Wilfrid's list, those are the best restaurants in NYC (not saying he's listed them all and I haven't been to Atelier.) But do any of these restaurants belong and why, and if not, why so?

Aquavit

Babbo

Chanterelle

Craft

Eleven Madison Park

Gotham Bar & Grill

Gramercy Tavern

Kurama Sushi

La Cote Basque

Montrachet

Nobu

Patria

Picholine

Tabla Veritas

Union Pacific

I had dinner at Patria about a year and a half ago. THough I found most of the meal enjoyable, I found the prices way too high. I ate at Passion a year ago for my birthday and found the food there to be of a higher quality with more reasonable prices. Also, I found the setting there a bit stuffy at Patria.

I ll give them one thing,,,, they have these cheese rolls that are deadly. They are rich and delicious and sit like rocks in the stomache.

also, the Patria Colada is amazing....

I had a better meal at CHicama, that was absolutely delicous. My friend and I tried a variety of seviche, inclduing a watermelon infused fish, ( dont recall which one exactly) My main course was a tuna with a yuca potato mash and greens,it was all icredible. the desssert, tres leches and mini donuts in different sauces, chocolate and dulce du leche, were great!

[jhlurie]

A few questions for Ron. First of all, do you mean "fine dining" establishments, or does your desired version of "the best" recognize that something can be the absolute best of its type but not measurable on the same scale as a fine dining experience? In this vision, is there such a thing as a four star hamburger, which exists on a different plane, or is everything absolute?

BTW: I'd like Ron's take on this FIRST to gauge his intentions with this question. I already know that the Plotnickis and tommys of the world will be on opposite sides of this.

Similarly, Ron, do you envision all aspects of a restaurant to be included within a single rating, or is the gauge you desire only for the absolute quality of the food?

EDIT - Ron, because this whole discussion seems to be veering from your intention about discussing actual restaurants that are the best in New York, I've created another thread about the actual mechanics of restaurant rating. I, of course, give you full credit.

Edited March 1, 2003 by jhlurie (log)

[Bux]

I've been to almost all of the restaurants on Steve's list, but not necessarily recently enough to offer a valid opinion of their current place. Off hand I'd say a few of those places come close, but even those with the best marks for food and service, just miss four stars.