Sauce gelling agent with best mouthfeel

[Martin Baadsgaard]

Hey guys. I have been looking at some of the modern gelling agents to see if anything would give me anything in terms of thickening sauces and condiments.

I tried xanthan and Guar gum and found that they were quite sticky in mouthfeel.

What would be a good next try if I am going for a creamy and not so slimy sticky kind of thickener?

[Martin Fisher]

Really depends on what, exactly, you're trying to achieve....

 

See here... http://www.chefsteps.com/forum/posts/thickening-sauces-especially-gravy-without-starch.....-9

 

There are a lot of direction you can go....I ended up using a little bit of Wondra flour along with other stuff to achieve the result I was looking for.

 

There's also the Jus Gras option featuring lecithin... http://modernistcuisine.com/recipes/simplified-jus-gras/

Edited January 15, 2015 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[Martin Baadsgaard]

I think we have been hunting the same thing! Difference is just I'm trying to improve over cornstarch and you have a dietary reason.

So you tried alot of things? Did carrageenan work texture-wise?

I tried fluid gel, but that is more like ketchup to me..

Edited January 15, 2015 by Martin Baadsgaard (log)

[Martin Fisher]

Unfortunately, it's difficult to replace starch if that's the type of texture you're used to.

Considering that, in my case, I sought balance with other stuff that was low-carb without changing the texture significantly.

In other words, achieving the texture you personally seek is going to require trial and error.

[Martin Baadsgaard]

Yea I was expecting that, but shipping is almost twice as much as the powders so I'm trying to be selective.

I guess I want something smooth and thick, syrupy even..

How was the texture of the carrageenan? I'm thinking of trying that or konjac

[pbear]

It would be easier to help if you give a few examples of the sauces you're trying to thicken.

[pbear]

BTW, I assume you have Martin Lersch's recipe collection, Texture, as it's pretty well known.  If not, you definitely want it.  Free download in pdf format.

[Martin Baadsgaard]

I have the Textures PDF and looked through it, trying to deduce what would be a good choice.

Sauces could be demiglace, red wine reduction and the like. They are naturally syrupy but I'd love to enhance this (personal taste thing, maybe). Otherwise I was looking around for thickeners that would give a soft and smooth gel like pectin but without sugar and acid.

[Martin Fisher]

Yes, I've worked with iota carrageenan, but I can't tell you if it'll the texture that you personally seek.

I've also worked with the Konjac, which works quite well but the quality of it can definitely vary from source to source...the poorer quality stuff has an awful flavor.

 

What's most important when working with hydrocolloids is that you use a VERY GOOD immersion blender (or the like) for proper dispersion and hydration with a minimum of ingredient. That was one of the problems that I was initially having.

[Martin Baadsgaard]

Alright, I wrote a reseller about it, he suggested either kappa carrageenan or guar gum.

It seems that if it will settle to a brittle gel, it will, in lower concentrations, give a more flowy and less sticky thickening.

 

I might try myself at that. Konjac looks nice but still kind of slimy, like wallpaper paste (judging from videos).

[Martin Fisher]

I didn't find the Konjac slimy when a tiny amount is used and it's dispersed and hydrated really well.

 

The iota carrageenan thickened well at 0.03% to 0.04% if I remember correctly.

[Martin Baadsgaard]

Alright. I'm gonna try konjac and kappa carrageenan then :-) thanks

[paulraphael]

I've been experimenting with this a lot, and hoping to have enough information for a blog post on it soon. 

 

For a demiglace equivalent, which will presumably have a healthy concentration of natural gelatin already, I'm using

0.2% lambda carrageenan 

0.1% xanthan gum

 

These both hydrate cold, with shear from any blender.

 

It's important that you don't thicken until you've thoroughly defatted. Both these hydrocolloids are powerful emulsion stabilizers, and you will get a cloudy, oily emulsion that will never separate if you don't defat first. 

 

Also important that you don't use this in a sauce that contains dairy. Calcium ions with cause it to form a gel. 

 

I'm also experimenting with:

1:1 guar : LBG

3:1 lambda carrageenan : xanthan

propylene glycol alginate

 

 

For adjusting thickness of final sauces, the most popular choices are modified starches that are pre-hydrated, like ultrasperse and ultratex. These dissolve easily and don't need cooking to hydrate.

 

I prefer the clarity and texture of a starch / gum blend, typically

1:10 xanthan : arrowroot 

 

If you mix them together thoroughly as powders, you'll be able to make a slurry without the xanthan turning to clumps. This can be whisked into a sauce, and only needs to be simmered briefly to hydrate the arrowroot. 

 

This starch / gum blend has the advantage over the previous gum blend that it doesn't need blending, so you can adjust by feel right on the stovetop. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by paulraphael (log)

[paulraphael]

Also, some people use fluid gels for this kind of application. I haven't tried because I don't like the workflow, but you may find them worth playing with.

[Martin Baadsgaard]

Ah, interesting! Problem is just that I have not been able to find a supplier og lambda carrageenan in Europe.

I wrote a British reseller about it and was told that kappa does the exact same in a low enough concentration and that lambda is low quality..

[paulraphael]

Strange that it's not available. I don't understand him saying lambda is "low quality," unless he means he doesn't have a high quality source. It's just a slightly different carrageenan molecule, and it does have somewhat different characteristics. 

 

Lambda solutions are clear vs. cloudy, they hydrate cold vs. >70C, and they don't form gels (kappa forms brittle gels).

 

Heston and Ferran have to get it from somewhere!

Edited January 15, 2015 by paulraphael (log)

[Martin Baadsgaard]

Well sometimes this stuff is easier to get as a company than as a private person

I came across somewhere where it said that lambda is usually a mixture of lambda and kappa. They generally don't go through the trouble of making a pure grade of it.

 

I kind of just want to order from http://www.modernistpantry.com/

But that would be $10 for a bag and then $10 shipping, or $20 for 2 bags, $12 shipping and then $25 for danish postal service handling fees (!) because it surpases the "trivial value amount".

So no matter what, it would be a lot of money spent on just moving it.

[paulraphael]

Have you tried calling companies that supply it to manufacturers? They typically only sell in bulk, but they're generous with samples. And sample size is often 500g ... huge. I've done most of my experimenting with samples from TIC gums and CP Kelco. The only trouble is that if I do run out some day, it may be impractical to actually buy the stuff.