Oxtail sous-vide - best times and temperatures

[pep.]

I've got a few kilograms of freerange organic oxtail in the freezer. Should I do it at steak tempatures (55 °C) or more braise-like? (60+ °C)? Has anyone experimented with sous-vide oxtail? What were your best results?

[FeChef]

My best results were 160F for 24-30 hours. Made a killer open faced pot roast with it. Also, over top extra wide egg noodles for a really good stroganoff.

[paulraphael]

I'm curious if anyone's had it cooked like a steak. Never heard of that ... could be interesting. I think my first attempt would be as at braising temps.

[nickrey]

A friend did some for a meal recently he experimented with various temperatures and times as suggested by me and other sources. After an attempt at lower temperatures (57C, 135F) in which the meat didn't cook properly at all, he moved to my suggestion of 72C (162F). He tried a piece after 24 hours and found it too chewy. After 48 hours, the texture was just right. This fits with FeChef's time and temperature profile.

[pep.]

A friend did some for a meal recently he experimented with various temperatures and times as suggested by me and other sources. After an attempt at lower temperatures (57C, 135F) in which the meat didn't cook properly at all, he moved to my suggestion of 72C (162F). He tried a piece after 24 hours and found it too chewy. After 48 hours, the texture was just right. This fits with FeChef's time and temperature profile.

 

For lower temperatures, I would have estimated the cooking time more in the 72-100 hours range. (I've done beef shank at 54,5 °C for 72 hours and while the flavor is not for the faint of heart (a lot more beefy than the more tender muscles), texture eventually does get steak like.)

[FeChef]

For lower temperatures, I would have estimated the cooking time more in the 72-100 hours range. (I've done beef shank at 54,5 °C for 72 hours and while the flavor is not for the faint of heart (a lot more beefy than the more tender muscles), texture eventually does get steak like.)

I have to disagree with you on the "steak like texture" 72-100 hours your eating pink/redish saw dust mush. I wont ever go more then 36 hours even on the toughest of cuts for this exact reason.

[btbyrd]

I have to disagree with you on the "steak like texture" 72-100 hours your eating pink/redish saw dust mush. I wont ever go more then 36 hours even on the toughest of cuts for this exact reason.

 

That's a strange sentiment given that 72 hour short ribs are one of the hallmark achievements of low temp cooking. My 3 day cooks of short ribs and beef/pork cheeks have been delicious. Likewise with my 48 and 56 hour pork belly/shoulder cooks.

Edited August 10, 2014 by btbyrd (log)

[FeChef]

That's a strange sentiment given that 72 hour short ribs are one of the hallmark achievements of low temp cooking. My 3 day cooks of short ribs and beef/pork cheeks have been delicious. Likewise with my 48 and 56 hour pork belly/shoulder cooks.

I suppose we have a different opinion of what "delicious" taste like.

 

Pork butts at 145F for 24-30 hours is the most juicy, tender "sliceable" pork roast. Pork butts at 155F for 33 hours is the most juicy tender "pulled" pork ive ever had. Shreds easy and does not have a mushy texture. I can not imagine how mushy 56 hours would do to a pork butt.

[paulraphael]

I have to disagree with you on the "steak like texture" 72-100 hours your eating pink/redish saw dust mush. I wont ever go more then 36 hours even on the toughest of cuts for this exact reason.

 

72 hour short ribs are the most amazing I've ever had. 48 hour chuck can be amazing. Not a hint of mush or "saw dust" with either, if the temps are right.

 

The MC books suggest 100 hours at 60°C for oxtail. But for a traditional braised texture, they suggest 70°C for 24 hours, which is practically the same as your time/temp.

[FeChef]

72 hour short ribs are the most amazing I've ever had. 48 hour chuck can be amazing. Not a hint of mush or "saw dust" with either, if the temps are right.

 

The MC books suggest 100 hours at 60°C for oxtail. But for a traditional braised texture, they suggest 70°C for 24 hours, which is practically the same as your time/temp.

Ive only had bad results with boneless short ribs. 48 hours @ 136.5F the short rib was pink but dry. I practically choked trying to swallow a bite. It was chaulky mouth feel. Its hard to describe. Ive never experienced such a thing before. I have made lots of cuts of beef before this and never had a problem. I suppose my source/s for short ribs may be alot different from you and others that seem to have success with long low temp cook times but i have not. To this day i have still not been pleased with short ribs at various times/temps.

 

I am using wet aged vac packed choice boneless short ribs $9.95/lb. If you are using "prime grade" then it would not be worth it to me when i can buy alot cheaper cuts with better results.

 

Oxtail, beef shank, and beef tounge turn out way better at 1/2 the cost of short ribs. I do not understand the hype to be honest.

 

/rant

[takadi]

Just coincidentally I ran into this link. 

 

http://www.chefsteps.com/activities/short-ribs-time-and-temp

[lesliec]

That's a nice article, Takadi.  Thanks.

 

My magic spot for short ribs is 60.5°C/140°F.  I thought I was happy with 48 hours at that temperature, until I tried leaving them an extra day for a total of 72.  Amazing!  But now I see I'm going to have to go through the ChefSteps options in detail to try the other textural possibilities.

 

FeChef, I'm sorry your experiences haven't lived up to the hype.  Here, short ribs haven't been 'discovered' yet so are still pretty cheap.  Here's a thing, though; you talk about boneless ribs, but my experience, and I think that of the Chefsteps people, is bone-in.  I'm not sure how that might affect the results to the degree you describe, but maybe track down some more ribs complete with bone and give them another try.  It really is worth it when they come out as they should.

[EnriqueB]

I've done MC's oxtails 100 hours at 60ºC many times and love the result, which as expected is very different from a traditional stew.

Edited August 11, 2014 by EnriqueB (log)

[paulraphael]

Ive only had bad results with boneless short ribs. 48 hours @ 136.5F the short rib was pink but dry. I practically choked trying to swallow a bite. It was chaulky mouth feel. Its hard to describe. Ive never experienced such a thing before. I have made lots of cuts of beef before this and never had a problem. I suppose my source/s for short ribs may be alot different from you and others that seem to have success with long low temp cook times but i have not. To this day i have still not been pleased with short ribs at various times/temps.

 

I am using wet aged vac packed choice boneless short ribs $9.95/lb. If you are using "prime grade" then it would not be worth it to me when i can buy alot cheaper cuts with better results.

 

Oxtail, beef shank, and beef tounge turn out way better at 1/2 the cost of short ribs. I do not understand the hype to be honest.

 

/rant

That temperature is too low for 48 hours. And 48 hours is too short even at 140°F. You're wildly overgeneralizing from your bad results. All you can conclude is that 48 hours at 136.5 gives lousy results. Which most of us could have told you to expect.

 

If you try it at the times / temps people are suggesting here, you will not get the lousy results you describe. Not unless you're doing something wrong that's completely unrelated. Prime grade short ribs are not required (I've never used these). Supermarket short ribs have a ton of marbling and work fine.

 

You may decide prefer a more conventional braised texture (from cooking higher / shorter) but there's nothing dry, chalky, or unchewable about well executed 72-hour short ribs.

[lordratner]

I am using wet aged vac packed choice boneless short ribs $9.95/lb. If you are using "prime grade" then it would not be worth it to me when i can buy alot cheaper cuts with better results.

/rant

I asked if you were using boneless in another thread, but I'll respond here.

In my experience, boneless short ribs are not what you think they are. Rather than use the same meat that is attached to the rib, it is a muscle just above the rib meat, and though it looks the same, the results are dramatically different, as you discovered.

Use bone-in short rib and you'll find the droids you were looking for.

[FeChef]

I asked if you were using boneless in another thread, but I'll respond here.

In my experience, boneless short ribs are not what you think they are. Rather than use the same meat that is attached to the rib, it is a muscle just above the rib meat, and though it looks the same, the results are dramatically different, as you discovered.

Use bone-in short rib and you'll find the droids you were looking for.

I have never considered this. The reason i went with boneless was because all the bone in i could find had less then an inch of meat on them. The boneless were almost 2 inch by 2 inch by 4 inch.

 

Is there any tell tale signs that your buying faux short ribs?

[lordratner]

I have never considered this. The reason i went with boneless was because all the bone in i could find had less then an inch of meat on them. The boneless were almost 2 inch by 2 inch by 4 inch.

Is there any tell tale signs that your buying faux short ribs?

Sadly the easiest way to tell is when they come out terrible, as you and I have experienced. Finding thick bone in short ribs can be a chore, but it's worth it. I'm sure someone with more butchery experience can help with identifying the various cuts. I was super excited to find a huge cut of boneless short rib only to be shocked by how dry and overcooked the finished product was. Going back to bone-in solved everything

[FeChef]

Sadly the easiest way to tell is when they come out terrible, as you and I have experienced. Finding thick bone in short ribs can be a chore, but it's worth it. I'm sure someone with more butchery experience can help with identifying the various cuts. I was super excited to find a huge cut of boneless short rib only to be shocked by how dry and overcooked the finished product was. Going back to bone-in solved everything

This is interesting. I have been buying "beef back ribs" for $2.58/lb and smoking them till they reach 155F and then going into the sous vide for 24 hours @ 155F. They have been turning out amazing. I even thought to myself i could cut the meat off the bones and skip the smoking part and it would make for amazing steak. Its just that only about 4 bones in the whole rack have a decent amount of meat on them to justify removing the bones.

[slkinsey]

FeChef, if you have any interest in exploring the unique effects of LT/LT sous vide techniques, you would be well-advised to heed paulraphael's advice.  It's not just time and it's not just temperature, it's time at temperature.  And, of course, it also depends on the properties and quality of the meat you're cooking.  Boneless short ribs are the real thing where I buy them, but apparently this is may be an issue in your neck of the woods.  So get some meaty bone-in short ribs and try them for 72 hours at 55C/131F.  You may not care for the result, which is a completely novel taste/texture unachievable by other means, but it most certainly won't be dry and chalky.  Overall, I find a lot of your temperatures on the high side for the length of time you are cooking.  I'm a bit surprised you don't find your barbecue beef ribs a little dry after 24 hours at 68C/155F.  I would be much more likely to go 12 hours at 70C or a lot more hours at 60C.

Edited August 12, 2014 by slkinsey (log)

[FeChef]

FeChef, if you have any interest in exploring the unique effects of LT/LT sous vide techniques, you would be well-advised to heed paulraphael's advice.  It's not just time and it's not just temperature, it's time at temperature.  And, of course, it also depends on the properties and quality of the meat you're cooking.  Boneless short ribs are the real thing where I buy them, but apparently this is may be an issue in your neck of the woods.  So get some meaty bone-in short ribs and try them for 72 hours at 55C/131F.  You may not care for the result, which is a completely novel taste/texture unachievable by other means, but it most certainly won't be dry and chalky.  Overall, I find a lot of your temperatures on the high side for the length of time you are cooking.  I'm a bit surprised you don't find your barbecue beef ribs a little dry after 24 hours at 68C/155F.  I would be much more likely to go 12 hours at 70C or a lot more hours at 60C.

Dry? Not at all.

[pep.]

I've done MC's oxtails 100 hours at 60ºC many times and love the result, which as expected is very different from a traditional stew.

 

That's what I wanted to know. How do you serve it? Have you got a photo maybe?

[EnriqueB]

That's what I wanted to know. How do you serve it? Have you got a photo maybe?

 

If I am not glazing it I usually finish it by frying the sections, and serving with some vegetables on the side. I have some pictures here but they are pretty bad.

 

I often break it into little pieces by hand, discard the bone, and glaze it with a heavily reduced beef stock. Serve over Heston Blumenthal's potato puree, like in this picture I posted on twitter.

 

Or over rice, as shown in this other picture from my blog, which shows that it is far from dry even after 100 hours in the bath.

[pep.]

If I am not glazing it I usually finish it by frying the sections, and serving with some vegetables on the side. I have some pictures here but they are pretty bad.

 

I often break it into little pieces by hand, discard the bone, and glaze it with a heavily reduced beef stock. Serve over Heston Blumenthal's potato puree, like in this picture I posted on twitter.

 

Or over rice, as shown in this other picture from my blog, which shows that it is far from dry even after 100 hours in the bath.

 

Thanks! Presentation-wise, I like the fried slice the best. However, my slices are pretty thick, so one would be a bit much for a single serving. I guess I'll do the glazing then (I'll have to search the freezer, I think there is some MC red wine glaze in there somewhere

[rotuts]

Im wondering is EB is getting the same type of 'Tail' most of us get.

 

commercial OT here is from fairly young beef.  perhaps a year to a year and a 1/2 ?

 

the beef that's in most supermarket cases, just the tail.

 

maybe EB is getting real 'Ox" or even 'Toro'  ( not the fish ! )

 

unless you know a very old Ox about to drop dead, youre getting Young Tail.

 

[pep.]

Im wondering is EB is getting the same type of 'Tail' most of us get.

 

commercial OT here is from fairly young beef.  perhaps a year to a year and a 1/2 ?

 

the beef that's in most supermarket cases, just the tail.

 

maybe EB is getting real 'Ox" or even 'Toro'  ( not the fish ! )

 

unless you know a very old Ox about to drop dead, youre getting Young Tail.

 

 

My oxtail is this one: http://www.porcella.at/shop/ochsenschlepp-vom-waldviertler-blondvieh/ ( Waldviertler Blondvieh is an old cattle breed from around here). The cows are slaughtered at 24 months or older (probably not that much older, though, for the obvious economic reasons).