Stand Mixers 2002 – 2011

nightscotsman · July 27, 2003

At the French Pastry School we are using 5 quart KitchenAids everything but large batches of bread dough (for which we have a smallish Hobart). However, on Friday they took away our 5 quarts and replaced them with brand-new 6 quart machines. It seems that KitchenAid is planning on making some changes to the model - mostly involving the motor - and needed to place them in a test kitchen to get feedback before finalizing the details. We haven't used them yet, so I can't say if they are better or worse, but I'll try to post more info this week.

Jason Perlow · July 27, 2003

I did look around ebay, but having never ordered anything off the internet, AND not wanting to get shafted, I'm nervous about that. Should I not be? Hobarts in the mail? Scary.

As long as the seller has a good rating there's little to worry about.

mckayinutah · July 27, 2003

Elyse

I have worked in many places , having used everything from 5 quart up to 140 quart mixers . I think the 12 quart, at least in my opinion, should be sufficient, especially if it is brand new. But this will depend on the size of batches you plan on doing of cookies , breads, etc...

I am a fan of getting new equipment, as you may or may not know the history of used equipment. I have had every single 20 quart Hobart mixer I have worked with(except my present one) break down on me, which is about 5-6 times ( sometimes 2 or 3 times each).

If you feel the Fleetwood ( I don't know much about that brand unfortunatley) is going to be the right size for you ( I would think you could make cookie batters that would yield anywhere from 70 -80 2" cookies), I would get it. You though could always take Chad's advice and look around for a good price on a new 6 quart KitchenAid ( $350-$360 for one is what I have seen as well), which would enable you to have a smaller bowl for smaller things, although I wouldn't know about doing more then 2 or 3 loaves of bread in that size bowl. ( I presently have a 5 quart Kitchen Aid at where I work and it hasn't given me any problems, but I wouldn't even try to do bread in it, but the 6 quart is in fact more of a workhorse than the 5 quart).

In conclusion, I would say to evaluate the amount and sizes of the things you want to do and then see if a 12 quart would be more time efficient than a smaller mixer.

Good Luck

McKay

Steve Klc · July 27, 2003

OK Elyse--now that we know where you are--are you prepared to talk about things like small business loans, zoning, insurance, sanitary inspections and a business plan yet? If yes, then consider a 12 to 20 Hobart, used or new, and how that fits into your business plan.

If you are not--and I suspect you are not--then just buy a Kitchenaid K5A--the 5 quart older style as opposed to the "newer" style 6 quart model. It can ease you into small batches of cakes, cookies, doughs, etc. Those models really do last a long time and would be the perfect next step up for someone in your position--I frankly don't know how any interested amateur does without one. You can get one new for under 300 bucks at Price Club. We've talked about models before on eGullet and in my experience the newer 6 quart Kitchenaids suck--motor sucks, wider more shallow bowl sucks. I'll stop using that word now. One year we were forced to use the new K-ad 6 quart model during the National Pastry Championships--and we couldn't bring our own 5 quart models and bowls as backup. Of course we get there and all the extra 6 quart bowls promised to us didn't arrive. Just another little way we were screwed. That's beside the point, though--so we were given the 6 quart models to take home and we put it through its paces. Terrible planetary action vs. width of the bowl, awfully slow calibration when it came to changing speeds vs. the older 5 quart models, very frustrating. It's no surprise Scot K-aid is supposedly introducing an improved model. But one or two extra mixing bowls and you'll be surprised at the kind of speed and efficiency you can get right out of the box as you step gingerly toward this new career option.

By the way, in case you can't tell, I'm seriously urging you to examine the legal and business issues before you spend too much money (and perhaps you already have.) It is very important that you protect yourself and your family before you get in too deep.

Now, what I've said kind of applies to a general part-time baker. If you are going into bread production in any semi-serious way you will have greater needs than what a 5 quart Kitchenaid can handle. There are actually standmixer alternatives that the bread guys seem to like more so than the Kitchenaids. So if you are mainly bread--let us know; if you're mainly mixed use and are starting slowly and gingerly, I think a new Kitchenaid K5A will get you off to a great start. Until you hear some glowing reports of the 6 quart Kitchenaid from some really good pastry chefs not sponsored by Kitchenaid, I'd stay away from them.

Wendy DeBord · July 27, 2003

I couldn't live with-out a 20qt and make a go of it. I find that a huge handicap.

Becoming profitable with baked goods depends upon volume. Even more so if your selling out doors with-out coolers. If you can turn this into a nice little business you'll imediately need to up size your mixer. To my way of thinking I'd rather not buy something now that I'll need to replace shortly.

If you don't have a larger mixer and a freezer to hold product, that means you have to do more last minute baking. It makes it that much harder on yourself to be successful.

If I was just desperate and I couldn't get a 20qt I'd have to have two kitchen aids......less then that, I'm a brat I couldn't do it. Skip the pro-line model it's way too much (imo) I'd get 2- 5 or 6 qt reg. kitchen aids for the price.

AND a 20qt doesn't require 20qt.s of ingredients in it, you can still mix a small batch in that, but you can't mix a bigger batch in a smaller mixer.

Steve Klc · July 27, 2003

Again, not really. There are many 20 quarts out there being underutilized. Large mixers not used to capacity are 1) a waste of money better spent elsewhere, 2) undersized recipes in over-sized mixers don't give you good end results in many many things and 3) aren't actually time savers. You have to stop and scrape down the walls much more often to help them along, you have to wait longer for airy things to rise like meringues and pate a bombes and your staff will be much more tempted to lift up the bowl to bring it closer to the whip--which is awful on so many levels--safety and reducing the life of the machine being the two main ones. You wonder why these Hobarts break down? That's why--and also the larger Hobarts aren't designed to shift speeds like the smaller K-aids. This isn't news to anyone, but you're really supposed to stop the machine, say, before switching down from 3 to 2--so stop, switch to 2, start again. In reality very few kitchens work like this. Hence repair calls. You can switch the K-aid speeds at will and on the fly.

That said, if your business plan--and your commitment level-- has budgeted for that kind of volume, by all means, go large. But whether you're baking out of your home kitchen and selling stuff at a table at your daughter's PTA bake sale or in a semi-professional attempt at a farmer's market you'll still need a 5 quart and you don't have one. It still makes the most sense to start there.

Michael Laiskonis · July 27, 2003

Until you hear some glowing reports of the 6 quart Kitchenaid from some really good pastry chefs not sponsored by Kitchenaid, I'd stay away from them.

Even as someone who is about to receive another comped KA product soon, I will offer a few of my criticisms...

While I haven't yet burned out any motors on the newer models, I do find with repeated heavy use (small batches of pasta dough, and even thick nougats and marshmallow), some of the structural connections have a tendency to loosen up and wobble around a bit. Also, I've seen slippage with the attachment arm, which has required adustments so that the whip or paddle doesn't scrape the bowl too badly.

I am also not a huge fan of the burnished metal attachments- I've seen doughs turn a nasty gray when not cared for properly. And with the wider bowl came that wider, flared out whip attachment... I'm glad that I just happened to save a narrow whip from one of the older 5 qt. models. It fits the new machine, and I use it when doing an italian meringue or pâte a bombe, as the wider whip tends to throw the stream of sugar syrup everywhere but into the eggs!

Oh, and they sure are loud...

Michael Laiskonis · July 27, 2003

There are many 20 quarts out there being underutilized.

I wouldn't say my operation is exactly typical, but it is anything but production oriented. The KitchenAids are our workhorses. I think my Hobart gets the most use as a meat grinder!

beans · July 27, 2003

But one or two extra mixing bowls and you'll be surprised at the kind of speed and efficiency you can get right out of the box as you step gingerly toward this new career option.

Indeed! When I'm baking like a fiend during the holidays (no less than 4 dozen of 8-10 types of ambitious holiday cookies, among other things) I have found additional mixer bowls to be the saving grace of my sanity.

:sad: Yes, I have noticed the loosing up and slightly wobbly nature of my poor KA.

elyse · July 27, 2003

First off, does anyone know anything about the aforementioned Fleetwood? Should I take from the lack of discussion on it to stay away?

Steve - I suck at business which is why I have avoided it for 20 years. This opportunity has arrisen, and I'm taking it. The kitchen has been inspected, I've got four vulcan ovens which work pretty well. They hold two full sheets each. Two double sinks, no washer.

As far as zoning goes, we're not allowed to sell in the town where I'm baking, but can in Bloomfield where I've been for the past two Thursdays. No loans will be involved. I haven't spent more than $100 so far, but would if I were to buy this mixer which I need by Tuesday.

I bake cookies to get the name of the nuns out (baking in a convent) so funds will be raised, and split the money coming from that. We haven't decided on what my cut is. Or should I say their cut? I also bake my own things there to sell. I keep that money. I don't pay rent or utilities, and we split supplies. The kitchen is insured, I am not. I have to sign something to that effect one of these days. I will make sure there's a clause in there where if I point out a problem and it's not taken care of and I get hurt because of it, they are responsible.

I'm planning on having two different kinds of breads a week, last week I mixed/kneeded them by hand. I've been doing five or six different kinds of cookies a week, by hand. I would like to do more and extra. I'm not doing anything beautiful like baguettes, just anadama and cuban bread, baked on sheet pans. We're not set up for fabulous crusty breads. I maybe did...116 2 lb loaves? Maybe less.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions, questions, and encouragement so far!

kitwilliams · July 27, 2003

Elyse:

I really lucked out on ebay and found a 12-qt Hobart for $500. And the seller lived locally so there was no shipping involved and we met at a gas station and swapped Hobart for cash -- I felt like I was involved in a drug deal! Best $500 I've ever spent. It is terrific for multiplying recipes up and doing big batches (well, big as compared to a KitchenAid) but, as many on this thread have mentioned, you'll need that 5 or 6 quart KitchenAid as well. Any chance the nuns would help subsidize the purchase? Anyway, if you do look on ebay, look for sellers in your neck of the woods (there should be plenty).

By the way, my Hobart sounds and works like a dream and it has to be at least 25 years old.

elyse · July 27, 2003

You are so lucky!

bripastryguy · July 28, 2003

Elyse,

I have always considered one my right arm (5 qt KA) and the other my left arm (20 qt. Hobart w/ 12 qt. reducer bowl). So I feel I have the best of both worlds. I have been using my pro 5 qt KA for about 5 years, very heavily the last 2 years. The only thing that happened was I lost the shiny piece on top that says Kitchen Aid. Works great. I have heard so much about the 6 qts and was admiring from a far, but I think I'll stay away (after the opinions I 've heard). My 20 qt I got a few months ago from an auctioner for $1250, came with ss bowl, whip, paddle and hook. I went on ebau and found a 12 qt aluminum bowl with a paddle for 50 bucks...great deal (fdont use it for items you want to stay white, the aluminum grays it all) and I found a 12 qt whip cheap. I use all 3 at my shop and will hold out before I go bigger ($ and wattage).

What are you comfortable with? Are there any auctions by you? What have you worked with in the past?

Wendy DeBord · July 28, 2003

I'm starting to understand what your doing Elyse and I have to say it sounds like your really thinking things thru and are off to a better start then many who enter the professional baking business. I'm excited for you!

O.k. worse comes to worse and you can't afford a bigger mixer, we can definately help you with what items will work best with less equipment or a smaller mixer. I think that the real answer is-working smart with what you have....which you already seem to be doing.

I guess I come back to asking you what your real exact intentions are for your new mixer? (I hope I didn't miss reading that in an earilier post) I'm guessing it won't increase your batch size (with a KA) only your speed?

Rachel Perlow · July 28, 2003

Sounds like this is what Elyse needs. I remember when I was shopping for my KitchenAid, the demonstrator at Fortunoff disuaded me from buying this model because the extra power and circuit breaker reset was useful for those kneading large quantities of bread dough. If I wasn't doing that, I didn't need to spend the extra $ and the 325 watt would suit my needs. So that's what I got. Sounds like you need the 350 watt pro model. And at least 3 or 4 bowls.

Edited to disable link...

Steve Klc · July 28, 2003

OK, we're getting closer Elyse--so it seems like you have a handshake agreement right now but nothing firm down on paper as far as the financial relationship you will have with this kitchen. This can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings down the road. You sense this so make ironing this out your next priority BEFORE you spend very much money on equipment. Do not rush into this with some self-imposed deadline of Tuesday. You don't need anything by Tuesday. if it is worth doing it is worth doing right and protecting both yourself and the nuns. I'm also especially concerned about the splitting of ingredients cost--that can get very tough to quantify. You might want to maintain your own stock--you buy everything--you have a separate possibly locked storage cart/shelf and don't use anything the church or the nuns use for whatever else goes on in the kitchen--then determine what the nuns share of your "profit" is on that part of your production that is not wholly your own.

You have to assign the value of your time and efforts and the nuns have to agree--in writing. It isn't just the making it is the transporting and the packaging and the selling.

So at this point, buy the 5 qt Kitchenaid K5A for yourself, pay for it, bring it to the kitchen but plan to keep it if the deal goes sour. Work out your written agreement--trying to protect you I'd suggest that the church purchase the 12/20 quart Hobart with their share of the profit--meaning your first kickbacks to them goes straight toward the Hobart--and then the Hobart becomes the property and responsibility of the kitchen.

I'd ask yourself--what happens if anything goes wrong in the kitchen? Whose responsility is it to fix it? This should be in writing. Whose responsibility is it to clean the kitchen? Will anyone else be working there or will it just be you? Will you have your own key and 24 hour access?

If I'm getting the gist of your situation--you'll be working in a church kitchen, selling product you bake there and kicking back. Please cover yourself especially if other people will use the kitchen. How will theft be handled? Ask yourself how you are protected if the nuns decide to bring someone else in to do the very baking you are setting up for them and they say to you--thanks, but we're going in a different direction. I know you asked about mixers but I really sense you have more important questions to ask and answer than which mixer to buy.

I don't know anyone who has a Fleetwood. Everyone has 5 Qt. Kitchenaids and 12's and 20's. Like Michael my large Hobart in Zaytinya is used for pita bread and way more often as a meat grinder than for the two things I do in it--my semolina cake and shortbread. And Zaytinya is seriously high volume.

With all those ovens it seems you do have the ambition and the need for a 12 or 20 Hobart. If you'll basically be a one person operation a 12 like kitwilliams bought would probably do you just fine. It's the most versatile as your plans and the items you offer most certainly change--as they will. It'll also handle bread more efficiently.

nightscotsman · July 29, 2003

After day one of using the new KitchenAid 6 quart "test" mixers it seems they work fine. We made brioche Parisienne and danish dough in them. The mixer seemed to have plenty of power and are responsive, and though the bowl is noticably shorter and wider than the 5 quart, it didn't seem to make much difference using the paddle and dough hook. However, one big annoyance is the noise they make - much louder and whinier than the 5 quart. For that reason alone I would tend to stick with the smaller model, but we shall see if any other issues pop up over the next few weeks.

What issues did others have with the current 6 quart? Is there anything I should be looking for that is a known problem that may have been fixed in the test models?

elyse · August 3, 2003

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back, but I wanted to be able to concentrate and spend a bit of time following everything.

Brian - so far, I've only worked with my 20 year old hand beater, and 20-80 qt Hobarts at school.

Sinclaire - I'M off to a better start? Dear God! My intentions are to increase batches and speed. I've started quadrupling my recipes, and that worked well last week. still easier than doing two double batches, although my arms are really feeling it. I also want to do a honey cake which requires MUCH mixing, and won't attempt that by hand lest the cramps make me cry.

OK, we're getting closer Elyse--so it seems like you have a handshake agreement right now but nothing firm down on paper as far as the financial relationship you will have with this kitchen. This can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings down the road. You sense this so make ironing this out your next priority BEFORE you spend very much money on equipment. Do not rush into this with some self-imposed deadline of Tuesday. You don't need anything by Tuesday. if it is worth doing it is worth doing right and protecting both yourself and the nuns.

Tuesday was because I was offered a ride to the Bowery and on to NJ to drop it off. I also wanted to avoid blowing my fucking head off from all the hand mixing. It's time consuming and painful. I could have bought that mixer and presented this "partner" with the bill. We are going to sit down this week to iron some things out. As I understand it, we're not allowed to use the kitchen past August, and I am pissed. His job is to locate a kitchen to use before then.

I'm also especially concerned about the splitting of ingredients cost--that can get very tough to quantify. You might want to maintain your own stock--you buy everything--you have a separate possibly locked storage cart/shelf and don't use anything the church or the nuns use for whatever else goes on in the kitchen--then determine what the nuns share of your "profit" is on that part of your production that is not wholly your own.

Nothing else goes on in the kitchen at this point, so it's me determining how much of whatever goes into my own products, or the cookies (for the convent). I have gotten a couple of numbers for the split. One is that I should get 75%, 25% to the nuns, and the other is 60/40. 75% seems a bit high for me, even though I am doing everything except drive, so I think I'll start out with 60 or 2/3s. Any thoughts?

You have to assign the value of your time and efforts and the nuns have to agree--in writing. It isn't just the making it is the transporting and the packaging and the selling.

And finding distributers/suppliers, budgeting, and trying to remain chipper which is SO difficult. :biggrin:

So at this point, buy the 5 qt Kitchenaid K5A for yourself, pay for it, bring it to the kitchen but plan to keep it if the deal goes sour. Work out your written agreement--trying to protect you I'd suggest that the church purchase the 12/20 quart Hobart with their share of the profit--meaning your first kickbacks to them goes straight toward the Hobart--and then the Hobart becomes the property and responsibility of the kitchen.

You know, it's funny. John put a blurb in the Dominican newsletter (e-mail which supposedly goes out to everyone in the community), and I mentioned it may be easier to go to cafeterias etc on the grounds to ask in the kitchens specifically. 'No, this is better.' Fine. At lunch that day (cafeteria), I went into the kitchen to beg some plastic containers for refrigerating dough, telling the kitchen manager what was going on and about my hand mixing, she said 'you have no mixer? I'll bring you one from home.' Boy was THAT easy. Later that day, I was talking to one of the painters, telling him the same story, and HE offered a mixer from home. Now, I just don't understand how difficult it could possibly be for this guy to get it together, when in one day, I acquired TWO mixers. The one from the cafeteria is small (3 qt), but it cut down my time yesterday, so it's a plus. I am NOT loving my fellow man.

I'd ask yourself--what happens if anything goes wrong in the kitchen? Whose responsility is it to fix it? This should be in writing. Whose responsibility is it to clean the kitchen? Will anyone else be working there or will it just be you? Will you have your own key and 24 hour access?

Yes, we have to sit down with their lawyer and draw something up. Ultimately, I'll be responsible for stupid things that I would do anywhere (burns, whatever), but anything that I ask to be fixed (leaks, refrigerator breakdown, etc.) or general kitchen failings, they will be responsible for. They are responsible for their stuff, me for mine. I'm having a hard time trying to pin down who does the cleaning, but will work that out Tuesday. So far it is me alone working in the kitchen, and I have been given a key. I can use it whenever the busses allow, which on selling day, isn't early enough without major panic. Maybe with the mixer/s this will be assuaged.

If I'm getting the gist of your situation--you'll be working in a church kitchen, selling product you bake there and kicking back. Please cover yourself especially if other people will use the kitchen. How will theft be handled? Ask yourself how you are protected if the nuns decide to bring someone else in to do the very baking you are setting up for them and they say to you--thanks, but we're going in a different direction. I know you asked about mixers but I really sense you have more important questions to ask and answer than which mixer to buy.

Probably true, but for my sanity, the mixer was an important one. Theft is something important to consider but will be spoken of Tuesday as well. Something that wouldn't normally be on my mind in a nunnery.

I don't know anyone who has a Fleetwood. Everyone has 5 Qt. Kitchenaids and 12's and 20's. Like Michael my large Hobart in Zaytinya is used for pita bread and way more often as a meat grinder than for the two things I do in it--my semolina cake and shortbread. And Zaytinya is seriously high volume.
With all those ovens it seems you do have the ambition and the need for a 12 or 20 Hobart. If you'll basically be a one person operation a 12 like kitwilliams bought would probably do you just fine. It's the most versatile as your plans and the items you offer most certainly change--as they will. It'll also handle bread more efficiently.

One recipe I did yesterday in the 3 qt, I had to remove 1/2 the butter creamed with the white sugar, then add the other 1/2 with brown sugar and eggs, and combine them by hand. Then all the flour by hand. A 5qt is still too small, but will do for some of the creaming. I'm really praying for at least a 12, but no more than a 20.

The problem is (one of them anyway) that the days I'm out there, I'm working like a maniac for long days, then I'm here in the city, and can't speak to anyone about the particulars, except for John who seems to be making up a lot of information, and generally screwing me up. Tuesday, I am hoping to sit down with John, the treasurer, and the manager of the motherhouse, who incidentally is pals with the prioress, and can halt all operations. With any luck, we'll all be on the same page, and be able to exist harmoniously. OY!

Thanks!

Richard Kilgore · August 3, 2003

Elyse - I know you are swamped with keeping production going and selling, but I encourage you to pay very careful attention to what Steve is saying about protecting yourself. The nuns have a lawyer, so they're going to protect themselves. Theft? Contract? Insurance?

If the choice is 75/25 vs. 60/40, why are you going low? Is there a reason --- other than it "feels like too much"? You need to be prepared when you go into the meeting.

elyse · August 3, 2003

Sorry, I should have added that as I am baking my own goods, they are not charging me rent or anything, so 75% sounds high to me. That, and the fact that this venture is to raise money for the motherhouse and infirmary or something like that.

Richard Kilgore · August 12, 2003

The Kitchen Aid 5 qt. Commercial is on Amazon for $199.99. Is this the one everyone is recommending? Sounds like a bargain, unless this is a lesser model.

elyse · September 27, 2003

The Kitchen Aid 5 qt. Commercial is on Amazon for $199.99. Is this the one everyone is recommending? Sounds like a bargain, unless this is a lesser model.

Cryin out loud. I didn't see this. Thanks Richard. :sad:

Okay here's the update if you haven't read it elsewhere. Out of the convent, John may be in a mental institution. Anyhoo....

Still don't have a mixer. Starting to look again. I burned out my mother's hand mixer, mine is packed away. Regardless, the business is going well enough to spend some cash to save my sanity. I still think 5 or 6 quarts is too small. 12, I think would be perfect. And it would be mine, all mine.

nightscotsman, any new thoughts on the 6 quart KitchenAids? Anyone else?

Also, waaay earlier, when I said I was making 116 loaves of bread, subtract a hundred. :biggrin:

Richard Kilgore · September 27, 2003

:blink: Glad to hear it's 16! I thought you needed a massage rather than a mixer when I read 116.

I discovered that the above named 5 qt model that was (is?) on Amazon was not the sturdiest model. It's 325 watts. However, I did checkout the COSTCO one, and it is the 350 watt model with splash guard, etc. for $250, a bargain. Check their website. Unless you are going to go for the 12, of course.

elyse · September 27, 2003

I will TOTALLY take a massage. But I still want a mixer. :biggrin:

Will check out Costco.

nightscotsman · September 27, 2003

nightscotsman, any new thoughts on the 6 quart KitchenAids? Anyone else?

We've had the prototype "improved" 6 quarts for over a month now and mostly they've been OK. The only issues we've had are:

- The whisk and paddle attachments could reach closer to the bottom of the bowl for smaller quantities and doughs (lots of scraping and tweaking the bowl up off its supports), but this seems to be an issue will all KithenAids.

- They are louder than the 5 quarts and have a high pitched whine at high speed.

- The particular model on my table has an issue with the speed switch. Sometimes when you crank it to '10' quickly, it doesn't turn on at all, or it will start, but only speed up to about the '8' speed untill you turn it down and back up again.

- The little rubber feet sometimes pop off when sliding it across the table.

Other than these fairly minor issues they've been fine. The power is good, and I like the slowed start feature that keeps ingredients from flying out of the bowl. The wider and shallower bowl hasn't been a big issue.

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