Rethinking tipping culture

[ScoopKW]

Perhaps you can't hear the tourists who *do* tip normally, or you never realise they're European?

C'mon. We're just as capable of spotting foreign visitors in our country as you are.

The fact that your server is genuinely surprised that you haven't stiffed him or her should be the BIG CLUE about how most of your countrymen treat servers.

Edited April 19, 2013 by ScoopKW (log)

[ScoopKW]

The unions would like to address the issue. But they are powerless to do so. The government operates at the pleasure of business. Not the other way around. Tourism boards work for the benefit of business, not people. And you're right, nobody will address the issue. Welcome to America.

But how does not tipping or under tipping help?

Cheating employees out of wages is pretty serious business, yet no one wants to address this abuse--not the Unions, not the local or regional Tourisim boards, not any form of Gov't. The legal minimum wage is ignored and a loophole is put in place, no one will adress this abuse. And yet we should all follow this tipping system........

[sigma]

All this moaning aside, does anybody dispute that servers make roughly 17% on average?

[ScoopKW]

The problem is "on average."

In tourist towns (Orlando, Las Vegas); or in tourist areas (Fisherman's Wharf, Times Square) four or five stiffs a day can mean the difference between paying the rent and homelessness.

And this pervasive attitude of foreign visitors, "Too bad. Not my problem. Why don't you just become more civilized," doesn't help matters.

[SusieQ]

They aren't really being paid $2.13 an hour, though, so I don't know why you are focusing on that. They are being paid, by common convention, $2.13 an hour plus about 17% of the price of what they are serving. Those are two different things entirely. I am left to wonder whether anybody in this thread has ever even taken Econ 101.

Ehh.... No. Servers get paid exactly what their paychecks state, and if it states $2.13/ hr x "X" hours, then that's what they get paid. Tipping is discretionary, it's not guaranteed, Pay rates are.

Being willfully ignorant is an unattractive trait. It is one thing to be unexposed, but this is different. Under your system, of course, bonuses are not pay, benefits are not pay, nothing is pay besides the hourly rate or salary. Think if this makes sense. Generalize it to other fields. Think on it.

What bonuses? What benefits? Geez.

You too? My point is that if only contracted monetary remuneration, wages and salary, are pay then our understanding of compensation in every field, and thus our understanding of labor market economics, is wrong. If we apply to the restaurant business what we do to other fields then tips, as they are an expected part of the normal course of affairs, are part of standard pay. If not, well then we get up on our high horses and piss in the wind.

That's all very well and good. But my point was -- perhaps somewhat obscurely -- that bonuses and benefits are not relevant in this conversation because most servers get nothing in the way of bonuses and benefits.

[SusieQ]

Perhaps you can't hear the tourists who *do* tip normally, or you never realise they're European? Of course, if you're in that kind of tourist area, all bets are off. Those travelling by the "busload" are probably not the most sophisticated of tourists anywhere you go in the world! In any case, it's pointless my attempting to argue with your experience.

As a presumed-undertipping European tourist, I've encountered this "less-than-chuffed" reaction to my arrival at a restaurant. It doesn't always make for a pleasant dining experience, and it really makes it hard for me to understand those who doggedly defend the status quo. I don't think I'll ever agree that discretionary-but-not-really 20% tips are the best way to organise the system, but ultimately it doesn't matter to me. I'll continue to tip properly in the US, irrespective of the quality of service I get, and I'll just try to enjoy the moment of surprise when the server realises I haven't stiffed them.

It's definitely not the best way! But it seems it's the system we're stuck with.

[ScoopKW]

And the way far too many people deal with this knowledge is to say, "Well why don't you go get a better job?" How very Scroogian of them. (I'm sure "Scrooge-like" is probably more correct.)

Things are a bit better here than they were five years ago. But servers HAVE a job. There are many people who want one and still cannot find one. The single parent server trying to raise children on $2.33 an hour plus tips need TIPS. What they don't need is a lesson in Macroeconomics from a smug person with a vastly-inflated sense of entitlement. They don't need foreign visitors telling them they should simply get a better government. They don't need people telling them they don't like the tip culture so they are opting out. And they also don't need people who are stuck in 1958 and pay 10% for good service.

Of course, the servers have to keep their end up and do a good job.

We can rethink tipping culture however we want. I don't think it's possible under our current political gridlock. (I also don't know if foreigners have any idea how bad it is in America right now. If I were capable I would replace our government, top to bottom, with names selected randomly out of a telephone directory. It would be an improvement over the status quo.) BUT UNTIL SUCH TIME that we can overhaul a tired and outdated system, I don't see why the people who are stuck in that system need to suffer further. Most of them have no health benefits, no retirement benefits, and occasionally get religious tracts in lieu of pay. Why heap more abuse on these people?

That's all very well and good. But my point was -- perhaps somewhat obscurely -- that bonuses and benefits are not relevant in this conversation because most servers get nothing in the way of bonuses and benefits.

[sigma]

That's all very well and good. But my point was -- perhaps somewhat obscurely -- that bonuses and benefits are not relevant in this conversation because most servers get nothing in the way of bonuses and benefits.

And my point was that in order to add to our knowledge, concepts have to be generalizable. The generalizable concept is non salary/hourly wage income and whether it is a part of regular compensation. It is kind of the defining question of the whole tipping controversy. Listing other forms of these sorts of compensation only serves to highlight the question at hand, and whether they apply to all professions receiving non wage income is not important. So you weren't obscure, you were unnuanced, it is different.

[Edward J]

The unions would like to address the issue. But they are powerless to do so.

I don't buy that. Unions don't want to, yes. Powerless to do so, no. Fact is, not many people--Americans or non-Americans, know about the "tipping wage". Paying far below minimum wage is pretty stinky, but lobbying and getting your way to ake it so is even stinkier. Edited April 20, 2013 by heidih
Fix quote tags (log)

[Ericpo]

Mercy.

Having just read through (most) of this thread my head is spinning a little at all the different viewpoints. I watched the video that inspired the topic earlier today. As I came to the end of the current discussions, it seemed that arguments became progressively more political.

I have not made up my mind on any of this yet, as I want to give it due consideration. One thing is clear: eG is full of intelligent people that all share a passion for food. Note that outside of that passion opinions vary greatly.

That being said, I have a very personal perspective to offer. I have worked in a wide variety of restaurants and food service jobs. Line cook, server, host, butcher, sous-chef, the list goes on. I've worked back of house and front of house. I'm not going to say which is easier or harder, because that tends to depend upon the individual. One person may find the stress of dealing with guests face to face is very challenging, another might argue that the heat and fast pace of back of house is simply intolerable. They would both be right of course.

Personally, I prefer cooking. Always have. It's not that I couldn't serve, or that I couldn't make good money serving(I did!). Cooking is simply my passion. With a regretable lack of modesty, I will say that I'm a pretty good cook. Great, even. I base this off of countless compliments received, and persistent job offers to "come work for me!". The point I'm winding up to here is this: I do not cook professionally anymore. Being a heavy equipment operator pays my bills.

The reason I don't cook professionally is that it simply does not pay enough, at least not where I live. So I went looking for other jobs, and landed in a bulldozer lol. Let me be clear, I don't need to make a fortune. While cooking, it was mostly paycheck to paycheck living. Serving I could make roughly as much as I do now. So in a sense, one could argue that tipping is the reason I left the industry. It is their loss.

I will continue to tip servers who provide me with a good dining experience, because it is the accepted practice. Also, because frankly there are only a half dozen restaurants I regularly go to, and the servers recognize me. I will not ever again leave that tip blithely though.

[ScoopKW]

Even here in Las Vegas, the culinary union only represents the workers at the big casinos. We all have it pretty good. And servers here make more than $2.33 -- and they get benefits. So the union is doing it's job for us.

But MOST culinary workers in Las Vegas do not fall under the union blanket and get nothing. For every server where I work, there are 50 who work at places like Applebee's, Red Lobster, and Ma & Pa's diner. Many of the "ma and pa" operations pay under the table -- their workers have no benefits and not even workman's comp or unemployment insurance. And people put up with this because times are still very, very hard here. Any job is better than no job. That's just the reality of the situation.

You seem to be awfully optimistic about the options these people have. I'm telling you they don't have options. And your rebuttal is usually something along the lines of "well, they should." I absolutely agree with you. But that isn't reality. The reality is $2.33 and no benefits.

The unions would like to address the issue. But they are powerless to do so.

I don't buy that. Unions don't want to, yes. Powerless to do so, no. Fact is, not many people--Americans or non-Americans, know about the "tipping wage". Paying far below minimum wage is pretty stinky, but lobbying and getting your way to ake it so is even stinkier.

[Edward J]

Benefits? What benefits? As far as I know the only benefits in the hospitality industry are free meals, or meals at a "staff discount", and that opinion is formed after working close to 3o years in this industry--in three continents.

The only way out of this mess is have qualifications and benchmarks for the respective trades within the hospitality industry. And that can't even begin to happen until employees acknowledge it.

[annabelle]

Even here in Las Vegas, the culinary union only represents the workers at the big casinos. We all have it pretty good. And servers here make more than $2.33 -- and they get benefits. So the union is doing it's job for us.

But MOST culinary workers in Las Vegas do not fall under the union blanket and get nothing. For every server where I work, there are 50 who work at places like Applebee's, Red Lobster, and Ma & Pa's diner. Many of the "ma and pa" operations pay under the table -- their workers have no benefits and not even workman's comp or unemployment insurance. And people put up with this because times are still very, very hard here. Any job is better than no job. That's just the reality of the situation.

You seem to be awfully optimistic about the options these people have. I'm telling you they don't have options. And your rebuttal is usually something along the lines of "well, they should." I absolutely agree with you. But that isn't reality. The reality is $2.33 and no benefits.

Working under the table is the way of the world for many people, not just those who work in restaurants. Anyone who is paid in cash, e.g.; the guy who cuts your lawn or cleans your pool, the housekeeper who tidies up two times a week, the babysitter, roofers, delivery persons (flowers, landscape items), the guy who dug in your inlawn sprinkler system, and waitstaff and sometimes dishwashers.

Many times these people actually come out money ahead. They are eligible for many programs for the poor; Medicaid, SNAP, EBT, reduced payment on utilities, free cell-phones, et cetera. And, the big one, at tax time they are eligible for the EITC. The Earned Income Tax Credit. Since they have no receipts, they cannot prove they earned much at all. Our tax code has turned many of our citizens (and aliens) into scoff-laws.

I can speak to my own experience of having earned money off the books as a 15 year old selling cut flowers from a kiosk. Waiting tables for $1.63 plus tips, with a uniform and a free meal, in a warm restaurant was leaps and bounds from standing out on a street corner in the weather surrounded by flowers.

Edited April 20, 2013 by annabelle (log)

[sigma]

Benefits? What benefits? As far as I know the only benefits in the hospitality industry are free meals, or meals at a "staff discount", and that opinion is formed after working close to 3o years in this industry--in three continents.

The only way out of this mess is have qualifications and benchmarks for the respective trades within the hospitality industry. And that can't even begin to happen until employees acknowledge it.

So your contention is that the way to improve an industry is to make the employment situation more ossified? Interesting.

[ScoopKW]

If you're addressing my previous post (the quote feature is useful), I'm saying that the servers where I work have full medical, retirement and pension benefits, just like every other member of the culinary union. When it comes to benefits, only United States senators have it better than we do.

It doesn't matter if you have worked 30 years in the industry or on how many continents. This isn't the first time I have told you how compensation works for a member of the culinary union in Las Vegas. Either you have a very short attention span, or you think I'm a liar.

Benefits? What benefits? As far as I know the only benefits in the hospitality industry are free meals, or meals at a "staff discount", and that opinion is formed after working close to 3o years in this industry--in three continents.

The only way out of this mess is have qualifications and benchmarks for the respective trades within the hospitality industry. And that can't even begin to happen until employees acknowledge it.

[Edward J]

Take a look at trades like plumbers, electricians, gas fitters, auto mechanics, etc., and see what they have done. Go to Europe and see how the respective trades there determine a sustainable wage.

THEN come back and ask open ended questions...........

[Edward J]

Uh, ScoopKW I do apologize, the above post was referring to Sigma's post. I am having difficulties with using the quote buttons.

In regards to benefits, I haven't seen any in a CDN Union enviroment, Firstly no CDN hospitality Union offers benefits, they offer Union negotiated benefits, but the Unions don't pay this out, the employers do. Secondly no one is entitled to benefits until after the probation period--typically 3 mths but can be as long as 9 mths. Union dues are still subtracted from the paycheck during this period.

I do know that in the large hotels in Vegas new hires are given the optioon of not joining the Union, but whatever choice they make, they still have Union dues deducted from their payckecks ,

[ScoopKW]

I do know that in the large hotels in Vegas new hires are given the optioon of not joining the Union, but whatever choice they make, they still have Union dues deducted from their payckecks ,

Incorrect. Nevada is a right-to-work state. A worker who opts-out of the union DOES NOT have dues deducted. Many of my coworkers opted out. We all get the same benefits, though. My medical benefits and pension come DIRECTLY from the union. The other casino workers have their own health and retirement plans. Culinary is a completely separate entity.

If you need information about how the culinary union works in America, feel free to ask. You are debating armed with facts that are simply incorrect. If you knew how things actually work here in America, I have a feeling your debate position would be vastly different.

[sigma]

Edward, why is it that you strive to remain so belligerently ignorant of any explanations other than your own. Good, bad, black, white, ignorance.

[Edward J]

Yes, that's where I got my information from, the culinary workers--that is, the cooks.

Sigma, I'll be waiting to hear your research on the respective trades and their salary ranges that are pegged to trade qualifications.

[IndyRob]

I've been following this thread for a while and think it's an important one. However, there's a lot of noise introduced by various political and other biases. I think ScoopKW challenged us to come up with a solution that would be viable in the U.S. I'd like to suggest that this is indeed possible in the same way that we've found solutions in most cases in this country - consensus.

However, in order to reach consensus we have to be willing to drop a lot of baggage including affiliation, tradition and selfishness. We must approach the discussion from the standpoint that restaurants, their employees, and customers cannot exist without each other. Within a restaurant we also have to balance the interests of the kitchen and dining room staff. It's all a symbiotic relationship that will not be helped by seeking to tear down those that you depend on.

Same with the NRA and Unions. They represent their members. They will by definition disagree.

The basic question is whether tipping is a useful institution. I honestly haven't seen a particularly compelling argument that it is. Yes, it gives the consumer some power - but in a way they don't expect to have in virtually any other transaction. Perhaps it's necessary to offset the $2.33/hour worker with no benefits - even though I could walk to a McDonalds near me (I just checked their career page) and get $7.25/hour (If they'd have me).

Government doesn't have to do everything. Recent news has Costco eating Wal-Mart's lunch while paying employees a 'living wage'. I think they may get it.

[ScoopKW]

Yes, that's where I got my information from, the culinary workers--that is, the cooks.

Sigma, I'll be waiting to hear your research on the respective trades and their salary ranges that are pegged to trade qualifications.

Well, you were misled about how the union works. Nevada is a "Right to Work" state. That means that the employee is NOT required to join the union, and yet they get the same benefits as those of us who pay the dues. You fill in a form when hired and that's that. It basically works like the ideal situation you described earlier where the unions have to do a good enough job that workers WANT to pay dues. That's exactly how it works with the Culinary Union in Las Vegas. I don't know if this is the case elsewhere. But that's how it is here.

[Rainee]

That's all very well and good. But my point was -- perhaps somewhat obscurely -- that bonuses and benefits are not relevant in this conversation because most servers get nothing in the way of bonuses and benefits.

And my point was that in order to add to our knowledge, concepts have to be generalizable. The generalizable concept is non salary/hourly wage income and whether it is a part of regular compensation. It is kind of the defining question of the whole tipping controversy. Listing other forms of these sorts of compensation only serves to highlight the question at hand, and whether they apply to all professions receiving non wage income is not important. So you weren't obscure, you were unnuanced, it is different.

One pertinent difference is that most jobs which offer significant compensation in the form of bonuses, discretionary pay, or other variable rate compensation schemes have much higher average pay than service jobs. For example, professionals in finance or law often get a large part of their total compensation in discretionary bonuses. Just like waiters, they don't know how much they're going to get paid until after they have put in the work. But unlike servers, they get a six figure base salary. They are not getting below minimum wage on their guaranteed wages.

So while generalizing is good, it would be a mistake to say "a job is a job" and ignore the very large differences between servers making $2.13/hr plus tips, and corporate lawyers making $250K/year plus bonus.

[Rainee]

Here's a thought.

Let's say that my state changed its policy so that there were no exceptions to the minimum wage for tipped employees. I would immediately have to raise hourly pay for servers, bartenders, etc, probably around 2x - 3x the current level. I estimate that I would need to raise menu prices by about 20-25% across the board to cover this increase in labor costs. Maybe more if you factor in increased payroll taxes.

At that point, would most customers revert to a European style of tipping, e.g. leave a couple dollars if you feel like it? I think most would.

And while this would certainly reduce the volatility of servers' pay, would they end up making less on average? I think in a lot of cases they would.

[Dave Hatfield]

I'm not too sure about the math here.

Current minimum wage is $7.25 an hour. If to get to that level you would have to raise the hourly rate by, say, 2.5X then you must currently be paying $2.90 an hour. Right?

Now if you have to raise prices by 20% then a !00.00 meal goes up to $120.00. This implies that since your labour rate has gone up by $3.35 an hour the labour content of the meal is roughly 5.5 hours. ($20.00/$3.35)

I don't really think so.