When is it permissible to not tip?

[patrickamory]

Under the North American system, shouldn't the tip should reflect the service?

Yes, but only to the extent that it's greater than the minimum for exceptional service, and less than the minimum for truly awful service.

95% of the time you will be leaving 20% (arguably 15% away from the coasts and Chicago), because the employers and the state assume that that amount is part of the waiter's living wage.

Edited July 24, 2011 by patrickamory (log)

[Edward J]

[under the North American system, shouldn't the tip should reflect the service?

This is a question that ranks up there with "What is a Chef?"

Here are my thoughts on tipping:

The guest tips a percentage of the entire bill, right? That is to say, a percentage of the entire dining experience. Now, the server works very hard, but every one in that establishment is responsible for the entire dining experience.

Doesn't make sense for me, in perfect world the tip would be split up.

But Patrickamory brings up some very good points.

Firstly, I mst declare that I never really have been to the States--other than an obligatory pilgramage to see the duck and the mouses when the kids were small.

Currently, in B.C. (British Columbia, Canada) the minimum wage is $8.25/hr. Provincial Gov't will raise this to $10.00 in the next two years, probably in two "jumps" or increases of a dollar each. There are no "minimum, minimum" wages for waiters, they get the eight bucks plus tips. With the recession, a new law on lower blood alcohol levels (.05%) and now the new minimum wage, many of the restaurants are screaming--a triple whammy. A proposal for a "minium, minimum" wage for servers that will be cheaper than the minimum wage will be given to the Provincial Gov't.

I am set dead against this, and I wrote to the lobbying group with a letter in which I made two points. The first was about tips itself, same as what I wrote in the above paragraph--the waiter can not possibly claim a percentage of the entire dining experience. The second point I made was that there are no standards--no benchmarks or qualifications for waiters, so how can you have a special wage for a singled out trade that doesn't even have standards?

[Jaymes]

2) When the guest deduces that the server is a family member of the owner

I'm not with you on that one. I know a person who owns a small restaurant. She has a cook and one server working at any given time. During one of those shifts, her daughter is the server. She does the same work as the other servers, gets the same pay as the other servers and has the same living expenses as the other servers. Why is she less deserving of a tip based entirely on her being the owners daughter?

There was a Chinese restaurant in our small town. It was run entirely by the family - mother, much older dad, two teenaged boys.

The dad basically hung around and did absolutely nothing, other than (very) occasional cash register duty. The mom did all the cooking and much of the cleanup and often dashed out of the kitchen and over to the cash register, while the dad sat on his rear at a corner table, reading and keeping an eagle eye on the diners. The sons waited tables and helped with cleanup.

I always tipped 20%. But very few locals (if any) other than I tipped at all. Those two boys went to our local high school and everyone knew them. They said that as soon as they got a table bussed, and picked up the tip, they had to hand it over to the parents who were about as miserly as it's possible to get.

After that got out, nobody I knew was very much in a mood to tip them. I owned a small business in that town, though, and tipped very well in local restaurants, regardless as to service, etc. Part of my marketing ploy, I figured.

Elsewhere, although I will adjust the tip based on aspects of service, the only reason I have ever not tipped at all has been because my server was not only incompetent, but surly, rude or insulting. So, no money on the table, and a word to management on my way out.

And that's only happened a very few times over the years.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Jaymes (log)

[jrshaul]

Here's a question for you:

What defines unacceptable service?

I'm hazarding a guess by stating that most eGullet participants have the mannerisms and appearance befitting someone of means. Regardless of your actual level of income, your speech and clothing suggest that you present an excellent investment of a waiters' time and energy.

However, this cannot be said of all diners. Patrons guilty of looking broke or foreign are given lower priority than more statistically lucrative tables, and the service is perceptibly inferior.

I'm living with my parents this summer to save money towards tuition. I find it infuriating when I receive markedly inferior service at the same restaurant, compared not only to other customers but to a visit made with my father six weeks before. This problem is especially prevalent at midpriced establishments; restaurants with high-end menus having enough professionalism to serve me regardless while the budget end of the spectrum not particularly concerned.

Am I out of line? I recognize that for the majority of my classmates, eating out means free bacon on Tuesdays at Wando's Bar. As someone who uses a lot of coupons and never orders alcohol, I'm a low-profit customer; while I do tip 20%, it's usually on a very small bill bereft of beverage or appetizer. Perhaps I do in fact perceive random accidents as intended slights, but given the visible decrease in quality of service, it's difficult to distinguish. Should I accept reduced service as the penalty for spending a third the sum of the man at the table next to me, or are my grievances justifiable?

Also, on an unrelated note: I'm not much of a journalist; for me, it's really just a hobby. However, I think I do a fairly good job of it. Despite circulation of at most a few thousand, I've made a noticeable difference in patronage at two especially remarkable establishments, and presumably created equal damage at those I've maligned. While both my praise and criticism are poorly restrained, the end result is actually read and perceived as relatively untainted by sympathy for the damned or (more commonly) the need for advertising dollars.

Edited July 25, 2011 by jrshaul (log)

[Jaymes]

Here's a question for you:

What defines unacceptable service?

I'm hazarding a guess by stating that most eGullet participants have the mannerisms and appearance befitting someone of means. Regardless of your actual level of income, your speech and clothing suggest that you present an excellent investment of a waiters' time and energy.

However, this cannot be said of all diners. Patrons guilty of looking broke or foreign are given lower priority than more statistically lucrative tables, and the service is perceptibly inferior.

I'm living with my parents this summer to save money towards tuition. I find it infuriating when I receive markedly inferior service at the same restaurant, compared not only to other customers but to a visit made with my father six weeks before. This problem is especially prevalent at midpriced establishments; restaurants with high-end menus having enough professionalism to serve me regardless while the budget end of the spectrum not particularly concerned.

Am I out of line? I recognize that for the majority of my classmates, eating out means free bacon on Tuesdays at Wando's Bar. As someone who uses a lot of coupons and never orders alcohol, I'm a low-profit customer; while I do tip 20%, it's usually on a very small bill bereft of beverage or appetizer. Perhaps I do in fact perceive random accidents as intended slights, but given the visible decrease in quality of service, it's difficult to distinguish. Should I accept reduced service as the penalty for spending a third the sum of the man at the table next to me, or are my grievances justifiable?

Also, on an unrelated note: I'm not much of a journalist; for me, it's really just a hobby. However, I think I do a fairly good job of it. Despite circulation of at most a few thousand, I've made a noticeable difference in patronage at two especially remarkable establishments, and presumably created equal damage at those I've maligned. While both my praise and criticism are poorly restrained, the end result is actually read and perceived as relatively untainted by sympathy for the damned or (more commonly) the need for advertising dollars.

Two thoughts:

First, nobody has more of a reputation for being a poor tipper than a single old gray-haired lady pushing 70 and dining alone. That's me. And I'm on a fixed income, so rarely order extras such as appetizers, desserts, or drinks of any kind (don't routinely drink a lot of alcohol and not a fan of sodas or other sweet beverages with meals). When I perceive that my server would like to put me on the back burner (speaking figuratively, of course), I just get even more friendly and pleasantly insistent that my service be as good as anyone else's. And I tip well enough that they remember me on my next visit.

Second, I find the title of this thread to be disingenuous. After reading your initial question, subsequent posts and questions, it appears to me that you are not so much interested in our opinions as you are in proving your own.

Which seems to be that it's okay to publicly malign a restaurant for what you, rightly or wrongly, have decided must be intentionally insulting service because you are a college student.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Jaymes (log)

[Mjx]

Here's a question for you:

What defines unacceptable service?

I'm hazarding a guess by stating that most eGullet participants have the mannerisms and appearance befitting someone of means. Regardless of your actual level of income, your speech and clothing suggest that you present an excellent investment of a waiters' time and energy.

However, this cannot be said of all diners. Patrons guilty of looking broke or foreign are given lower priority than more statistically lucrative tables, and the service is perceptibly inferior.

I'm living with my parents this summer to save money towards tuition. I find it infuriating when I receive markedly inferior service at the same restaurant, compared not only to other customers but to a visit made with my father six weeks before. This problem is especially prevalent at midpriced establishments; restaurants with high-end menus having enough professionalism to serve me regardless while the budget end of the spectrum not particularly concerned.

Am I out of line? I recognize that for the majority of my classmates, eating out means free bacon on Tuesdays at Wando's Bar. As someone who uses a lot of coupons and never orders alcohol, I'm a low-profit customer; while I do tip 20%, it's usually on a very small bill bereft of beverage or appetizer. Perhaps I do in fact perceive random accidents as intended slights, but given the visible decrease in quality of service, it's difficult to distinguish. Should I accept reduced service as the penalty for spending a third the sum of the man at the table next to me, or are my grievances justifiable?

. . . .

Unacceptable service is service that is rude or actively negligent.

Waitstaff is supposed to [sometimes] seat you, take your order, bring your food and drink, and communicate anything you may want passed along to the kitchen. This should be done as well as their intelligence and other resources permit.

Sometimes, you'll get someone spectacularly incompetent waiting on you. This can be incredibly frustrating, but it makes no sense to punish someone unintelligent or inexperienced by not tipping, if they're clearly doing their best. Also, this is a job that draws a lot of students, which can mean that when your waiter stares glassily over your head, he or she may not be ignoring you, but more or less asleep on his or her feet. Again, I'd hesitate to not tip because someone seems like they're not functioning on all cylinders.

It can be difficult to figure out whether someone is ignoring you or overworked, and it really is best to not take things too personally.

I recommend you wait tables for a bit: it will answer a lot of your questions.

You may be right about eG members being mostly well-heeled, but I have the impression that they cover a fairly broad economic spectrum. I'm at the less impressive end of this spectrum, incidentally, and do not look particularly affluent, but can't say that I've usually received worse service than anyone else at a given restaurant at a given time, even when I've been on my own, and made it clear at the outset that I wouldn't be drinking anything alcoholic.

I'm also not sure what you mean by 'looking broke'. There's 'not wearing this season's couturier offerings', and there's 'dressing like Bart Simpson'. At many restaurants, if you show up wearing sloppy jeans or shorts/sweatshirt/trainers, you just won't be treated as well. Not fair? Perhaps, but that's just the way it is. Most of the time, my clothing is really casual, but if I go out to dinner, I'll dress accordingly, it just seems like a respectful gesture. Even when I was living in a $75/week room, I made a point of having a decent top, decent skirt/pants, and a pair of shoes other than my Grinders, so, if necessary, I could look like a grownup.

I've never noticed that foreigners routinely get worse treatment, either, even though they often don't tip (in a lot of countries, you just don't, because waitstaff is paid proper wages).

[ChrisTaylor]

From a differing cultural perspective and all--and coming from, yes, a country where waitstaff are paid a proper wage--I only tip when the service is great. If I'm visiting in a large group I'll tend to tip even if the service is merely good. I do not tip if the service is, for whatever reason, crap. That's how the system works here. A lot of people don't tip at all. A lot of people, rather than tipping some 10% or 20% or whatever%, will 'round up'--if a bill comes to $280, you hand over $300 and don't take the change. Even people I know who tip regularly balk at the idea of a restaurant that automatically includes an itemised 'x% service charge' on their bill. That's a line we don't want to cross. I have a problem with that, even though I may go there and feel that the service justifies me volunteering an extra 10%.

I understand that if I was to visit the US I'd be expected to fork out extra money for service anywhere and everywhere. And I'd accept this--when in Rome and all--but only to a point. If I was to get truly terrible service or be ignored because, you know, I'm Australian (although good luck picking the accent) and less likely to tip, I'd, er, live down to expectations and not feel bad about it.

Cooks and waitstaff are humans and make mistakes, yes, and that's just fine. It doesn't make for 'bad service' if there are one or two slip-ups along the way--so long as they're acknowledged or corrected or simply made up for by otherwise great service. But at the same time, if you're a paying customer--and this goes for McDonald's just as much as it goes for the French Laundry just as much as it goes for any business you give your hard-earned to--the staff member's Introduction to Java Programming assignment, credit card debt or relationship problems aren't your problem. You've paid for a certain about of professionalism--not a robot, to be sure, but it's totally reasonable to expect a person to do the job they're being paid to do. I can't be a crappy teacher for the day because life is hard or I'm exhausted. That's not how it works. I need to get my shit together and make it through until 3:30, at which point I can go collapse in the corner. There's that saying, after all: an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. If the service is truly, truly, truly bad--and by bad I don't mean petty shit like 'they accidentally gave me my girlfriend's steak when I ordered the trout' or 'they took five minutes to give me a menu'--then I refuse to give it any more money than I have through whatever the amount on the bill was.

[Kouign Aman]

Often, the error or annoyance will be quickly corrected if brought to someone's attention.

Try it, and if that doesnt work, dont come back. Do write the manager a polite letter explaining why you wont come back, and why you wish it werent that way.

"I ate here Tuesday. The food is so creative and good that I really regret that I wont be returning due to being seated under a leaky ceiling, and not being moved once it was brought to the staff's attention".

Worst case, they round file it, you made your point and you moved on.

Best case, they send you a nice "we're sorry, please come back", you do, and its lovely.

Really bad service, ask to speak to manager. Maybe the waitperson's kid was hospitalized that day and they are more distracted than they realize.

There are times I dont tip, but first I ask to have it made right. I agree with this:

How they react to being asked to correct the mistake

[Broken English]

A lot of people don't tip at all. A lot of people, rather than tipping some 10% or 20% or whatever%, will 'round up'--if a bill comes to $280, you hand over $300 and don't take the change.

I usually go as a solo diner in high end places (I often prefer it because I don't have to spend my evening worrying if the other person is as 'into it' as I am), and I will usually just round up on a $170 bill. Unless the food and service are exceptional, I don't see any real need to tip any more than $10-30, but again, that goes back to a culture where tips aren't factored in to the waiter's wages.

[Edward J]

Despite circulation of at most a few thousand, I've made a noticeable difference in patronage at two especially remarkable establishments, and presumably created equal damage at those I've maligned.

Oh dear..........

That kind of a statement puts icebergs down my, uh..."bathing suit area".

Look, Mr. JR Shaul, I have but two requests for you, and I really want you to consider them--you don't have to follow up on them, (although it would be ideal if you did) but I really want you you to consider them, O.K.?

The first is to "know the enemy". Please, please, pretty please with a cherry on top, get a a job in a restaurant. Just for a month. Walk the mile in the man's shoes before you judge him, O.K.? Everything you do in life is experience, and you can really use this experience, especially if you want to continue writing about the hospitality industry.

The second is to print off this entire thread on paper and stuff it in an envelope with a note on that envelope to be opened in 3 year's time. If, after that time you can open the envelope and read it's contents and can critique your comments as well as all the others, then the world is a good place. If you can not open the envelope and refuse to read the thread--including your posts, well then, the the world is a bad place.

All I'm asking is to consider these two requests.

[Simon_S]

Please, please, pretty please with a cherry on top, get a a job in a restaurant. Just for a month. Walk the mile in the man's shoes before you judge him, O.K.?

And the whole world of criticism crumbles before our very eyes. I see this comment made frequently about wait staff, and I just don't get it. Why is this so different to:

- Don't judge your surgeon's mistakes until you've been a surgeon.

- Don't judge a musical act until you've been a professional musician.

- Don't judge a thief until you've been a thief.

Bad service is bad service whether the diner has waited tables or not. Why the diner should have to pay for that service no matter how bad it is continues to elude me.

But hey, I come from a different culture.

[Edward J]

Fair enough.

What scares me about jrshaul's post was what I quoted.

As a business owner, I get e-mail requests at least once a month from bloggers, asking if they can visit my place and blog about it. I respond with of course, and I get return e-mails with "but-tummm, uh, well, ah, you don't think I'm actually going to pay the full price, do you?". (You insignificant litte piece of snot, don't you realize I can make or break you?)

I get the same attitude with trade shows, marketing people, etc. They need me to help them promote thier trade show/marketing thingee, but spin it around so that the onus is on me, "Look, we're doing it all for you, and because of that, we want a piece of your action".

But honestly Simon S, don't you think it would be important to work in a restaurant if you want to write about it? No special skills or qualifications needed to work in restaurant, and it just might give some good insight.

[Simon_S]

Actually I really don't, and I'd almost argue that it could skew a critic's view in an inappropriate direction. That's not to say I think bloggers/would-be critics are entitled to be ignorant, far from it, but if I'm reading a blog, I'm interested in the experience as encountered. I've never waited tables, but I feel I'm pretty well-qualified to talk about restaurants I've been to lots of times. I know good service when I see it, and I know bad service when I see it. As a punter, the reasons behind the bad service are virtually irrelevant to me.

That said, there is a whole other side to this discussion which is related to the blogging world and the average blogger's inflated sense of self-importance. I'm not surprised that leaves a bad taste in business owners' mouths! It is, however, a separate issue. I believe, in my heart, that a diner who encounters appalling service shouldn't be obliged to pay his/her server 20% of the bill for the privilege of experiencing it. If it is the case that you have to pay no matter what, then I simply don't understand the logic of leaving a tip-based model in place.

[Edward J]

Totally agree with you on the tipping issue, for I honestly don't believe a server should get a tip based on a percentage of the entire dining experience, and I honestly think servers should get paid a fair wage and not have to rely on tips as the lion's share of their paycheqe.

However........This is N. Anmerica. There are no standards or qualifications for what a cook should be,there are no standards or qualifications for what a servers should be, and the same for owners. In Europe cooks are appprenticed for 3 years, waiters for two years, and owners/operators must pass a specialy designed couse for foodservice businesses.

Should N. America ever get qualifications in place within the hosptiality industry, then the whole issue of tipping could be tackled.

[Mjx]

Please, please, pretty please with a cherry on top, get a a job in a restaurant. Just for a month. Walk the mile in the man's shoes before you judge him, O.K.?

And the whole world of criticism crumbles before our very eyes. I see this comment made frequently about wait staff, and I just don't get it. Why is this so different to:

- Don't judge your surgeon's mistakes until you've been a surgeon.

- Don't judge a musical act until you've been a professional musician.

- Don't judge a thief until you've been a thief.

Bad service is bad service whether the diner has waited tables or not. Why the diner should have to pay for that service no matter how bad it is continues to elude me.

But hey, I come from a different culture.

Waiting tables is a bit different from being a surgeon, musician or thief, though, in that nearly anyone who falls within the category of 'employable' is eligible for the job. And, since in most cases, it is an appallingly poorly paid job, for a lot of people it's a sort of last resort, especialy when they're young, and haven't yet acquired a skill set.

If you wait tables even briefly, you start seeing the entire situation, rather than your own isolated case as a diner. You learn to differentiate between inexcusably bad service, and a night where waitstaff is spread too thin, because two waiters are out with with flu at the same time, or a new server, who just doesn't yet know the ropes, and is really trying.

. . . . I know good service when I see it, and I know bad service when I see it. As a punter, the reasons behind the bad service are virtually irrelevant to me.

. . . .

You may be right, but... okay: Can you differentiate between a waitress who going out of her way to avoid doing anything, and one who is trying to stay on top of things, while making lengthy detours to avoid passing by the table with the habitual bum grabber? The latter happens pretty often, managers can't always be bothered to intervene (or prefer not to, if the guy is a big spender), so you're kind of on your own. Being expendable and relying on tips hurts efficiency.

The reasons behind less-than-ideal service may be irrelevant to you, but I'm fairly certain that that if you were to wait tables in the US for even a brief time, this would very likely change.

Frankly, I hate the the whole 'waitress wages' thing, and cannot understand how it remains legal.

[GordonCooks]

When is it permissible not to tip?

When the server draws blood or breaks a bone of someone dining at your table.

When the restaurant becomes engulfed in flames.

When the restaurant is robbed and your wallet is taken.

These are the only cases, otherwise, a standard tip is as much of the check as the food you eat.

You've stated the reasons why it may happen, is it perfectly just? Maybe not but what is these days. I started dining out at a young age - I was sat at lousy tables, waited maybe longer than most, and other stuff. What did I do? I was polite, I ordered what I could afford, and tipped a little better. Soon after, I was a preferred customer - not because I was spending a lot at the time, but I was appreciative and it went both ways.

If the hyper focus of the meal is how long you're waiting for bread, have another glass of wine and relax. It's dinner, it's supposed to be enjoyable.

[Will]

It's never appropriate not to tip. If you really want to send a message to the server, and the service was absolutely awful, tip 10-12%.

Personally, I tip around 20% in almost all cases.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Will (log)

[Honkman]

Despite circulation of at most a few thousand, I've made a noticeable difference in patronage at two especially remarkable establishments, and presumably created equal damage at those I've maligned.

Oh dear..........

That kind of a statement puts icebergs down my, uh..."bathing suit area".

Look, Mr. JR Shaul, I have but two requests for you, and I really want you to consider them--you don't have to follow up on them, (although it would be ideal if you did) but I really want you you to consider them, O.K.?

The first is to "know the enemy". Please, please, pretty please with a cherry on top, get a a job in a restaurant. Just for a month. Walk the mile in the man's shoes before you judge him, O.K.? Everything you do in life is experience, and you can really use this experience, especially if you want to continue writing about the hospitality industry.

The second is to print off this entire thread on paper and stuff it in an envelope with a note on that envelope to be opened in 3 year's time. If, after that time you can open the envelope and read it's contents and can critique your comments as well as all the others, then the world is a good place. If you can not open the envelope and refuse to read the thread--including your posts, well then, the the world is a bad place.

All I'm asking is to consider these two requests.

I don't necessaryly agree with your first point that you have to work in a certain in industry to understand it and judge it but it definitely helps.

But I agree with your second point and found the first quote from the OP pointing towards a general problem in this discussion - somebody is taking himself way too serious and seems to expect that things have to be done only his way.

[Simon_S]

You may be right, but... okay: Can you differentiate between a waitress who going out of her way to avoid doing anything, and one who is trying to stay on top of things, while making lengthy detours to avoid passing by the table with the habitual bum grabber?

Well...yes I can. I think anyone who has eaten in a variety of restaurants, who has eyes to see, and who doesn't live exclusively in their own little bubble can easily tell such things. It's also pretty obvious to me when somebody hasn't turned up and the remaining staff are over-stretched. It's pretty obvious to me when there are problems in the kitchen. It's pretty obvious when a new menu is being served that the staff aren't used to yet. This isn't rocket science, but it's also not a situation where I'd under-tip. As mentioned above, attitude is key, and if somebody is obviously making a genuine effort they that's always a pretty good start.

I'm not so precious that I'll under-tip if the bread doesn't arrive straightaway or if I experience some of the other minor slights mentioned above. But there are major things that can go wrong, very occasionally, and if they occur I certainly wouldn't tip in Ireland, and I'd be VERY reluctant to tip anywhere in the world. For example, if a server is actively rude/insulting without any reason (as I have experienced), I really don't see whey they should be paid, by me, for that "service".

All that said, whenever I'm in the US I just tip 20% pretty much no matter what, because life is too short to deal with the associated hassle of under-tipping (some friends who tried to under-tip for poor service had the exits blocked when they tried to leave...) I've just learned to suck it up.

What I don't understand is why this model continues to persist if the tip is in no way optional? In the US of all places? After all, paying somebody the same irrespective of how lazy they are is bordering on communism!!!

[Mjx]

You may be right, but... okay: Can you differentiate between a waitress who going out of her way to avoid doing anything, and one who is trying to stay on top of things, while making lengthy detours to avoid passing by the table with the habitual bum grabber?

Well...yes I can. I think anyone who has eaten in a variety of restaurants, who has eyes to see, and who doesn't live exclusively in their own little bubble can easily tell such things. It's also pretty obvious to me when somebody hasn't turned up and the remaining staff are over-stretched. It's pretty obvious to me when there are problems in the kitchen. It's pretty obvious when a new menu is being served that the staff aren't used to yet. This isn't rocket science, but it's also not a situation where I'd under-tip. As mentioned above, attitude is key, and if somebody is obviously making a genuine effort they that's always a pretty good start.

I'm not so precious that I'll under-tip if the bread doesn't arrive straightaway or if I experience some of the other minor slights mentioned above. But there are major things that can go wrong, very occasionally, and if they occur I certainly wouldn't tip in Ireland, and I'd be VERY reluctant to tip anywhere in the world. For example, if a server is actively rude/insulting without any reason (as I have experienced), I really don't see whey they should be paid, by me, for that "service".

Sounds fair enough; I was curious, though

All that said, whenever I'm in the US I just tip 20% pretty much no matter what, because life is too short to deal with the associated hassle of under-tipping (some friends who tried to under-tip for poor service had the exits blocked when they tried to leave...) I've just learned to suck it up.

You're more generous than I am, then; since I have waited tables, I'm picky about negligence, and if the waiter is, say, standing at the next table, flirting with the guys there while my dish grows cold in his hand, I'm not tipping 20%!

What I don't understand is why this model continues to persist if the tip is in no way optional? In the US of all places? After all, paying somebody the same irrespective of how lazy they are is bordering on communism!!!

There you have me. It will never cease to mystify me.

[Edward J]

What I don't understand is why this model continues to persist if the tip is in no way optional? In the US of all places? After all, paying somebody the same irrespective of how lazy they are is bordering on communism!!!

Look at the situation a little differently, and you'll find it isn't communism.

As I've mentioned above, there are no standards or benchmarks for waiters, or for that matter, cooks, bakers, butchers, or pastry Chefs. There are a lot of individual schools for these trades, but each school is it's own island, with it's own curriculum, own textbooks, and no set benchmark to follow, other than their own.

So how do you negotiate a fair wage with an employer if there are no qualifications available for that trade or profession? You can't, you rely on minimum wage and anticipate tips. But in many cases in individual States, minimum wage doesn't apply for servers, "someone" lobbied that State gov't to apply a "server's minimum wage" which is lower, much lower. Doesn't sound like communism to me.

As I wrote in a previous post on this thread, the same thing is now happening in Canada. Currently, a lobbying group is asking for a "server's minimum wage" that would be lower than the minimum wage, as the minimum wage will be going up--from $8.00 to the current $9.00, and will cap off at $10.00 by next summer.

A lot of the hospitality industry's problems can be traced back to a lack of qualifications and standards. A plethora of private schools flourish and have no guidlines to follow other than their own, the Unions have made no effort for benchmarks or qualifications either; anyone can open up a restaurant, no qualifications are needed, and it shows--90% of all places fail within the first year.

The result of all this? Hospitalty workers are one of the lowest paid groups, and there is so much fierce competition for the dining dollar that owners will do anything to sstay financially afloat.

[Jaymes]

Frankly, I hate the the whole 'waitress wages' thing, and cannot understand how it remains legal.

I've been told that everywhere in the US that an attempt has been made to abolish this practice and pay the waitstaff a "fairer" salary, it has been vigorously opposed by the very folks that are supposedly being harmed by the current policy.

Many servers say they prefer it this way. They believe that across the board, they make more money with tips than they would with a fixed salary. They do feel that if they're really good at their job, they make more money than someone that isn't. That, like most salesmen, they're in charge of their own remuneration and that it's commensurate with effort and ability. More work for more reward. And there's always the possibility of a big tip, kind of like winning a mini-lottery. They also enjoy going home with immediate cash, vs waiting two weeks until payday. As one server friend told me, I can go into any new town, get a job, and that night I'll have money in my pocket.

So who knows. I suppose like most things, there are pluses and minuses.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Jaymes (log)

[Edward J]

Yeah... I've heard all of that before.

Problem is, what the waiters want and what the customer wants are two different things, I guess.

Most tips here are on Visa, especially in the fine dining places. Waitstaff are pulling their tips out of the till end of shift, and it's true, they go home with cash. Meanwhile the owner has to wait untill the Visa cheque comes to get paid. Sound right?

[KatieLoeb]

The other reason the practice remains legal is that restaurateurs have a lot more political clout as business owners, employers and tax payers than the larger group of folks making a fraction of minimum wage.

[Edward J]

A-yup, that's the group that's pushing for a "server's minimum wage" here in B.C., time will tell if they succeed or not. Yad think by now they'd have figured out if you pay peanuts you get monekes. Oh well.

The O.P. of this thread hasn't responded for a while, maybe it's time to shut er down.