Advice Needed: Basil Ice Cream with Eggs /Cornstarch

[jfresch]

So I have been making a couple different batches of basil ice cream and have found that the batch I made with only eggs covered up the basil flavor. I then made a batch that uses only cornstarch ( no eggs) to thicken the ice cream base, the basil flavor really shined through but it was not as rich and smooth and the mouth feel wasn't optimal. I am thinking about cutting the amount of eggs in half from my original base and thickening it to the proper viscosity with a little bit of cornstarch. Any ideas on whether this would work / any advice? I saw some info about xantham and may try that but would prefer to avoid that ingredient for now.

Thanks.

Edited June 11, 2011 by jfresch (log)

[Emily_R]

I don't see why not. In terms of order of operations, I'd do eggs first, then cornstarch -- so I'd combine the eggs with the milk/cream first (heating the cream, pouring some in slowly to temper the eggs, then adding that tempered mix back to the full batch of cream)... And then would let that thicken just a smidge with the eggs in it, and pull out a cup or so, whisk in the cornstarch, and then blend that back into the full pot....

Let us know how it goes -- I've often felt similarly about the tradeoffs of each thickening method...

[TheTInCook]

You could also try lecithin or IIRC I think NF milk solids.

Or you could try using a Philadelphia style ice cream base. Don't think you'd need cornstarch for that.

[Darienne]

You could also try lecithin or IIRC I think NF milk solids.

Or you could try using a Philadelphia style ice cream base. Don't think you'd need cornstarch for that.

Some might think the Philadelphia style lacking in mouth feel. You don't need anything except cream (heavy, half & half) for that.

I have yet to use xanthan or any of the other thickeners/ stabilizers/ etc so can't comment. I'd try EmilyR's idea just to see what happens.

[paulraphael]

I'd do the cornstarch first, since it will be easier to disolve into thin milk than into custard. It will make it harder to tell when your custard thickens, because much of the thickening will already be done. But you won't have to worry about curdling the custard; the starch will make it very hard to do that.

But I'd rather ditch the starch entirely and use thickeners that work in smaller quantities and that mask flavors less.

In general, I find that I can't taste the eggs when there are only two eggs per quart (roughly 1000g of base). I don't like to taste eggs in ice cream so this is what I do. The rest of the mouth feel and melt can be controlled with a commercial ice cream stabilizer, or your own mix. I use gelatin and xanthan gum together. I much prefer the results to what you can get with any starch.

Edited June 13, 2011 by paulraphael (log)

[jfresch]

Can you tell me how much Xantham and Gelatin you use proportional to the ice cream base? Thanks for your help.

[paulraphael]

Right now, for a recipe that 1-1/2 cups whole milk and 1-1/2 cups cream (370g each)

I'm using 2 egg yolks, 1g gelatin, and 0.3g xanthan.

If you experiment with ratios, something to keep in mind is that gelatin melts at body temperature and gets harder as it get colder, while xanthan has very consistent thickening properties over a wide temperature range. This means that gelatin has a greater proportional effect on the frozen texture, and xanthan has a greater effect on the melted texture. So together they give you a lot of control.

Overdoing the xanthan will give you unusual textures (chewiness, gooeyness).

[Karri]

I would from a professional point of view rather place my question on the amount and way you are using the basil? You can extract so much flavor from Basil that you would taste it through anything.

[paulraphael]

I would from a professional point of view rather place my question on the amount and way you are using the basil? You can extract so much flavor from Basil that you would taste it through anything.

That's a good point. I infuse basil into creme anglaise which has many more eggs than any ice cream I make. The flavor comes through nicely.

Usually for herb flavors I find that 7 or 8g per kg of ice cream base gives good flavor.

I include stems (they add to the flavor), heat the milk to 180°F, and infuse the herbs for 30 minutes, covered. I then take them out and set aside. After the base is fully prepared, I put the herbs back in and let them sit in there overnight as the mix ages.

[mostlylana]

Right now, for a recipe that 1-1/2 cups whole milk and 1-1/2 cups cream (370g each)

I'm using 2 egg yolks, 1g gelatin, and 0.3g xanthan.

If you experiment with ratios, something to keep in mind is that gelatin melts at body temperature and gets harder as it get colder, while xanthan has very consistent thickening properties over a wide temperature range. This means that gelatin has a greater proportional effect on the frozen texture, and xanthan has a greater effect on the melted texture. So together they give you a lot of control.

Overdoing the xanthan will give you unusual textures (chewiness, gooeyness).

I made my first ice cream (vanilla) a few days ago in the KitchenAid attachment using the French Vanilla ice cream recipe from David Lebovitz. It was delicious but unfortunately the end result was icy. After much reading I've determined that the bowl wasn't cold enough. I gave it 14 hours in the deep freeze (they recommend a minimum of 15 hours). My reading also led me to an interesting formula that I want to try - a vanilla ice cream posted several years ago by you Paul! I see here that it looks like you've changed your formula somewhat. So no more cornstarch? What about Vodka and Milk Powder? I'll post the old recipe and perhaps you can coach me with the changes you've made? Can't wait to try it! Here it is...

Vanilla Ice Cream (really good!)

Serves 6 as Dessert.

I wanted to create an Ice Cream base with the smoothness, body, and stability of an egg yolk-ladden, very rich, custard-based Ice cream--but without the strong egg flavor or the greasy film that these Ice creams can leave in your mouth.

I turned to some of the tricks used by my favorite pastry chefs. There are two yolks per quart, instead of the usual six or more. There are also added milk solids, and very small amounts of gelatin, starch, and alcohol. The recipe is a bit more complex than typical homemade Ice cream, but I think it's worth it. It has a full body, a natural and creamy melt, and it will last several days in the freezer without deflating or getting icy. It will be a bit too hard to serve when it's at freezer temperature, but not rock-hard like typical home recipes.

This recipe will work best with a slow-turning machine that doesn't introduce a lot of air (overrun). It will give you between 3/4 and 1 quart of 15% butterfat Ice cream.

You can replace the Vanilla with the seasoning of your choice. You can also increase or decrease the amount of fat by changing the proportion of milk to cream. I like to use less fat with fruit flavored Ice creams, and much less fat with chocolate.

•1-1/2 c Whole Milk* (367g)

•1 tsp Cornstarch (2.8g)

•1 Vanilla bean (I like Madagascar, but Mexican is also good)

•3/4 c minus 1 TB Granulated Sugar (128g)

•2-1/2 T Nonfat Dry Milk** (25g)

•1/3 tsp Powdered Gelatin (1g)

•1 pinch Salt (1g)

•2 Egg Yolks (36g)

•1-1/2 c Heavy Cream* (358g)

•2 tsp Vodka or alcohol-based Vanilla extract (10g)

-Make slurry with cornstarch and a small portion of the milk

-Add cornstarch slurry to 1/2 of the milk and bring to a light simmer in a saucepan. Stir until it thickens.

-Add the rest of the milk. Stir and heat just until it steams (about 180 degrees F). While it's warming up, split the Vanilla bean lengthwise and scrape the seeds into the milk with the tip of a finger or paring knife. Add the bean pod to the milk. When the mixture reaches temperature, remove from heat. let it sit covered for 30 minutes.

-Whisk yolks until pale (optional—to diminish yellow color of base)

-Remove Vanilla bean from milk and set aside. Thoroughly mix the dry milk, powdered gelatin, and salt into sugar. Whisk this mixture into the milk.

-Temper yolks with a portion of the warm milk and pour the milk / yolks back into the saucepan.

-Cook over medium heat, stirring constantly and scraping the bottom and corners with a spatula until the custard thickens (about 180 to 185 degrees).*** Turn down heat and continue stirring vigorously for 15 seconds, then remove from heat and stir another 15 seconds.

-Pour the custard into the heavy cream. Stir in the vodka or extract. Put the Vanilla bean back in. Chill thoroughly, at least 8 hours. If making a large quantity (more than 1 quart) chill in an Ice bath before refrigerating.

-Strain with a fine strainer or chinois (important). Rinse and reserve Vanilla bean for something else. Freeze the mix in your Ice Cream maker. With a mulitispeed machine, start on slowest speed. At end when Ice Cream firms up and begins to expand, raise speed until you get the volume you want (this recipe works best with a low overrun).

-Harden for several hours (ideally overnight) in a cold freezer. If you can set your freezer to -5 degrees F or lower, you'll get better results. Ice Cream will have to warm up several degrees before serving. 20 to 30 minutes in the fridge works well. Ideal serving temperature is 5 to 10 degrees F.

[paulraphael]

Hi Mostlylana. yes, I've changed the recipe a few times since then. I'm always learning new tricks (I'm on version 16 right now ...). Where did you find that one? I don't even remember making it quite like that.

I'm still using dry milk powder (it's a revelation) and 2 yolks per quart. No more corn starch (using gelatin and xanthan, as described earlier) and no alcohol (controlling hardness through the sugars ... now use a mix of granulated sugar, dextrose and trimoline).

I'm away from home right now; I'll try to check soon and see if my latest version is online somewhere.

[mostlylana]

I'm away from home right now; I'll try to check soon and see if my latest version is online somewhere.

Wonderful - thanks! I must admit, I changed the David Lebovitz recipe to add some invert sugar. Silly really as I have no clue what I'm doing in regards to ice cream...

I found your recipe here on eG - in the recipe section. In nosing around all of the ice cream posts, I noticed that you are somewhat of an ice cream master! If you have an ice cream book recommendation I would love to know of it. I'm particulariy interested in the science behind it so I can learn to play. One that came up is 'The Science of Ice Cream' by Clarke. Do you know of it?

[Darienne]

In nosing around all of the ice cream posts, I noticed that you are somewhat of an ice cream master!

Paul is my ice cream hero!!! :wub:

[paulraphael]

Books are tough; I don't have any that are particularly educational. David Lebowitz's is great for flavor ideas, but the techniques and base recipes are very simple homestyle ones, and there's no technical information on how to manipulate textures and adjust formulas.

There's a professional book that came out a few years back that got glowing reviews, but last i checked it was very expensive and only in Italian.

I'd be curious to hear other people's recommendations. I haven't had a chance to check out the CIA frozen desserts text.

I've gotten my best information from online sources, including chef blogs, and by bugging pastry chefs. And of course, from finding excuses to experiment and then eat the data.

I am beyond flattered to be anyone's ice cream hero. But my hero is Wallace Stevens:

The Emperor of Ice-Cream

Call the roller of big cigars,


The muscular one, and bid him whip


In kitchen cups concupiscent curds. 


Let the wenches dawdle in such dress 


As they are used to wear, and let the boys


Bring flowers in last month's newspapers.


Let be be finale of seem.


The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream.

Take from the dresser of deal, 


Lacking the three glass knobs, that sheet 


On which she embroidered fantails once 


And spread it so as to cover her face.


If her horny feet protrude, they come 


To show how cold she is, and dumb.


Let the lamp affix its beam. 


The only emperor is the emperor of ice-cream.

[Darienne]

Paul is correct in my view. I have two ice cream books: the Perfect Scoop and also Ice Cream: the Whole Scoop which I bought very early in my learning curve, before I had any experience. I wouldn't buy it now, although I am not meaning to belittle the writer. It has a lot of good recipes, but not much useful information.

My goal, as always, is to understand the process and make it my own first and foremost, although I don't aspire to the heights which many on this forum do. Not at all.

The key is actually making lots of ice cream. That,and all the information I have picked up online here and there, on ice cream blogs, on eGullet, and of course, from asking Paul a lot of questions when I was first starting out. He was patient and generous, and that in my books makes him a terrific mentor.

(We do give away a lot of ice cream. It's truly a win-win situation.)

[mkayahara]

I have the CIA Frozen Desserts book, and while it provides some interesting information, it's very textbook-style in a "here's how you do it, and this is the only right way" sense. It includes formulations for sorbet and ice cream stabilizers but not, as far as I remember, on why they're formulated that way. It's a great next step after The Perfect Scoop, but may not go far enough into the science for some.

[mostlylana]

Dear Emperor ...

Well I've done lots more reading and I'm ready to try my second batch of ice cream. I checked my bowl in the freezer and it's frozen solid (unlike the last time - it still had some slush going on - woops...) I have a few questions before I start...

I'm making my base in the Thermomix so have no need to fuss over the custard base. In the Thermomix ice cream recipes you put all the ingredients in the Thermomix, set to to 80C and go! My question is about the xanthan gum. I notice that most professional recipes add the stabilizer to the custard and it's cooked. I'm wondering if I can do that with the xanthan? On a technical page I found, it said that it is heat stable and unlike starch will not continue to thicken. It keeps it's properties regardless of heat. So I'm thinking I can go ahead and heat it?? What I would like to do is blend the sugar, destrose, salt, gelatin and xanthan in the Thermomix and then add the remaining ingredients. That seems like a good way to disperse it to me... Any thoughts?

I'm going to stick to your proportions pretty closely. In searching out other professional recipes, I've come up with the proportion of 1/2c. white sugar, 1/4 cup dextrose and 1 tbsp. invert sugar for the sweeteners. Does this sound reasonable to you?

Also, I notice that most professional recipes use more milk powder than your original recipe states. Mind you, they are also using a higher ratio of milk to cream. Are you still using 25g. per 1-1/2 cups milk / 1-1/2 cups cream? I worked out my % of solids and it works perfectly with this amount - but I still have room to go higher.

Oh and for anyome interested (although most of you ice cream fans probably already know about this...), I found this great butterfat calculator. So easy to use!

http://www.icecreamgeek.com/?page_id=817

[paulraphael]

1. I make no claims to being the Emperor of Ice Cream!

2. My latest, post-colonial recipe is here: www.under-belly.org/recipes/vanilla_ice_cream.pdf

(sorry for not using the link function ... for some reason HTML is not working)

Edited July 17, 2011 by paulraphael (log)

[Darienne]

Thanks for the recipe, Paul. I am ready to give it a go.

As to not being able to access the 'link' function...I was unable to even access eG as of yesterday afternoon.)

[mostlylana]

My latest, post-colonial recipe is here: www.under-belly.org/recipes/vanilla_ice_cream.pdf

Thanks so much for the recipe Paul! I had made the ice-cream prior to seeing your recipe (I, too, couldn't access eG??). It turned out great. I also added a tsp. of vanilla extract at the end. Perfect texture - very scoopable. I did whiz up the xanthan gum with everything else at the beginning of the recipe. I then added all of the milk and the yolks and processed it in the Thermomix. No problems - and very easy. I had more sugar in my recipe than yours. I will try it again with the reduced amount of sugar - I found it a bit too sweet and the texture was soft enough to allow a reduction. I already want a professional ice cream machine though.

I found a great article on stabilizers in ice cream: http://www.lucidgroup.com/knowledge-center/stabilizer.pdf

I'd like to try locust bean gum one of these days. Has anyone tried it?