Drinking Wine That Is Too Old

[marcus]

Jaybee -- just saw your latest post. The issue is not $1 versus $6 dollars, that is just inflation, but how much that dollar could have earned if it were invested. Also, there is no reason to believe that the value of fine wines will continue to increase at the same rate. There was a historical revision in values that will probably not be repeated.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Jaybee - Do we have a source for Romarantin for you! I know Astor Place has two Romarantins in stock including a $40 whopper. I opted for the cheaper one which was like $15. I assume that Chambers Street has them as well.

Marcus - I haven't had '66 Latour for about 4 years and based on your recommendation I will try one soon. But the last time I tried it was so closed it was undrinkable.

I have to say that I buy a lot of wine at auction. I think the good to bad wine ratio is about 80/20 in favor of good. Obviously the older the wines are the higher the likelihood of the wine being bad. But I don't think bad storage is the most likely culprit. Sure you get bottles that have been mistreated but usually not to the extent that the wine is ruined. I find the most likely scenario is that it is further along in maturing then wine that was properly stored. But the real enemy is bad corks. Sometimes the corks aren't milled properly and they are a hair off and it screws up the wine. I bought a case of 1985 Roumier Clos Vougeot at auction about 2 years ago. I drank through 7 bottles and each one was perfectly mature and glorious. But I brought bottle number 8 to lunch at Chanterelle last month to celebrate a friends birthday and it was shot. Completely gone. No fruit and the taste of wet tea leaves. Blech. Then the very next bottle was back to its old self. There was no reason for bottle 8 which came from a case that was stored perfectly to be a bad bottle other then the cork was imperefect.

As for the present day value of your money versus buying wine later, I think there is an intangable to owning your own wine from day 1 that you don't get from buying older wine at auction. Aside from the benefits of drinking wine, there are a few benefits from being a wine collector. First of all, there is the obvious collectoritis that sets in. That encompasses making lists of what to buy, to spinning those ancient bottles in your cellar. But if you use the British method of purchasing wine which is, buy twice as much as you need and then sell off the excess for huge profits, you drink for free. Some math wiz should work that out for us

Edited December 17, 2002 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[jaybee]

Jaybee -- just saw your latest post. The issue is not $1 versus $6 dollars, that is just inflation, but how much that dollar could have earned if it were invested. Also, there is no reason to believe that the value of fine wines will continue to increase at the same rate. There was a historical revision in values that will probably not be repeated.

That is not the issue I was responding to, Marcus. It was the statement Tony made that the prices paid could have bought a small car "back then." (Sounds like the olden days). My point is that even at $50 a bottle in today's $$, my cellared wines are a great buy. I care less about the resale value or "investment" value of the $8 spent then. I could not afford to drink so much great wine from these vintages at today's prices, not to mention the confidence I have in their storage. Fortunately, I was making good money in my early 30s so I could afford to put a good cellar down.

I spent, maybe $5,000 in 1969-1972 on wines I cellared. That would be like a $30-40,000 cellar today, but for $40,000 you'd have many fewer bottles of the greatest wines than I was able to buy then. Had I invested the $5,000, what would it be worth today, and would I be able to buy as many bottles of the same vintage great wines as I did? Since futures have gotten so high, it is impossible to duplicate this today, so the debate is near-moot, isn't it?

[Tonyfinch]

That is not the issue I was responding to, Marcus.  It was the statement Tony made that the prices paid could have bought a small car "back then."

Pedantic correction here . It was Stephen T making that point, not me.

[StephenT]

That is not the issue I was responding to, Marcus.  It was the statement Tony made that the prices paid could have bought a small car "back then."

Pedantic correction here . It was Stephen T making that point, not me.

Yep it was me. I was still a couple of months away from being a glint in my father's eye 30 years ago so don't have much appreciation of how prices and values have changed between then and now.

[jaybee]

QUOTE (Tonyfinch @ Dec 17 2002, 08:32 AM)

QUOTE (jaybee,Dec 17 2002, 03:56 AM)

That is not the issue I was responding to, Marcus.  It was the statement Tony made that the prices paid could have bought a small car "back then."

Pedantic correction here . It was Stephen T making that point, not me.

Yep it was me. I was still a couple of months away from being a glint in my father's eye 30 years ago so don't have much appreciation of how prices and values have changed between then and now.

I stand corrected.

To get an idea of equivalent US $ purchasing power from 1970 to 2001, multiply every dollar you spent in 1970 by 4.56 to see its 2001 equivalent. So a $10 bottle in 1970 is the equal of a $46 bottle today. A gross annual income (before taxes) of $50,000 in 1970 = $228,000 in 2001. So my $5,000 1970 cellar is the equivalent of $23,000 today, just $ for $. You can do the conversion to pound sterling.

[SFJoe]

SF Joe, I love Romarantin.  We enjoyed this wine in the Sologne several years ago and have not been able to find any here.  Do you know a source?

Jaybee,

Steve has steered you well. Chambers St. Wines and Astor are the two places that leap to mind in NYC and probably the US. David Lillie at CSW and Jeff Connell at Astor are good guys who travel every year to the Loire and really know their stuff. As you probably know, Romorantin is most commonly available as Cour-Cheverny, but also in some more general appellations.

In the theme of this thread, no one that I'm aware of has well-aged Romorantin to sell. The stuff is much, much better with some time on it.

Marionnet (famous Loire winemaker) has some extremely old Romorantin vines planted in sandy soil on their own roots. The vines actually predate the introduction of phylloxera to Europe. He makes one barrel of wine each year from this small plot, called "Provignage." Steve somewhat underestimated the cost, however. I have a few bottles of this put away from the current release (2000), but I don't expect to try one for 10 years. I had a glass a few months ago and it is a complete monolith.

I hope you find some things that you'll enjoy.

Joe

[marcus]

Has anyone seen any N. Joly, Savennieres, Coulee de Serrant, at any NYC wineshop. This wine, which I find very interesting, almost never appears at auction.

[SFJoe]

Coulee de Serrant has had problems with their importers, and are rather badly distributed in the US. I'm not sure of the current situation, but the wine comes and goes in the market. I'd call the usual Loire suspects and ask them: Chambers St. Wines, Astor, or Garnet in NYC.

It *is* an interesting wine, although perhaps not all it could be.

[MartyL]

There are also some bottles of either the 90 or 91 Coulee de Serrant in 67 Wine & Spirits, of all places. I wouldn't recommend it though. The bottle I bought there was awful. Not sure whether the wine was terrible to begin with or whether the bottle was mishandled, but either way I would steer clear.

[jaybee]

Marionnet (famous Loire winemaker) has some extremely old Romorantin vines planted in sandy soil on their own roots. The vines actually predate the introduction of phylloxera to Europe. He makes one barrel of wine each year from this small plot, called "Provignage." Steve somewhat underestimated the cost, however. I have a few bottles of this put away from the current release (2000), but I don't expect to try one for 10 years. I had a glass a few months ago and it is a complete monolith.

Thanks Joe. I located some of the Marionnet 2000 @ $60. I also bought 1/2 case of another grower's for $30. The wine I drank and loved came from the town of Romorantin, served to us as an aperitif in the primo hotel there.

It was strikingly good and refreshing. I know Cour Cheverny well, and have a couple of cases in my cellar.

Thanks.

[marcus]

MartyL -- You give with one hand and take away with the other. 90 is the great year, and although Savennieres is long maturing, it should be approaching drinkability. 91 on the other hand was not good at all. Have you tried Savennieres elsewhere, it is made from Chenin Blanc, but tastes quite different from the other Loire's made from this grape. Do you believe that it has been mishandled, or do you just not like the style. Back in the 1920s, Savennieres was considered the equivalent of top white Burgundies.

[MartyL]

Marcus, I just checked the 67 Wines website and indeed it is the 91, a "difficult" vintage, as they say, for Chenin.

I had picked up this bottle and brought it to a friend's house on the occasion of a potluck gathering in honor of Bastille Day with the theme of Savennieres and Vouvray (only in NY! )

A friend's amusing notes on the gathering can be found at the link below:

http://www.wineloverspage.com/user_submitt.../tn_270972.html

I like Loire Chenin a lot, but I confess I'm more of a Vouvray kind of guy. Sometimes the oxidative style that you see in most Savennieres gets to be too much for me.

[SFJoe]

Thanks Joe.  I located some of the Marionnet 2000 @ $60.  I also bought 1/2 case of another grower's for $30.....

Hey, jaybee, I hope the wines are everything you were looking for.

marcus,

Coulee de serrant has the best terroir in the appellation (one of the most impressive vineyard sites in the world, frankly), but they do not always have the best vines nor the best cellar work. The wines do not always do credit to the spectacular hillside where the grapes grow, which is very sad. There are a number of good winemakers doing good work in Savenierres, beyond Joly. Most of them sell at a significant discount to Joly, too.

All of which is not to say that I wouldn't or don't buy CdS, but in Savenierres it pays to branch out.

[marcus]

SFJoe -- I appreciate the insights, what other Savennieres winemakers do you recommend. The 1990 Joly is legendary, and I was unable to find any when traveling extensively through the area a couple of years ago, even at the restaurant of the Grand Monarque Hotel in Chartres, which has the best collection of Loire wines that I know of.

[SFJoe]

what other Savennieres winemakers do you recommend.

It shouldn't be too hard to find good wines from Perrieres, Baumard and Closel. I'm less fond of Kermit Lynch's Epire, but it's not bad.

Chambers St. Wines has representatives from each of the first 3 producers on their website currently (all for 1/3 the price of CdS).

Very interesting wine, often delicious. Unlikely ever to be a popular favorite, I'm afraid.

[MartyL]

Speaking of Savennieres, and Chateau d'Epire in particular, the current winebid auction includes a few lots of D'Epire's Savennieres from 1989 and 1990. Some of the bottles apparently have stained labels and some ullage, but at $15 or $20 a pop, this isn't necessarily a bad gamble for all you Savenniere-hounds. Link to the Loire Whites section of the auction follows below:

http://www.winebid.com/cgi-bin/osa/ViewPag...ategoryCode=ZL7