Turkey Brining

[sanrensho]

I have never Brined nor "Pre-Salted" . I was dead set on brining the birds this year but now that ive read and seen the results on the "Pre-salting" Im now second guessing the brine....     So my question is how do I pre-salt .....and has anyone pre salted a turkey if so what were the results ?    Thanks in advance for any advice .

Benny

Looking at my notes this year (Canadian Thanksgiving), I pre-salted a 12 lb natural turkey with 7 tsp of fine sea salt plus 1/4 tsp of pepper. Turkey was washed, dried, rubbed with S&P (concentrating on thicker areas of meat), and left uncovered in the fridge overnight.

I don't roast a lot of turkeys, but I thought it was the best turkey I've ever had, and my guests were impressed as well. I thought the amount of salt was just right, and the meat was still moist even though I overcooked the bird because of starting too early.

I would use this method again in a heartbeat.

[meicjos41]

I'm planning on doing a pre-salted turkey this year, and just wanted to see if everyone is trussing their birds. I've always trussed chickens, but haven't thought to truss a turkey. So do all of you truss the turkey?

[ray goud]

I'm surprised no one has recently mentioned the article by Harold McGee in the NYT about brining turkeys, and how to avoid it. Here's the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/dining/1...ld+mcgee&st=nyt

It appeared Nov. 12, 2008, last week. One might ask why anyone brines at all. Especially when a turkey can be cooked in pieces, for less than half the time of a whole turkey, and stay moist.

Ray

[Lindacakes]

The only turkey I ever made that I didn't like was brined. Lots of mess for that.

Slow cooking instead.

[Alcuin]

I'm surprised no one has recently mentioned the article by Harold McGee in the NYT about brining turkeys, and how to avoid it. Here's the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/dining/1...ld+mcgee&st=nyt

It appeared Nov. 12, 2008, last week. One might ask why anyone brines at all. Especially when a turkey can be cooked in pieces, for less than half the time of a whole turkey, and stay moist.

Ray

←

I really like Harold McGee, but I often find his NYT articles a bit simplistic. Why does he assume that there's only one singular brining method that always results in the same salty meat? If it's too salty, you left it in the brine too long. If it's too sweet, you added too much sweetener. I wouldn't brine for days and days as he suggests; that's how you get over salty, waterlogged meat. You have to brine according to the size and shape of your protein and tweak the brine according to what you're after. Then, it can highlight some of the meat's flavors or subtly introduce some other flavors (such as garlic, sage, rosemary, lemon juice, juniper, etc.) into the protein.

I get that some people don't like brined meat but it's not a monolithic thing. It's a technique like others and is useful sometimes for its effects (the most important of which, for me, is not ability to overcook and not worry, it's about the flavor). But, like other techniques, it needs adaptation of method to result in the desired effect.

[slkinsey]

Not to mention that McGee's solution is, more or less, "go ahead and let the breast dry out, then lubricate it with gravy."

[paulraphael]

Not to mention that McGee's solution is, more or less, "go ahead and let the breast dry out, then lubricate it with gravy."

←

I think there are better solutions that the one McGee proposes (you don't have to overcook the breast; you can protect it by barding, for example).

But I agree with him on brining. The science supports him. You can brine for less time, or in a weaker solution, but then you're really just doing surface seasoning. To get the real benefits of brining, which necessarily come with the real drawbacks, it takes a long time for big bird.

Edited November 24, 2008 by paulraphael (log)

[FoodMan]

I'm surprised no one has recently mentioned the article by Harold McGee in the NYT about brining turkeys, and how to avoid it. Here's the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/dining/1...ld+mcgee&st=nyt

It appeared Nov. 12, 2008, last week. One might ask why anyone brines at all. Especially when a turkey can be cooked in pieces, for less than half the time of a whole turkey, and stay moist.

Ray

←

I really like Harold McGee, but I often find his NYT articles a bit simplistic. Why does he assume that there's only one singular brining method that always results in the same salty meat? If it's too salty, you left it in the brine too long. If it's too sweet, you added too much sweetener. I wouldn't brine for days and days as he suggests; that's how you get over salty, waterlogged meat. You have to brine according to the size and shape of your protein and tweak the brine according to what you're after. Then, it can highlight some of the meat's flavors or subtly introduce some other flavors (such as garlic, sage, rosemary, lemon juice, juniper, etc.) into the protein.

I get that some people don't like brined meat but it's not a monolithic thing. It's a technique like others and is useful sometimes for its effects (the most important of which, for me, is not ability to overcook and not worry, it's about the flavor). But, like other techniques, it needs adaptation of method to result in the desired effect.

←

Exactly! A 12-18 hour brine produces a juicy, not salty and delicious roasted bird. Leaving it much more than that produces a turkey similar to the one you buy at the deli counter. Year after year I roast a brined turkey (breast temp of 160F) and the results are always perfect. No one ever complained of a salty or "hammy" turkey. Usually the guests are surprised how juicy the breast meat is.

[John DePaula]

A friend of mine has asked the following:

I plan to brine the turkey using a flavored brine (citrus and herbs de provence) this year.  But, I was also interested in roasting the turkey with the black truffle butter rubbed under the skin (the Gourmet '08 Over the Top menu).  Do you think the two treatments would be compatible, or should I skip one or the other, or possibly just use a simple brine, with salt and some sugar, or ????

What would you recommend?

Edited November 25, 2008 by John DePaula (log)

[get in my belly]

I have never Brined nor "Pre-Salted" . I was dead set on brining the birds this year but now that ive read and seen the results on the "Pre-salting" Im now second guessing the brine....     So my question is how do I pre-salt .....and has anyone pre salted a turkey if so what were the results ?    Thanks in advance for any advice .

Benny

Looking at my notes this year (Canadian Thanksgiving), I pre-salted a 12 lb natural turkey with 7 tsp of fine sea salt plus 1/4 tsp of pepper. Turkey was washed, dried, rubbed with S&P (concentrating on thicker areas of meat), and left uncovered in the fridge overnight.

I don't roast a lot of turkeys, but I thought it was the best turkey I've ever had, and my guests were impressed as well. I thought the amount of salt was just right, and the meat was still moist even though I overcooked the bird because of starting too early.

I would use this method again in a heartbeat.

←

Great Shanrensho Ill be Rockin my Turkey that way for sure . After much research and a few pork chops I brined the other day seems the salted method is the best . Ill post a pic of the bird on thursday .

[sanrensho]

Great Shanrensho Ill be Rockin my Turkey that way for sure . After much research and a few pork chops I brined the other day seems the salted method is the best . Ill post a pic of the bird on thursday . 

I hope it works for you, please let us know if you like the results from presalting (and what kind of bird you cooked).

[Jean Blanchard]

I usually brine my turkey but this year, I have a frozen turkey with salt added. I think it says 8%. I'm thinking that if I brine, it will be too salty. Any experience?

[klkruger]

If the idea is to use a straight brine--i.e., a salt- or salt-and-sugar only brine--then there is no point to brining. If the idea is to use a flavored brine then you can still do so. Use ~1/3 cup Morton kosher/gallon. (Adjust if using a different salt and adjust based on liquid volume.)

Edited November 26, 2008 by klkruger (log)

[AmyKay]

For the last few Thanksgivings, I have brined a turkey breast following Alton Brown's recipe (which adds flavor, not just sodium). I have not been attentive enough to notice the sodium content on the breasts I've purchased, but I always by them frozen and they almost certainly have had some sodium added. They are always great.

[Jean Blanchard]

I use his recipe also and I love the results so I think I'll just go ahead and brine again this year. Thanks!

[Octaveman]

Everything that I've read says to use 1 cup of salt to every gallon of water. If using Morton's Kosher salt lower to 3/4 cup per gallon. The recipe that I've used year after year says exactly this.

I also add:

1.5 cups sugar

1/4 cup peppercorns, cracked

15 all spice cracked

15 Juniper berries cracked

15 whole cloves

4 bay leaves

1 tsp dried thyme.

Add to a quart of water and bring to a boil then simmer for 5 minutes. Add this to the remaining 3 quarts of water. I did the brine this morning before leaving for work today. Smells wonderful.

edited to fix wording

Edited November 26, 2008 by Octaveman (log)

[paulraphael]

Everything that I've read says to use 1 cup of salt to every gallon of water.  If using Morton's Kosher salt lower to 3/4 cup per gallon. 

kosher salt is less dense than table salt, so you want to use a greater volume, not a lower one.

[Octaveman]

Doh! I missread what I read. Yes, add more Kosher salt. You can use whatever amount you'd like really. More salt means less brineing time, less salt means more brineing time.

[Dave the Cook]

Unless you brine a lot, you'll get more predictable results by using a consistent formula (weigh it -- 70 g salt per quart -- and you won't have to worry about what kind of salt you're using) and varying the brine time according to target shape, size and density.

[chappie]

You've got to look up last year's Saveur turkey recipe that called for brining with lots (couple of heads) of garlic pureed, cider and cayenne pepper as flavorings. Best turkey I ever made (and ate) and I used a last-minute, injected store-bought bird.

Ed: Here's a link to the recipe and method: http://www.saveur.com/article/Food/Crisp-A...-Calvados-Gravy

Edited November 27, 2008 by chappie (log)

[jgm]

I'm dealing with a minor disaster today.

I did a lot of research on brining, since this is my first year to do the whole meal. I used the Williams-Sonoma brine mix, which has about 2 1/2 cups of salt, along with the usual poultry spices, plus dehydrated apples, lemon rind, star anise, and juniper berries. I followed the directions on the jar, using a total of 2 1/2 gallons of water. (Apple cider was an option, but I didn't choose it because I didn't think my family would like it.) I brined the bird for about 20 hours. It was a Honeysuckle White bird containing an 8% solution.

The dark meat is so salty it's inedible. The white meat is salty but will be okay, because I will make a gravy with very little salt. A couple of nights ago, I roasted some wings and thighs so that I could make stock, and I saved the meat and the drippings, so I can serve the non-salty meat along with the salty breast meat, and make gravy from the drippings from the wings and thighs. (Fortunately, only four of us will be at our TG meal.)

Moral of the story: If you use a bird that already has a salt solution, you can still brine, but make it a very dilute brine. W-S publishes a buttermilk brine recipe that I'll likely try at Christmas. I may also bite the bullet and spring for a fresh bird rather than a frozen one.

Fortunately, I make a damn good pumpkin pie. . .

[lancastermike]

In the interest of this discussion, yesterday I made a brined 15 pound turkey and also an un-brined breast.

The brined bird produced perfectly done dark meat and moist breast meat. The dark meat was perfect, and I will say the moist white meat was a little salty, not terribly so, but noticeable.

The un-brined breast meat was fine as well, nowhere near as moist as the brined.

The scientists amongst us will say this experiment is not a valid one as the conditions were not the same. I simply did not have room to do two whole turkeys which would provide a true test. As I think the scientists would say, too many uncontrolled variables.

The gravy, made from the drippings of the whole bird was very good. Not at all salty.

I prefer the dark meat of the turkey. Brining the bird allows me to get the dark meat done and keeping moist breast meat.

This year, for reasons beyond my control, I did not make my usual smoked turkey in the outdoor cooker. I always brine for the smoker. Going only by memory, I think the brined and smoked breast meat is better. A little less moist. But perfectly done.

The debate continues. For those that just don't like the brining method, or who reject the science of it, the solution seems to be to make a deconstructed turkey.

To do a whole turkey and get both perfectly done white and dark meat seems to be simply blind luck without employing various tricks

It was all pretty damn good to me and I got lots of leftovers

[jgm]

After my salty disaster (above), Friday brings an opportunity for redemption.

Background: at this time -- perhaps not permanently -- my parents are in a nursing home. Plan A was to make turkey, dressing, gravy, mashed potatoes, sweet potatoes, cranberry sauce, pumpkin pie with whipped cream, and rolls, and take it to them.

After dealing with the disappointment of the salty turkey, I prepared to make the gravy and the mashed potatoes. I preheated the oven to bake the rolls.

The phone rang. The nurse at the home said my mother was experiencing an arrhythmia and needed to go to the hospital. That was about 4:00. The next 5 hours were a blur of telephone calls to try to find which hospital my mother had been taken to, discussions with doctors, discussions with family, and longing glances at vending machines in hospital hallways. At 9:00 p.m., Mom was back from the hospital, not much worse for the wear, and we were dining on a take-out meal from the restaurant inside the nearby Hyatt, the only place I could think of that might still be open. In the middle of the meal, Mom very casually dropped a bomb about a particular (extremely ominous) symptom my father has started experiencing. On the way home, I called my sister, asked her to get in touch with our father's doctor, and contemplated eating the entire pumpkin pie when I got home. I might have, but I would have had to whip the cream, and I had no energy for that.

We stopped on the way home, also, and picked up another turkey -- a fresh one, on sale for a very reasonable price, and after I finish this post I'll get it ready to put in the oven. The plan was for a turkey breast, but they had only one bone-in breast, and it was frozen solid and we weren't sure we could get it thawed in time.

Plan B now begins with an un-brined fresh turkey. If I have the energy, I'll post the results tonight. . .

[paulraphael]

The brined bird produced perfectly done dark meat and moist breast meat. The dark meat was perfect, and I will say the moist white meat was a little salty, not terribly so, but noticeable.

The un-brined breast meat was fine as well, nowhere near as moist as the brined.

The real question is, to what temperature did you cook both breasts?

White meat dries out because it gets overcooked; brining, in addition to pumping extra water into the meat, gives it some additional resistance to overcooking.

But after preparing dozens of chickens both with and without brine, and with the breast meat cooked to the correct temperature (close to 20 degrees lower than what the FDA recommends) I can say that I prefer unbrined. The brined white meat is still a bit juicier, but the extra juices taste like salt, not like chicken (or turkey). Even when brining is done carefully, and the results aren't objectionably salty, there's still the impression that the natural flavor of the bird has been diluted.

The real trick is cooking the breasts properly. Deconstructing the bird is one solution. Protecting the breasts from heat during a portion of the cooking process is another. Chilling the breasts before cooking is yet another.

I prefer portecting the breasts, using methods based on barding. This year's turkey had the breasts covered with bacon and foil for half the cooking time. After resting, breast meat was 145 to 150 degrees, dark meat was 160 to 165.

Edited November 28, 2008 by paulraphael (log)

[jgm]

Yesterday's turkey reprise was a success. No brining, nothing fancy, just a fresh turkey in a roasting pan. I did undercook it, unintentionally. Somehow I just don't seem to be able to get the thermometer inserted to the right place. So after discovering the problem, I dismantled the bird at the joints, put everything on a sheet pan, covered with foil, and baked at 350 for half an hour. Very good meat, both light and dark.